Crash Simulation in Vision GT

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I wouldnt mind drifting around the track missing my front bumper...Im still learning to drift...
If damage was real, I would have gone throuh about 30-40 cars by now...hahaha..
 
I do take a break from racing, so I'm mostly buying and modding cars even if I'm not going to use them in official GT Mode races. Probably see me doing Gymkhana or Motorland just testing out my cars. There's plenty of ways to relax from Gran Turismo mode.

My thing is, I look at things from a racing perspective. And sometimes, realism is a loose term even in this thread. Realism can mean two things- (1) realistic in terms of sane, or (2) realistic in terms of "if I can do this in real life, I should do this in the game." In my context, I'm talking about realistic in terms of sanity. You can do what you want with a game that has crash damage enabled, just that I'm more concerned with driving and racing. My reason as to why people like crashing is because obviously cars aren't indestructible. So then, it can be refreshing to most gamers that you'll be able to actually damage cars instead of having unscathed automobiles. Some people see this issue as "about freaking time! I hate the (manufacturer) (car) so much that I can actually smash up this piece of 🤬 car GT forces me to race!" But again, nothing to be excited over.

I also disagree to the statement of "encouraging crashes to make GT Mode less frustrating." And in fact, it's VERY idiotic, "amp88." Come on, what's refreshing about crashing cars? It isn't stress relief, it isn't excitement, so what is it, then? Even in crash-enabled games, sometimes I get upset at some car that I want to completely take him/her out of the race. But I don't want to be encouraged to take somebody out of the race. There's a difference. Wanting to deliberately take my aggressions out on somebody is human emotion out of control. Being encouraged to take somebody out means I either take him/her out, or die trying. Keep Arcade Mode as it is- a way to enjoy Gran Turismo outside of the sim realm. It should be about hard-fought racing with nothing to implicit cheap thrills (i.e. police chases, traffic pileups, basically anything you normally DON'T see in professional or even amateur racing). And that's going to be my two storylines on car damage in GT. Story 1 - "Will Damage in GT5 be the Equal of Online Play for GT4?" Will the only thing people care about in the next GT is only damage, much like the online possibilities would exist for GT5. And Story 2 - "How Will PD Implement and Market Damage?" Will it be done so that it's there if you want it, or will they have some crash fest of cars with Simple Plan, Yellowcard, or some other cheesy rock music in the background?

Still, I'm interested to see how this all turns out.
 
JohnBM01
It should be about hard-fought racing with nothing to implicit cheap thrills (i.e. police chases, traffic pileups, basically anything you normally DON'T see in professional or even amateur racing).

So your saying drivers fighting or being able to throw helmets at each other isn't completely out of the question??
;)

:lol:
 
code_kev
hell yes.

I want the damage to be as unforgiving as in real life, but obviously the AI has to be made better in account of this.

Exactly!!If the AI doesn't imporve and GT5 has real (time) life damage, the AI will crash into each other all the time eliminating each other before every first lap. :dopey:

Eye toy = maybe used as a tracking device??? The same thing as the TrackIR used in flight sims and GTR, GTL??
Although, I don't know how it's possible to use a camera as a tracking device.
 
Ok seriously...

ITS A GAME.... for christ sake... GT4 is not Rated R or Mature or 18+... its a freakin' RACING GAME made of Polygones...

If by crashing, be it for fun, relief, frustration or simulation you guys think it'll create maniacs, stop playing, 'cause you fit the profile... GAME... GAME....

How many of you guys have played Flatout? Richard Burn's rally? Those games are terrific to crash in... Flat out... you take two cars, stake them in front of one another going at 200mph... and BAM.... its hilarious. You see the two pilots go flying in the air. ITS A GAME... its got nothing to do with real life which is serious and of course death is not funny.

BUT ITS A GAME... A GAME.... A - GA-ME. god...
 
code_kev
I fail to see what point your trying make...

The point i'm trying to make is that a lot of people are saying car damage in the GT series shouldn't be integrated because it would lead to people liking to crash and that crashing is not funny because crashing is serious... and so on... which is completly retarded.

