COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

[UKMikey]

Lockdowns are for countries with leadership who act quickly and decisively, and can lead their people in a spirit of mutual cooperation.

We humans have a limited tolerance, influenced by culture and empathetic leadership. Even the Kiwis were getting restive and they have the advantage of sensible leadership.

Here in America, we have (to put it politely) "erratic leadership" and adoption of the motto "Live Free AND Die".

Once the genie is out of the bottle, lives and livelihoods will be damaged.

NZ has reached 4 deaths per million
USA has reached 389 deaths per million

Elections matter.

View attachment 936585 View attachment 936586

In addition to firm and decisive leadership and a more aquiescent population those Kiwis also have the geographic advantage of being way, way off the beaten track as far as international travel is concerned. I'm sure this was also a factor in helping to limit the spread of infection.

We in the UK have neither of course.

I just received a bunch of PPE in the post... disposable masks, gloves, a digital thermometer and a tiny bottle of hand sanitiser. It looks like my ex-firm ordered some for everyone in the company and it took so long to deliver that no-one told them I'd been made redundant in the meantime. Beats a carriage clock as far as retirement gifts go, I guess.

I just talked to the guy who replaced me. His wife and baby daughter have been stuck in Uganda since March. Hopefully they'll be reunited by the end of the month.

 

[Joey D]

The Harvard Global Health Institute, Harvard's Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, Rockefeller Foundation, CovidActNow, Covid-Local, and CIDRAP have released a new dashboard that shows COVID-19 risk broken down by US counties.

COVID Risk Levels Dashboard

It gives a pretty good look at where the hot spots are instead of just going by state. Not exactly Earth-shattering but many of the hot spots are in highly populated areas with few restrictions. NPR did a write up about the dashboard this morning and breaks it down a little better. What's interesting is that out of all the states, only two are on track to contain the virus according to this tool. Both Hawaii and Vermont are doing remarkably well. I get Hawaii since it's an island and the demand for tourism right now is very low, but I'm not really sure about Vermont.

One thing is really clear though, Arizona, Florida, and Mississippi are fairly screwed at the moment with South Carolina knocking at the door.

**There's a "hug of death" going on with the website right now since people a flocking to it. You may or may not be able to access it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Anecdote: A tradesman was here recently and reported that he had a serious case of "the flu" in December 2019, and recent testing shows he has SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. He was on flights between Boston and Honolulu shortly prior to that infection.

More anecdotally the two GPs in my family say that antibodies don't seem to be lasting more than 2-3 months, possible he's had another exposure in that time?

 

[noshog]

Both.

I don't really know if I would consider NZ a rich country ? .... I do know that one way or another we will be paying for the lock down for a very long time to come... probably my kids will still be paying for this well into their adult life (they are only 4 and 6 years old right now).

 

[Danoff]

I don't really know if I would consider NZ a rich country ? .... I do know that one way or another we will be paying for the lock down for a very long time to come... probably my kids will still be paying for this well into their adult life (they are only 4 and 6 years old right now).

Compared to Pakistan?

 

[UKMikey]

Compared to Pakistan?

Pakistan has a bigger GDP than NZ. Per capita however, it's a far different story.

 

[Blitz24]

Pakistan has a bigger GDP than NZ. Per capita however, it's a far different story.

Doesn't Iran, Singapore, Israel and Bangladesh as well?

 

[Keef]

Ahhh, Covid. I think we should coin the term "to covid" which means "to have a mental breakdown when you realize a decade of effort to become a certified professional has resulted in utter failure and you have to consider giving up on your life's purpose throughout that time and finding a new one before your savings run out just to pay the bills."

 

[UKMikey]

Doesn't Iran, Singapore, Israel and Bangladesh as well?

Doesn't Iran, Singapore, Israel and Bangladesh as well?

I don't understand your point, no matter how many times you make it. We were asked to compare NZ to Pakistan.

 

[Barra333]

I don't really know if I would consider NZ a rich country ? .... I do know that one way or another we will be paying for the lock down for a very long time to come... probably my kids will still be paying for this well into their adult life (they are only 4 and 6 years old right now).

In the global order, NZ is indeed a rich country. Everywhere will be paying for this for a generation or more.

