COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

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All McDonald's restaurants in the UK and Ireland are closing from tomorrow.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/22/mcdonalds-restaurants-uk-close-tomorrow-12440175/

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Dallas County has announced its quarantine measures. More info to come later tonight.
Looks like we're essential. Looking forward to twiddling my thumbs for 7 hours & 1 hour of possible work.
iv . Essential Retail - ....Gas stations, auto-supply, auto and bicycle repair, hardware stores, and related facilities....
 
No it's not simple because nothing in heathcare is simple. You hook someone up for the first time to an untested, non-approved, 3D printed ventilator, and it doesn't work perfectly, and they die, and then what? Try again? Try a different one of the 1000 3D printed ventilators? How many different groups try one of these and kill patients?

If it's really that simple, let's just use the untested vaccine! That's got a shot of stopping all of this (much better than untested ventilators). And we actually have it... like... in hand.

Perhaps everyone over 80, or 70, should be welcome to come get a free sample of our attempt at untested vaccine development. Sounds better to me than giving them a free sample of our attempt at untested ventilator development.

To make a ventilator, you need to use an existing, proven, design, and probably existing factories. That's where we should be focused (and that's where focus is). The rest of this is fairly uninformed scrambling, and some superhero-image puffery from the guy who was going to build a robot to save those soccer players.
I didn't say anything about Musk... and regarding the highlighted bit refer below

If they license out manufacture of parts/assembly to these other companies it becomes a lot easier.
The UK government is expected to decide in the coming days on how to plug a shortage of medical ventilators needed to treat coronavirus, with options including mass production of existing designs or a new British model made from scratch.

Companies including Smiths Group, Meggitt, Airbus, McLaren, GKN and Nissan have been working on plans to quickly churn out thousands of the machines, following prime minister Boris Johnson’s plea for industry to lead a national effort to tackle the Covid-19 crisis. The government is aiming to start production by March 30, one person involved said, although this date could be pushed back.

The National Health Service now has access to 8,175 ventilators, including 691 from private hospitals and a handful from the Ministry of Defence.

But government officials have asked UK industry to deliver 5,000 within a month, with a total requirement for 30,000 to support patients expected to have severe respiratory difficulties as the virus spreads. This is a problem as the largest manufacturers of the devices are overseas.

The department of health said it was considering a combination of ramping up production of existing ventilator models and a new designed version.

Following a telephone call last week between the prime minister and dozens of industrial companies including Dyson and JCB, a consortium of aerospace and automotive groups have led the charge.

Different industrial consortiums were “working furiously” over the weekend, according to a person involved in the process. Some efforts are focused on whether it is possible to adapt and ramp up production of a portable ‘Parapac’ ventilator manufactured by Smiths, as well as adapting other ventilator designs.

The aerospace and automotive consortium being co-ordinated by the High Value Manufacturing Catapult research centre is also looking at a “clean sheet” design for a rapidly manufactured ventilator system (RMVS). It will be capable of operating 24 hours a day for 14 days straight, said one person with knowledge of the subject. Meggitt and others are hoping to present a prototype early this week.

At the same time, the industrial consortiums are talking to manufacturers of heavy-duty ICU ventilators about possibly licensing their design for manufacture in the UK.

“The companies will take instruction, if it is the prototype or a licensed design [that is chosen], and work out how to make it quickly,” the person said. “People are working through how the licensing might work. I am fairly confident this will be sorted out in the next three to four days.”




Meanwhile, Smiths is set to quadruple production of its Parapac plus mobile machines made at its Luton plant to around 200 to 300 a week. These do not require external power and are sold to the NHS for less than £5,000, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter. Airbus could potentially supply 3D printed components.

Additional factory lines could also be set up to manufacture the machines at a GKN plant also in Luton, or at sites in north Wales run by Airbus and the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre.

“If we end up with more ventilators than the UK needs that means we will be able to help people in other countries,” said Rosa Wilkinson, spokeswoman for the High Value Manufacturing Catapult.

However, it is unclear whether the type of devices sold by Smiths — which are deployed in ambulances — are suitable for the treatment of patients in intensive care wards.

One NHS anaesthetist said ambulatory ventilators were not considered appropriate for longer-term use. “We use them until we get them to ICU, when we then transfer them to an ICU ventilator,” they added.

In addition to the efforts co-ordinated by the government, a number of smaller engineering companies and inventors are developing their own ventilators in order to help with the worst global public health crisis in a century.