Saying that somone is an idiot or doesn't deserve to play a game like GT4/5/3952 because they like to crash, they find crashing relaxing or funny or whatever else they feel is seriously wrong. That is judging people solely by opinion, on a virtual board, online.

So if someone is capable of saying something similar to this, convey an argument to that effect and truly believe it is wrong to think otherwise, that person, whoever it might be, does not deserve to comment on games, because games are exactly there for that very purpose. To relaxe, have fun, PLAY something instead of taking a real gun or a real car and throw themselve off a cliff .

by talking and criticising as much as people do around here, there's a big loss of perspective going on. That is the point i'm trying to make...

sorry if i offended anyone, it is not my intension, but only to be clear.
 
-> You guys need need to quit playing GT and play Flat Out or any of those Destruction Derby games, since crashes are that important to you. This thread is going nowhere. :indiff:
 
This is beginning to remind me of the moronic "Graphics aren't important, its all about gameplay" argument. Those morons don't realize its the good graphics which allow for better gameplay potential. Likewise, don't get caught up in the crashes themselves, but in the possibilty of crashing. Making it possible to crash also adds to speed perception because there is that psychological awareness of consequence. Combine that with 120 frames per second, and of course better graphics, and we will actually be able to appreciate what it means to be going fast when your're only going some 120 km/hr in a course like Costa di Amalfi. :drool:
 
Wakeem
Making it possible to crash also adds to speed perception because there is that psychological awareness of consequence. Combine that with 120 frames per second, and of course better graphics, and we will actually be able to appreciate what it means to be going fast when your're only going some 120 km/hr in a course like Costa di Amalfi. :drool:
:drool:
:drool:
:drool:
 
Wakeem
This is beginning to remind me of the moronic "Graphics aren't important, its all about gameplay" argument. Those morons don't realize its the good graphics which allow for better gameplay potential. Likewise, don't get caught up in the crashes themselves, but in the possibilty of crashing. Making it possible to crash also adds to speed perception because there is that psychological awareness of consequence. Combine that with 120 frames per second, and of course better graphics, and we will actually be able to appreciate what it means to be going fast when your're only going some 120 km/hr in a course like Costa di Amalfi. :drool:

But the physics must improved! When you race at Amalfi, all you do is fly and wallride, sometimes both at once. 👎
 
Flying and wall riding at once... did you mean Assisi? I loved Costa di Amalfi. It's actually easier. I will say that tighter courses is a step in a positive direction for rallying fans. Add damage to Assisi (I forget the official track name), you'll likely see the rear spoiler of your Peugeot 206 WRC end up on the front door of one of the buildings on the course.

In your view, what style of racing (rally, drag, etc.) would be the biggest benefactor of damage in GT5? By the way, on the point of drifting, I've seen picture of cars taking off their bumpers while drifting so that they don't really mess up the front and rear bumpers. I don't know if this means anything if you have a really long front Veilside bumper or not ;-), but yeah.
 
I was watching the tape delay footage of the Australian V8 Supercar's Queensland 300. Midway in the race at Oran Park, this one Holden got OWNED! First, this guy is punted off the road, over the rumble strips, and rolled around violently into the grass with great damage to the car. I believe it was Jason Richards who had his car OWN3D, but it was wild. I think the Australian V8 Supercars are some of the most awesome race cars in the world, and the crash was quite violent.

What level of damage would make you happy in Gran Turismo 5? Damage in terms of visual and not physical? Or should damge be like "you bought the car, and it can be destroyed like it's nothing?" What level of damage would impress you? Consider the fact that you'll be racing with these cars and have to deal with the humoungous damage if you wreck.
 