 

[CSLACR]

In a shocking turn of events, coronavirus cases rise after mass gatherings of protesters across the nation. Fear not though, the additional infections are not, in fact cause by mass gatherings in public by protesters, they are caused by haircuts and sunshine.
Don't mind the simultaneous rise in testing and test results, that's also not a factor. All you need to know is cases are surging, and it's deadly.

Now don't confuse large mass gatherings for protests with other large gatherings, only protesting is safe. Other gatherings have the deadly Covid 19.

Now that we've selectively chosen what's causing rising cases, don't forget to ignore the death numbers, because they also aren't indicating that we actually have more sick people.

Keep in mind, several hospitals are pretty full right now.

Last but not least, absolutely NOBODY dare point out that all the places having breakouts in the U.S., are places that hadn't been hit yet.
Seriously. Don't bring it up.

I'm not going to even try to explain how potentially messed up our "death count" might actually be, but I will drop this graph off here before I go.
See you all in a month or 2 again.

 

[Danoff]

In a shocking turn of events, coronavirus cases rise after mass gatherings of protesters across the nation. Fear not though, the additional infections are not, in fact cause by mass gatherings in public by protesters, they are caused by haircuts and sunshine.
Don't mind the simultaneous rise in testing and test results, that's also not a factor. All you need to know is cases are surging, and it's deadly.

Now don't confuse large mass gatherings for protests with other large gatherings, only protesting is safe. Other gatherings have the deadly Covid 19.

Now that we've selectively chosen what's causing rising cases, don't forget to ignore the death numbers, because they also aren't indicating that we actually have more sick people.

Keep in mind, several hospitals are pretty full right now.

Last but not least, absolutely NOBODY dare point out that all the places having breakouts in the U.S., are places that hadn't been hit yet.
Seriously. Don't bring it up.

I'm not going to even try to explain how potentially messed up our "death count" might actually be, but I will drop this graph off here before I go.
See you all in a month or 2 again.

Ok, first of all... did protests only occur in the south? Obviously protests raised risk for coronavirus, I don't think anyone who is paying attention would claim otherwise. Secondly, name a state that is exploding right now, and I will show you the chart of testing compared to new cases, and it does NOT track the gigantic rise in cases. Thirdly, a decent percentage of the rise is young people ignoring social distancing, so you would not expect to see that reflected so significantly in death figures. Also we're doing a little better at keeping people alive from this illness.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "hit" by coronavirus, but the places that are taking off right now certainly had cases early. If by "hit" you mean had a huge outbreak and tons of dead people... yea that's what we're all trying to avoid.

 

[noshog]

Compared to Pakistan?

In the global order, NZ is indeed a rich country. Everywhere will be paying for this for a generation or more.

I don't know about actual numbers, I never studied economics and I'm far from a financial expert... I was really just commenting on the general feeling I get around here... I guess maybe compared to somewhere like Pakistan we could be considered rich ? For me I guess we just feel average here, most I know live pay cheque to pay cheque, with a handful of people on either side of that line... That's all I used to come to my conclusion (I guess as we have discovered in this thread numbers can be deceiving).

 

[McLaren]

In a shocking turn of events, coronavirus cases rise after mass gatherings of protesters across the nation. Fear not though, the additional infections are not, in fact cause by mass gatherings in public by protesters, they are caused by haircuts and sunshine.

Now don't confuse large mass gatherings for protests with other large gatherings, only protesting is safe. Other gatherings have the deadly Covid 19.

BREAKING NEWS:
Out of all the places in the US that had widespread protests, the only places experiencing rapid growth in cases with protests are also the places that ignored lockdowns.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I don't know about actual numbers, I never studied economics and I'm far from a financial expert... I was really just commenting on the general feeling I get around here... I guess maybe compared to somewhere like Pakistan we could be considered rich ? For me I guess we just feel average here, most I know live pay cheque to pay cheque, with a handful of people on either side of that line... That's all I used to come to my conclusion (I guess as we have discovered in this thread numbers can be deceiving).

There is a big difference in living paycheck to paycheck in a house with a car and a boat, computers and phones or a dirt floor, a bicycle for the whole family and no property, no computers, no phones or other property.
Not all of Pakistan has it that way, but a significant amount.

 

[Touring Mars]

(Cross-posting from the 'America' thread...)

We had a lab meeting yesterday where we were given a run-down of new protocols to observe and agree to as the labs reopen.