However, any new ventilator design will have to overcome a raft of obstacles. Although the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has indicated it could expedite the approval process, there is scepticism among executives in the sector about how quickly this can be safely completed.

Liability and legal issues also still need to be resolved, said several of those involved.
I'm just saying what I've read and that says they're working on licensing existing products, modifying existing products and designing new products. I don't think it would be hard for some of these companies to adapt if they're working under license by existing companies.

Of course there'll be hurdles but it's better than not bothering at all. Given the choice between something that could work versus just lay there and die because you're not on the short list, I know what I'd choose (the latter option seeming to already be the case for some people in Italy).
 
Trump himself did say that he plans on lifting a lot of the regulations and litigation to help fast track cures, vaccines and equipment.
 
Every third day I get to leave work early at 4:30. But it seems now instead of being able to come straight home and relax, I'll have to go out foraging for supplies namely milk and meat. I've tried going to the grocery store after I get off at 6pm and by that time the meat and dairy sections have been picked clean so those of us that can't go to the store early when the shelves are restocked are losing out. All I'm asking for is a normal 1lb pack of ground beef. That will last me an entire month.
 
Every third day I get to leave work early at 4:30. But it seems now instead of being able to come straight home and relax, I'll have to go out foraging for supplies namely milk and meat. I've tried going to the grocery store after I get off at 6pm and by that time the meat and dairy sections have been picked clean so those of us that can't go to the store early when the shelves are restocked are losing out. All I'm asking for is a normal 1lb pack of ground beef. That will last me an entire month.

Have you tried online ordering if it's available? It kind of sucks because you have to place your order a few days in advance (I have to wait until Wednesday afternoon to pick up the order I placed today) but you're far more likely to get what you need as they will pull stuff before it goes onto the sales floor. At least with the store I go to they will bring it out to your car which is nice even when there isn't a pandemic going on (They also have home delivery, but would rather just stop on my way home since it's on the way). Really the only downfall is fresh produce as you can't always trust the people picking stuff out.
 
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Have you tried online ordering if it's available? It kind of sucks because you have to place your order a few days in advance (I have to wait until Wednesday afternoon to pick up the order I placed today) but you're far more likely to get what you need as they will pull stuff before it goes onto the sales floor. At least with the store I go to they will bring it out to your car which is nice even when there isn't a pandemic going on (They also have home delivery, but would rather just stop on my way home since it's on the way). Really the only downfall is fresh produce as you can't always trust the people picking stuff out.

I haven't looked into that yet because I've been pretty fortunate finding a lot of staples that will last me quite awhile (canned goods, frozen dinners, etc) it's just the perishables that are a problem right now. Hopefully if we stay off total lockdown here in Alabama things will still be somewhat available.
 
I'm just saying what I've read and that says they're working on licensing existing products, modifying existing products and designing new products. I don't think it would be hard for some of these companies to adapt if they're working under license by existing companies.

It's very hard. The article I linked explained exactly why from an expert in the field. Ventilators are intricate pieces of equipment that are sourced from all over the world and assembled from those sources. It's not that easy to tool up a factory to make a new product.

Ventilators also run software that is written specifically for the machine, and which has to be tested and tested a million times, and still ends up with a few bugs that kill people.

Of course there'll be hurdles but it's better than not bothering at all.

Over and over I'm faced with this false dichotomy. Why does everyone compare every option with doing nothing? The thing to do is to look at existing ventilator designs, with existing manufacturing, and identify bottlenecks and places where manufacturing can be ramped up. That's what happened with toilet paper. They took an existing manufacturing line (like paper towels) that was easily adaptable to fill the gap, and moved over to toilet paper. If new factory tooling is needed, it might be for a semiconductor, or for a particular value that's difficult to source. Individual components can create shortages. It's pointless to have a factory ramp up only to have them relying on the same source that existing factories rely on.

In short, what is currently going on in the industry, where suppliers are scambling to find every and any way to increase output. Bottlenecks are being identified, and new sources for those bottlenecks will be found. That's how this is going to work.
 
It's very hard. The article I linked explained exactly why from an expert in the field. Ventilators are intricate pieces of equipment that are sourced from all over the world and assembled from those sources. It's not that easy to tool up a factory to make a new product.

Ventilators also run software that is written specifically for the machine, and which has to be tested and tested a million times, and still ends up with a few bugs that kill people.