The Vanishing Boy
-> Well I'm not too keen on damages, I'd rather see more cars and tracks in the game. But I hope that damage will be featured in GT5 doesn't mean a significant reduction of cars in the game.
I'm 95% sure it will.
GTRacer4
Mmmmm...damage. I'd like to see a car lot full of used, damaged cars you could buy for dirt cheap prices and restore them like new, and put some parts and a (functional) bodykit.
That's actually quite a good idea. I don't think anyones has tried that since 2000 with Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed. I dunno how they could get it to work though. Need for Speed used a randomly generated list, and PD's refusal to do so in the nromal used cars lots makes me think it won't happen.
yaywater
But, of course, Arcade mode should remain relatively unchanged, or perhaps even encourage crashing!!
You know, there a game that does that. It's called Burnout 3. I'm all for car damage, especially if it doesn't lower car count (but if a few Skylines have to do in the name of damage, then so be it :lol: ), but PD should not for one second encourage car crashing. Because if GT is supposed to be a driving sim, than encouraging crashing at any time will end the series. It will. Because you don't race that way in real life. If you want to play it like it's Burnout, than fine. But PD should not encourage you to play it like it's Burnout. They should do the opposite.
By the way, this is a perfect example of how I think PD should implement car damage.
 
JohnBM01
I was watching the tape delay footage of the Australian V8 Supercar's Queensland 300. Midway in the race at Oran Park, this one Holden got OWNED! First, this guy is punted off the road, over the rumble strips, and rolled around violently into the grass with great damage to the car. I believe it was Jason Richards who had his car OWN3D, but it was wild. I think the Australian V8 Supercars are some of the most awesome race cars in the world, and the crash was quite violent.

What level of damage would make you happy in Gran Turismo 5? Damage in terms of visual and not physical? Or should damge be like "you bought the car, and it can be destroyed like it's nothing?" What level of damage would impress you? Consider the fact that you'll be racing with these cars and have to deal with the humoungous damage if you wreck.

John, good points indeed.

How about having to pay for the repairs? In series or for the whole car... when you damage it, you need to repair it, or make decisions as to how much to spend on the car to make it profitable, and when to decide into selling the thing for scrap and buying a new one... That's another thing that could be interesting.

Also, during a series, when bodywork is damaged... having some alternative car textures or models with Ductape and wires holding the bodywork together would be fun as well.

Visual Damage is a must and is very important because it gives the player a good clue as to what's wrong with his car... having the possibility of a 3D camera around the car when in the pits would be another good idea. And of course, it can tell you how the car in front of you is damaged (if it pulls to a side... has break problems, or if its losing oil or whatever...) giving you strategies to overtake it.

I'd go for 100% damage possibilities...to the point where the car is wrecked behond repair or salvage. If you're not careful... too bad.
 
oh yeah, forgot to add... it was mentionned that damage is a problem when playing online...

Speculating that GT5 could use a system similar to PGR3, where your offline cars are also your online cars... that would somewhat fix the problem. Everyone would need to spend Cr to purchase and maintain cars... so there would be far less people willing to trash their cars for the benifit of 'fun'...

just a though.
 
Toronado
PD should not for one second encourage car crashing. Because if GT is supposed to be a driving sim, than encouraging crashing at any time will end the series. It will. Because you don't race that way in real life. If you want to play it like it's Burnout, than fine. But PD should not encourage you to play it like it's Burnout. They should do the opposite.

The proper way to do it would be to punish the player for wrecking his car.. like i said earlier (previous post)... by having the player pay for the repairs... and not allow a car in a race or on a track because its behond damaged and is a security risk.
 
PD would have to create some type of 'Black Box' system where everything that happened prior to the crash is recorded. Since its a video game, it naturally is. Its not like real life where everything is recorded and you can watch a replay from any angle. The computer should then calculate whos fault it was mathematically and the players involved should then agree to the consequences. If it was a casual race, it can be blown off.

The rest of the grid should be able to see the replay, and there should be spectators who watch the race who see the replay. If legalities wont prevent annoying punks from crashing into others, the honour system will. If someone does something stupid then it doesnt matter what the points say, people will know the real story.

There annoying people in games like counter strike yet it still thrives. Could GT5 allow people to host their own events like CS? The admin could always ban the nuisance from the race.
 