Somewhat surprisingly, masks are not to be worn in the building. I think they've got this wrong, personally... but their argument is that demanding people to wear masks will only encourage people to ignore social distancing. They also argue that we shouldn't be in a situation where masks are required anyway i.e. offices remain closed, and labs will have strict maximum occupancies to enforce social distancing. They do, however, say that 'you will not be reprimanded for wearing a mask if you choose to do so'. Well that's great!

There is some truth to the whole 'some people who wear masks don't observe social distancing', but I reckon if the whole point is to minimize the risk of transmission generally, then mask wearing should be strongly advised alongside mandatory social distancing.

The fact that mask-wearing puts others at more ease is something my work seems to consider a negative thing not a positive thing, but generally speaking I reckon the same people who are inconsiderate enough to not hold in a sneeze or practice good hygiene in public are the same people who would also refuse or neglect to wear a mask, hence making access to the building contingent upon wearing a mask seems reasonable to me.

-

Also, good to see Vanilla Ice doing his bit to encourage people to stay home by playing an outdoor gig in Texas.

 

[Danoff]

(Cross-posting from the 'America' thread...)

We had a lab meeting yesterday where we were given a run-down of new protocols to observe and agree to as the labs reopen.

Somewhat surprisingly, masks are not to be worn in the building. I think they've got this wrong, personally... but their argument is that demanding people to wear masks will only encourage people to ignore social distancing. They also argue that we shouldn't be in a situation where masks are required anyway i.e. offices remain closed, and labs will have strict maximum occupancies to enforce social distancing. They do, however, say that 'you will not be reprimanded for wearing a mask if you choose to do so'. Well that's great!

There is some truth to the whole 'some people who wear masks don't observe social distancing', but I reckon if the whole point is to minimize the risk of transmission generally, then mask wearing should be strongly advised alongside mandatory social distancing.

The fact that mask-wearing puts others at more ease is something my work seems to consider a negative thing not a positive thing, but generally speaking I reckon the same people who are inconsiderate enough to not hold in a sneeze or practice good hygiene in public are the same people who would also refuse or neglect to wear a mask, hence making access to the building contingent upon wearing a mask seems reasonable to me.

Yea, that seems totally backward. Social distancing doesn't seem sufficient either when you're inside a building. It's also very difficult to actually enforce (unlike masks).

This is a bit like suggesting that people not wear seatbelts because they might drive faster if they wear one.

 

[x3ra]

Masks are uncomfortable and have they been proved to work?

 

[Barra333]

(Cross-posting from the 'America' thread...)

We had a lab meeting yesterday where we were given a run-down of new protocols to observe and agree to as the labs reopen.

Somewhat surprisingly, masks are not to be worn in the building. I think they've got this wrong, personally... but their argument is that demanding people to wear masks will only encourage people to ignore social distancing. They also argue that we shouldn't be in a situation where masks are required anyway i.e. offices remain closed, and labs will have strict maximum occupancies to enforce social distancing. They do, however, say that 'you will not be reprimanded for wearing a mask if you choose to do so'. Well that's great!

There is some truth to the whole 'some people who wear masks don't observe social distancing', but I reckon if the whole point is to minimize the risk of transmission generally, then mask wearing should be strongly advised alongside mandatory social distancing.

The fact that mask-wearing puts others at more ease is something my work seems to consider a negative thing not a positive thing, but generally speaking I reckon the same people who are inconsiderate enough to not hold in a sneeze or practice good hygiene in public are the same people who would also refuse or neglect to wear a mask, hence making access to the building contingent upon wearing a mask seems reasonable to me.

-

Also, good to see Vanilla Ice doing his bit to encourage people to stay home by playing an outdoor gig in Texas.

I will getting the procedures surrounding returning to my lab in the next day or two as well. Will be interesting to see what it looks like. The wrinkle being that the lab I'm in is located within a hospital.

 

[UKMikey]

Masks are uncomfortable and have they been proved to work?

Wah, boo-hoo and yes they have.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4...s-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

[TenEightyOne]

have they been proved to work?

Do you think they have, or is there an argument against?

 

[Joey D]

Masks are uncomfortable and have they been proved to work?

If your mask is uncomfortable, find a different mask. The only slightly annoying thing about masks is that they are a bit hot and when the temp is over a 100, your face sweats a bit. But past that they really aren't that bad and I even wear glasses. Some anti-fog stuff made for SCUBA diving fixed that though.

