Creation vs. Evolution

[Swift]

People get better with out God. The human body can bve very good at recovery, better then people realise.

The closed minded argument is over used btw. Just because I don't believe in what you say does not mean I havn't thought it over.

CK, you say people can get better without God. They can get better without medicine too. What's your point?

You're closed minded because you don't acknowledge any remote possibility that God has the power that we're talking about. Forget Creation and Evolution. I mean here and now. You simply don't and won't accept that God could infact be God.

 

[code_kev]

Umm I edited what I said before you posted that.

You simply don't and won't accept that God could infact be God.

Because it doesn't make sense. That's why.

 

[Danoff]

Obviously if you believe in God, you believe that God has the power to cure people of illness. If you believe in a hands-on God, you believe that God actually does intervene in illness and cures people. So you would certainly believe in the power of faith to heal.

It's part of the whole God package. You believe in God... you belive in divine healing.

I feel somewhat to blame for sending us to this medical argument, but I'd like to point out that it started not with God healing people, but people healing themselves - with their will alone.

I don't believe in God, so I don't believe in divine healing, but I also don't understand how it is fundamentally mechanically possible for a person to heal themselves via their "will". You can't think yourself better, illness is a physical process (not a mystical magical one), and it cannot be cured by any means other than physical.

 

[code_kev]

I feel somewhat to blame for sending us to this medical argument, but I'd like to point out that it started not with God healing people, but people healing themselves - with their will alone.

Don't feel guilty, it's an interesting topic.

 

[Small_Fryz]

but I also don't understand how it is fundamentally mechanically possible for a person to heal themselves via their "will". You can't think yourself better, illness is a physical process (not a mystical magical one), and it cannot be cured by any means other than physical.

The mind is very mysterious and powerfu, it essentially controls everthing we ever know and perceive. It controls all our body, it is makes us go. Im sure it has SOME effect, at least thats what i believe and its worked for me. Im currently extremely heathly with no medication, after 6 open heart surgery's. My own doctor said to me "many cant belive how well youve come along, and its not just my doing, its your doing as well"

I truly belive your mindset can help or hinder the abilty to heal things, think of it like motivation for your body to try harder even. plust positive thoughts lead to positive actions, which can also increase your chances.

 

[Danoff]

The mind is very mysterious and powerfu, it essentially controls everthing we ever know and perceive. It controls all our body, it is makes us go. Im sure it has SOME effect, at least thats what i believe and its worked for me. Im currently extremely heathly with no medication, after 6 open heart surgery's. My own doctor said to me "many cant belive how well youve come along, and its not just my doing, its your doing as well"

I truly belive your mindset can help or hinder the abilty to heal things, think of it like motivation for your body to try harder even. plust positive thoughts lead to positive actions, which can also increase your chances.

Positive thoughts leading to positive actions isn't really what I'm on about. How, exactly, does the mind remove the illness or injury from your body? I don't think it's so mysterious or powerful. There is nothing magical about being sick or injured.

 

[Famine]

Much though I hate to use his name in vain...

My dad has, in the last few years, gone through a hip replacement, late-onset diabetes, two heart attacks, a quadruple bypass, two strokes and seven stents (and a driver). He is one of THE most pessimistic people on Earth. The glass isn't just half empty, it's also got the wrong beer in it and it's dirty to boot. But he's in the very rudest (and I MEAN rudest) of health. And he does everything wrong (half a bottle of red wine a day, at the least. It washes down the heart medication!).

Want to compare scars, Fryz?

Donor scar

Implant scar

(from ~2 years ago)

 

[Small_Fryz]

Always exceptions.

However i really do belive your mind can help, afterall what controls those germ killing bugs?

Scar on back

Scars on front

hehe, he has some nice ones 👍

Anyway, each to their own on this one, My mind has helped me with the pain and also i belive with healing.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Much though I hate to use his name in vain...

My dad has, in the last few years, gone through a hip replacement, late-onset diabetes, two heart attacks, a quadruple bypass, two strokes and seven stents (and a driver). He is one of THE most pessimistic people on Earth. The glass isn't just half empty, it's also got the wrong beer in it and it's dirty to boot. But he's in the very rudest (and I MEAN rudest) of health. And he does everything wrong (half a bottle of red wine a day, at the least. It washes down the heart medication!).

ummmm.. well, this kinda goes along with what I said.


Anywho, Maybe it's God. Maybe it's willpower. Maybe it's frame-of-mind.
My question to anybody, anybody who believes in none of these, what is it? why do some people die from things? why does people who are weak-willed seem to be sick longer? It's one thing to say "I don't believe that it's any of those", but I have no idea what it is. It's totally different to just say, It's a bunch of random happenings, because random happenings is never a part of science. (unless you're talking evolution, they seem to make exceptions there )

P.S. PAIN: a systematic response from the body, transmitting to the brain, simply that it is wounded. Technically, pain is a figment of your imagination, there is no such thing, it's just your body sending (electro-?) to your brain, that's all, according to some scientist on TV.
Assuming that's true, isn't it theoretically possible to overcome pain, with a strong mind and strong will? if you said no, why can some guys take a shot in the balls? why could some guys get beat with sticks and the like, and simply stand there, seemingly without pain? talk to some old Asian guys, the ones who do all the spirit-mind-body stuff, ask them why they can do it. There's gotta be a scientific explanation right?



CODE KEV Maybe you'll like the story of my Mother, who died at the age of 40, back in 96. She had breast cancer, science said no, and God said no. she died.
Does that mean everybody in her situation will? No.
My Grandpa, had a 5x bypass surgery, and many other challenges, which he overtook with leaps and bounds, recovering to perfect health, everytime, yet, shortly after my Mother's passing, he developed cancer very quickly and died just over a year after she did. Why? I can tell you he no longer had much (if any) will to live. I can also tell you he died very fast, and did not fight, after all, he developed cancer, and died of it in 1 year. yet before he lost that seemingly unstoppable life urge, he chugged right through anything coming his way. tell me why.