Over and over I'm faced with this false dichotomy. Why does everyone compare every option with doing nothing? The thing to do is to look at existing ventilator designs, with existing manufacturing, and identify bottlenecks and places where manufacturing can be ramped up. That's what happened with toilet paper. They took an existing manufacturing line (like paper towels) that was easily adaptable to fill the gap, and moved over to toilet paper. If new factory tooling is needed, it might be for a semiconductor, or for a particular value that's difficult to source. Individual components can create shortages. It's pointless to have a factory ramp up only to have them relying on the same source that existing factories rely on.

In short, what is currently going on in the industry, where suppliers are scambling to find every and any way to increase output. Bottlenecks are being identified, and new sources for those bottlenecks will be found. That's how this is going to work.
I don't think I've explained this well enough because some of what you are saying is what is in the article (I've highlighted it in your post).

When I say working under license I don't mean they have to make every single component. The manufacture of parts can be licensed out to different companies from the existing ventilator companies either wholly or in part, whichever they can handle.

From the article in The Financial Times I put in the spoiler because the link didn't work:
At the same time, the industrial consortiums are talking to manufacturers of heavy-duty ICU ventilators about possibly licensing their design for manufacture in the UK.

The companies will take instruction, if it is the prototype or a licensed design [that is chosen], and work out how to make it quickly,” the person said. “People are working through how the licensing might work. I am fairly confident this will be sorted out in the next three to four days.”

Edit: Even a home and garden supply company has made an working ventilator.

https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/js...-could-be-manufactured-lsquomatter-daysrsquo/

This would probably be in the if you're not one of the lucky ones it's better than nothing category.
 
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I spoke to my mother in Louisville KY the other day. She told me that there was no meat in the grocery stores.

Here in Texas, the last time I went to Kroger, we had no toilet paper, very few canned veggies, and the pasta isle was non-existent.

But we had plenty of meat. The only thing I didn't see were the prepackaged 1lb and 3lb chubs of ground beef. They had plenty of hamburger that was ground in house.

I guess that just comes down to local sourcing. We got lots of cows.
 
It would be really helpful to have more accurate statistics on the virus. How vulnerable are younger people? How sick do they get? How many don't get sick at all? What effect do underlying medical conditions have on outcomes? What exactly is the vulnerability of older people who do not have underlying medical conditions? What are the possible dangers of allowing the virus to run through the healthy & younger part of the population larger unchecked?

The answers to these questions could make a big difference to the way the pandemic is handled. If you can impose the shut down of entire countries to protect the vulnerable, could you not rather focus on the rigorous protection of the vulnerable while allowing the rest of society to function more normally? Would it not be better to spend money on rapidly building additional hospital facilities, they way they (apparently) did in China, rather than handing out trillions of dollars in attempts to shore-up an economy on shut-down?
 
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I spoke to my mother in Louisville KY the other day. She told me that there was no meat in the grocery stores.

Here in Texas, the last time I went to Kroger, we had no toilet paper, very few canned veggies, and the pasta isle was non-existent.

But we had plenty of meat. The only thing I didn't see were the prepackaged 1lb and 3lb chubs of ground beef. They had plenty of hamburger that was ground in house.

I guess that just comes down to local sourcing. We got lots of cows.
Must be your necks of the woods. My local supermarket was cleared out of meats in addition to the usual "hoarders' delights".
 
Should have been earlier especially when we have to serve customers who wipe cash across their kids faces which I then had to take.
A lot of the initial community spread around Michigan happened at fast food joints and gas stations along I96.
 
Should have been earlier especially when we have to serve customers who wipe cash across their kids faces which I then had to take.

I hate to say it, but you should have refused, and asked for card payment instead. No way would I have taken it like that without the virus, let alone with the virus.
 
I don't think I've explained this well enough because some of what you are saying is what is in the article (I've highlighted it in your post).

When I say working under license I don't mean they have to make every single component. The manufacture of parts can be licensed out to different companies from the existing ventilator companies either wholly or in part, whichever they can handle.

From the article in The Financial Times I put in the spoiler because the link didn't work:

Yea that's the only way to really increase production. Take an existing design, and try to make bottleneck parts at more places. Trying to bring a whole new assembly online is likely to run into the same bottlenecks as existing manufacturing.


Edit: Even a home and garden supply company has made an working ventilator.

https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/js...-could-be-manufactured-lsquomatter-daysrsquo/

This would probably be in the if you're not one of the lucky ones it's better than nothing category.

That looks like an automated hand pump, which is not the same thing as what a ventilator is doing for an intubated patient. This is what I mean about the term "ventilator" getting thrown about. Automating hand pumps would certainly be helpful, if that machine actually works well, and doesn't stop functioning when nobody is looking, and delivers consistent input. But you could do that job with a volunteer. And a volunteer would let you know when something went wrong.