===

On the subject of masks, I was in Wyoming today, which is one of the most Republican states in the Union. Every single person who was in a building was wearing a mask. I was kind of shocked since masks have been so politicized, but seeing a bunch of rodeo dudes walking around in cowboy hats with a pistol on their hip while wearing a mask was certainly a good sign.

 

[x3ra]

Do governments have the right to stop you dying from natural causes? Or more importantly, do governments have the right to kill many more people as a result of the lock-down? Why sacrifice the lives of millions of those with little risk of dying from Covid-19 for the few who have only a few years left to live ?

 

[UKMikey]

Do governments have the right to stop you dying from natural causes? Or more importantly, do governments have the right to kill many more people as a result of the lock-down? Why sacrifice the lives of millions of those with little risk of dying from Covid-19 for the few who have only a few years left to live?

I hope one day, should you reach an advanced age, that you reflect deeply on the wording you've chosen for this post and the implications thereof.

"Sacrificing the lives of millions" is, in my opinion, the very essence of hyperbole. On the contrary I would ask how many old and in-the-way people those who think like you would be prepared to sacrifice for the sake of allowing younger people the freedom to forego mask usage/social distancing and spread the virus with impunity.

 

[x3ra]

So perhaps you can tell me how many deaths the lock-down has cost. And I'm probably older than you are, but not as condescending.

I hope one day, should you reach an advanced age, that you reflect deeply on the wording you've chosen for this post and the implications thereof.

"Sacrificing the lives of millions" is, in my opinion, the very essence of hyperbole. On the contrary I would ask how many old and in-the-way people like you would be prepared to sacrifice for the sake of younger people to forego mask usage/social distancing and spread the virus with impunity.

 

[x3ra]

During the most intense part of the 2008 UK financial crisis, there was around a five per cent drop in employment. A similar drop in the coming year would see chronic conditions in working-age people rise by between seven and 10 per cent.

That translates to around 900,000 more people with conditions such as asthma, depression and heart problems, the Imperial paper predicts.

 

[Danoff]

Do governments have the right to stop you dying from natural causes?

Huh?

Or more importantly, do governments have the right to kill many more people as a result of the lock-down?

The legality, or human rights implications of a lockdown order is a huge rabbit hole, and it's a case by case basis when it comes to which companies signed which contract with the government in order to operate and what options they had to do otherwise. It's also not as clear as you might initially assume. For example, do you have a right to use a public road during a public emergency? It's not your road, at least not yours individually. This discussion is a lengthy one.

Why sacrifice the lives of millions of those with little risk of dying from Covid-19 for the few who have only a few years left to live ?

This is pretty loaded, but it's just not this simple. You don't get to discount the lives of old people in favor of others, for several reasons, not the least of which is that it's not just old people that are at risk. Your math here is no good, and I'd say it's borderline immoral.

The utility of the lockdowns is a decent discussion, that I think is worth having. But the point that you're trying to make, which is apparently that lockdowns do more harm than good, is greatly undermined by people who run around spreading the virus with impunity. Some of the people who are out there spreading COVID despite knowing the recklessness of that behavior are committing a crime. But throwing people in jail for the harm they're doing others could result in a greater lockdown (out of fear of jail time) than what we've seen so far. So you might not like what you're asking for.

 

[UKMikey]

So perhaps you can tell me how many deaths the lock-down has cost. And I'm probably older than you are, but not as condescending.

If you're sufficiently old enough that you don't have long to go, no doubt you're more than willing to sacrifice yourself for all those young people you supposedly care more about than I do.

I don't know how many people have died as a result of the lockdown but am pretty sure that more lives have been saved than if we hadn't locked down at all. This is evidenced by the sharp rise in cases in areas where lockdowns have been prematurely relaxed.

Also, I don't think it gets more condescending than writing off the lives of vulnerable groups of people - of all ages - whom your attitude would put in greatly increased danger. In the face of a global crisis, we either pull together as a race, or perish separately.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Seriously. It's okay for my dad to die so you can go out and have a good time with your friends? Do you get how horrible that sounds when you put yourself in their shoes? Can you put yourself in their shoes?

 

[UKMikey]

Seriously. It's okay for my dad to die so you can go out and have a good time with your friends? Do you get how horrible that sounds when you put yourself in their shoes? Can you put yourself in their shoes?

Hey! Quit being so condescending when talking about your elders and betters.