Good theorical idea Wakeem, but unfortunatly, the world of videogame doesn't work that way.

The Black Box idea is fine, and its basically the way the game records the sessions and reply in GT right now. Basically the game records the player's input, rather then 'filming' the whole scene. Then simply replay those inputs automatically, replaying your exact score. (you should see this kind of programming, its insane... and when it doesn't work, its hilarious).

But to the point of multiplayer... unfortunatly, no one will spend time watching the replay and talk about who's fault it is. That takes for ever and everyone's got a different argument. Also, programming a game where the Penalities and fault system can 'mathematically' figure out who's fault it is... well its near impossible, because there are hundreds of thousands of ways to interpolate an event... of only 2 cars for exemple... so try imagining 3-4-5 cars... who's fault is it? if there's another car that gets into the pillup afterwards... it gets so complicated no one could ever bother spending time coding this or make it fit on a gaming console's CPU usage.

instead, votings and scores are usually used to leave good or bad feedback on players, like the Xbox 360 system. Of course there will always be those who leave bad feedback because they lost, because you are too good or because you mistakenly bumped them, or even worst.. they brake too soon and you just ram them on... but those do not make the mass, and although it is nearly impossible to have a clean record, the real jerks will have a very high number of bad rep and will eventually be unable to join any games...

The recording and AI programming is a good idea, but an impossible one with our current technology... it would be suicide.
 
Just to add, into a clean post...

I firmly believe that the next GT product should have the basic race rules and regulations instored. White flags, Yellow Flags, Black Flags... that would solve a lot of problems... and have they all removed in Arcade mode, as with Damage as well. That way, the game is accessible to both hardcore and casual players.
 
Have them all selectable in arcade mode, on or off, or with damage having multiple settings like visual only or minor mechanical effects only ect.
 
All this stuff we're talking about could be solved with well planned and thought out "race regulations". In real life when you enter a race say Formula 1 the driver and team have to follow a set of rules to which they must adhere to, as is the case with any real life race. If any of the rules are broken there are penalties which are implemented. Of course the severity of the penalty is a direct reflection of the infraction...i.e. If I purpously ram the 1st place car out of the way, I will be black flagged, fined and no longer able to participate in that particular series of races for let's say 30 days. If PD is going to implement "physical" damage into the game I think this would be the only way to make it work or else there would really be no point. As for online play I think damage should be left out simply because of some loosers that will log on to purposely damage fair and legitimate players hence ruining the experience for everyone.
 
Fusha, that's very true.. but how do you go into implementing such behavior into AI coding?

If Driver A is sidebyside with Driver B and decides to ram Driver B, that's easy: Driver A is faulty...

but how would the game decide who's faulty if both Drivers are sidebyside in a curve, and both cars touch, sending Driver B into the ditch because Driver B is in the outside of the curve. Its most probably a Driver Error (B's error for oversteering the curve) but how would the game know that? Since Driver B is the one taking damage?

Its very very very complex to code this kind of regulations... and that's the problem. We have to remember that its not a human being who's the 'ref' in this... its a Computer Program... and we are far from the Matrix.
 
If it's on a corner and they're side by sinde, the car the changes it's radius with relation to the inside of the corner is at fault so say car a is on the inside and b on the out, car a drifts out and hits b, car a is at fault. If car b turns in tighter and hits car a, car b is at fault. If both move into each other, I'd say penalise them both. If it's that unclear who's fault it is, jsut depending on the severity of the situation, penalise all involved, or penalise none of them. In order to determine if the impact was severe enough you meerly calculate the force the two cars hit and if it exeeded a set figure, then the penalties come in, if it wasn't a large enough force, regardless of what happens after, no penalites.
 
Well I didn't say it was going to be easy..lol, but as a quick rule of thumb if a driver has you on the inside corner you should give up your position because he's got you regardless (better line). I mean some "minor touching" could be allowed as live4speed has suggested, like in that british league where they race those Touring cars (sorry can't remember the name). Ever hear that saying - "Keep it simple stupid"? Well defined "simple rules" should be able to be implemented into the AI. I think...I could be wrong.
 