Hand pumps can be helpful for offloading patients from ventilators.
 
https://www.ft.com/content/b887d344-6c8b-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

UK strategy likely to cause 35,000-70,000 excess deaths, says study
Latest academic research concludes government ‘should do more’ to suppress outbreak

The latest UK government strategy to slow the coronavirus epidemic could lead to between 35,000 and 70,000 excess deaths over the next year, according to an instant analysis by scientists from University College London, the University of Cambridge and Health Data Research UK. The team of clinicians, statisticians and epidemiologists says the UK measures do not go far enough in stopping the spread of the disease or identifying the most vulnerable high-risk groups. The government should “do more in the pursuit of suppressing the epidemic whether through enforced lockdowns or enforced social distancing rather than voluntary measures”, they add. The study — a rapid analysis not yet published in a peer-reviewed journal — estimates the excess number of deaths caused by Covid-19 in relation to underlying medical conditions and age, using NHS health records from 3.8m adults in England. Dr Amitava Banerjee of UCL, the lead author, said: “The UK government is currently following a partial suppression policy of population-wide social distancing, combined with home isolation of cases, as well as school and university closures, but this is currently not [mandatory]. “Our study indicates that the government should implement more stringent suppression at population level to avoid not just immediate deaths but also long-term excess deaths,” he said. Coronavirus business update How is coronavirus taking its toll on markets, business, and our everyday lives and workplaces? Stay briefed with our coronavirus newsletter. Sign up here The research adjusts the deaths likely to be caused directly by the epidemic, taking account of the fact that some would have died anyway from other causes. So far almost all Covid-19 deaths in the UK have occurred in people who were either elderly or suffering from underlying disease.
Even so, the study comes up with what the authors regard as an unacceptably high number of excess deaths for the current government policy: 35,000 to 70,000. The researchers appealed to the NHS to make more data available for studies like theirs. Harry Hemingway, UCL professor of clinical epidemiology, said: “Legislation is urgently needed to free up nationwide NHS data so that clinicians and services can rapidly learn ways to tackle the consequences of the epidemic, both in those with and those without the virus. “The current regulatory and legislative environment around NHS data hampers the public health emergency response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”
 
As more states decide to shut down.
I heard rumor at the gas/petrol station today that Minnesota would be shut down tomorrow or wednesday for 2 weeks.
As the spread is real and more cases start to happen. Even if the backlog is still real at lease maybe now with the whole we can't do anything now lets just stay at home and watch some netflix or play with your kids, or even walk the dog a few times.

As of yesterday there has been 1 death 169 cases and 4,680 tests (Not counting private ones)
 
Shouldn’t they have closed on Saturday?

They had closed all seated areas but the drive-thru and delivery services were still available. Now they're shutting down completely.

I just went out to my local Aldi to stock up on lunches for the next few weeks and it was actually pretty well stocked, the only thing they didn't have was toilet rolls which I already have enough of. It's looking like the hoarding is slowing down somewhat, at least where I live.

However as someone with asthma and elderly relatives the government's attitude towards how to handle it in the UK is terrifying. I even found myself agreeing with Piers Morgan this morning which just goes to show how bad it has gotten!
 
Michigan has joined other states putting out a stay home order going into effect tonight at midnight to last no less than 3 weeks.
 
So what happens if you go out exactly? Are cops gonna pull over every driver they see and ask them where they're going?
 
I heard rumor at the gas/petrol station today that Minnesota would be shut down tomorrow or wednesday for 2 weeks.

I have to imagine fuel stations are considered essential. However, I could see them shutting down the mini-marts attached to them and just making everything pay by credit card at the pump. Also, do you want massive panic? Because this is how you get massive panic.

===

In other news, goddammit Utah.

Hundreds of LDS missionaries return home amid coronavirus concerns

Thousands of people gathered at SLC airport as 1,600 missionaries returned from all over the world. I guess I shouldn't be surprised though, the LDS Church will be the main reason the virus spreads in Utah. Right now, all LDS churches are closed, but nearly every ward is doing home visits to do whatever it is Mormons do in church. This typically entails young people going shopping and then bringing goods to seniors and then helping them around the house. They're then going to another senior's house to do the same thing.

Also, not surprising but KSL, the propaganda news outlet for the LDS Church, isn't reporting this.

I kind of wish they'd gone through with the whole if you have more than 10 people gathered together it's a misdemeanor and punishable with a fine.
 
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