Since you all mention having to pay for damages let's look at two possibilities in the event that only one car was brought to the track. What if you took a 2004 Pescarolo and wreck at Laguna Seca to the point where the car was virtually undrivable. When you go to pay to repair the car, are you going to pay for all the damages up front, or end up having to get a new car? I think if damages are going to be that severe, the prices of autos in GT games will have to go down because not everyone (in this case) is not going to have 4.5 M Cr to pay for a brand new car that costs that much. What if the car was a Secret car? What if you won a car from the 24 Hours of Le Mans or Nürburgring Nordschleife? Are you going to have to run those entire races again to get a new copy of the car?

And by the way, I think the big benefactor of a review system would have to be online gaming. Someone watching the game may have to be able to "TiVo" GT5 races to review bad activity much like how the NFL reviews football plays. I don't know how you'd implement offline race investigation, so I'll leave that up to you.
 
That's the way it is normally done, but then again, that is how the penality system works in GT4 right now, and its useless. The system that is usually writen looks like this:

//sec1
If car1 hit car2 at < 50mph = nothing
If car1 hit car2 at = / > 50mph = penality

That kind of coding doesn't work, as its too severe and too simple. So you have to incorporate something similar to:

//sec2
if car1 speed dif of car2 is < 10mph = nothing
if car1 speed dif of car2 is = to 10mph = warning
if car1 speed dif of car2 is > 10mph = yellow flag

but then, you have to take into account that the car2 might be at fault for braking too fast. so you add:

//sec3
if car1 impact car2 -- car2 no brakes = check //sec1 -- yes? = Penal -- No? = check //sec2 - yes? = Penal -- No? = warning
if car2 impact car2 -- car2 brake = check //sec1 -- yes? = Penal -- No? = check //sec2 - yes? = Penal -- No? = warning

Then, you can ask... did Car1 brake as well as car2... then you have to start all over again... and that's just for car impact...

There's another thing concerning this kind of coding scheme... you have to take into account the different power the cars... 2 fiat punto will not go at 200mph... so their impact speed might be far lessen then 2 NSX or something else that goes stupidly fast.

SO instead of a simple code like this... you gotta create an algorithem that will make a good mathematical equation, stating what is the overall 'power' of each car, classing it into categories... from there, this will determine what is a safe or not safe speed of impact which would result in penalities or not. (which GT4 doesn't do). So that a Punto will need not to go faster then 20mph to get a penality over braking, but a NSX will need 45 MPH to get the same penality.

But then, this exemple is flawed because every car at low speed can make a serious impact on another car and such, create very real damage (we are talking below 50mph speed limit) so a whole new set of coding must written for that, and again, it requires an algorithm to determine which car fits into that description and which doesn't.

At this point, some people might say: just write the specific code for each car... but that's no good, because that means on a game that runs 25 cars at once, 25 times the codes must be run simulaneously, instead of one code which will make the calculation in real-time, thus taking more time and more CPU power for the same penality system.

Then, if you want damage... the smart way to do this would be to piggyback this equation into the damage level of each car... so that an impact at 20mph will not look like an impact at 35 mph... and so on...

Then, if you want Online or Multiplayer capacity, you have to find a way to incorporate all this information, plus all the relevant car information (current speed, current location, current level of damage...) and find a way to package it and send it through a Network connection/Internet bandwith.

I'm telling you guys, its all nice to have ideas... but finding a way to code it all in one bunch, have it work for 25+ cars at once and ONLINE... is another story... Now i didn't write this to say its impossible, because its really possible. But i wrote this for everyone on this board who 'have an excellent idea' and thinks everything is possible 'if PD only really wants to do it'... its really not that simple... really.

cheers,

note: i'm not a programmer, so this codelines are noway near what real coding means, i just used the C++ "if" style coding to better explain how things work. I've done codes in my time, and i hate it. But i do work in this business, and i've seen a lot of hairgripping maniacs quit their jobs and break windows...
 
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