We're not the only intelligent being. Monkeys are quite intelligent, as are dolphins and several other members of the animal kingdom (of which we are a part). There is a wide range of intelligence out there among animals... which is why you can teach your dog to sit but not your hampster.

We're the MOST intelligent being, all evidence suggests that we're the most intelligent being in the history of the planet. We're the first being intelligent enough to develop a society and harness the mind. No other being in the history of the world has done that, but that isn't totally necessary to pass on genes.

Animals are able to reporduce without intelligence, they only need to be strong enough and physically capable enough to survive past breeding age. That's why it makes a lot of sense for a smaller animal without very many natural weapons - like a monkey, to rely on its brain - clever use of it's environment to keep it alive. Large animals that rely on physical prowess (like dinosaurs) don't need much of a brain, they just need big teeth and muscles to stay alive. Over time, natural selection focuses those traits to extremes.

You clearly have a lot to learn about evolution, and you should spend some time educating yourself about it.

Clearly you do not understand that compared to humans, this "intelligence" you speak of is comparative crap. Somehow I just knew somebody would give a bad argument, but wow, you speak of them as comparable.

Neanderthals? they arent even proven to exist, wtf is this??? Many, Many, scientists still don't believe in their existance, what's up next, bigfoot? the the abominal snowman? (the lochness monster was clearly a pleaseosaur), but Holy S***, this is really bad.

Not to mention, I don't see them, how are they comparable to humans? they couldnt keep alive (assuming they were), went extinct, and that's that. I don't recall hearing of them being anything like people, other than supposedly looking kinda like, monkeys can do that.
FYI monkeys are stupid, as stupid as other animals, they simple have coordination, to do other things like your branch swinging.

Seriously guys, is this a serious discussion? or are we gonna keep with cracks like comparing dolphins to humans? And stating about legends?

There's dracula!

 

[Kylehnat]

Clearly you do not understand that compared to humans, this "intelligence" you speak of is comparative crap. Somehow I just knew somebody would give a bad argument, but wow, you speak of them as comparable.
...
FYI monkeys are stupid, as stupid as other animals, they simple have coordination, to do other things like your branch swinging.

This will undoubtedly blow your mind, but did you know that your gene sequence is over 98% identical to a chimpanzee's? Did you also know that apes can learn sign language, and have exhibited very human emotions towards each other and also towards pets?

Neanderthals? they arent even proven to exist, wtf is this??? Many, Many, scientists still don't believe in their existance, what's up next, bigfoot? the the abominal snowman? (the lochness monster was clearly a pleaseosaur), but Holy S***, this is really bad.

Are these the same scientists that try to give me Bibles on street corners?

Seriously guys, is this a serious discussion? or are we gonna keep with cracks like comparing dolphins to humans? And stating about legends?

There's dracula!

You're the one who is not being serious.

 

[niky]

Clearly you do not understand that compared to humans, this "intelligence" you speak of is comparative crap. Somehow I just knew somebody would give a bad argument, but wow, you speak of them as comparable.

Neanderthals? they arent even proven to exist, wtf is this??? Many, Many, scientists still don't believe in their existance, what's up next, bigfoot? the the abominal snowman? (the lochness monster was clearly a pleaseosaur), but Holy S***, this is really bad.

Not to mention, I don't see them, how are they comparable to humans? they couldnt keep alive (assuming they were), went extinct, and that's that. I don't recall hearing of them being anything like people, other than supposedly looking kinda like, monkeys can do that.
FYI monkeys are stupid, as stupid as other animals, they simple have coordination, to do other things like your branch swinging.

Seriously guys, is this a serious discussion? or are we gonna keep with cracks like comparing dolphins to humans? And stating about legends?

There's dracula!

Please read, research and get a college education before you say things like this.

Some monkeys are smarter than some people. Seriously. I've worked in schools and hospitals with people who are completely non-functional. From this, could I say that humanity is completely non-intelligent? No.

Chimps and Gorillas can acquire a functional vocabulary of hundreds of word-symbols, and can string them together in new ways depending on social and functional situations. Some impaired people, say, like autists, can't master language at all.

Just because chimpanzees and gorillas are only as smart as young children doesn't mean they're unintelligent, merely less.

And I would love to know which so-called "scientists" don't believe that Neanderthals existed. It should be good for a laugh.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Please read, research and get a college education before you say things like this.

Some monkeys are smarter than some people. Seriously. I've worked in schools and hospitals with people who are completely non-functional. From this, could I say that humanity is completely non-intelligent? No.

Chimps and Gorillas can acquire a functional vocabulary of hundreds of word-symbols, and can string them together in new ways depending on social and functional situations. Some impaired people, say, like autists, can't master language at all.

Just because chimpanzees and gorillas are only as smart as young children doesn't mean they're unintelligent, merely less.

And I would love to know which so-called "scientists" don't believe that Neanderthals existed. It should be good for a laugh.

wow, you compare an impaired person to a genius monkey? shall we name some of the things some of these autistic people can do that monkeys can't?
P.S. I would sincerly hope you understand the ability to speak a certain language is no means of intelligence. unless you can speak monkey? do you really know how well monkeys can speak to each other?
better yet, let's compare the bestest monkeys evers, and compares thems tos retarded people... wait, you're being rediculas

Show me the monkey's.....car, house, electric, phone, boat, coat, shirt.... nevermind they arent comparable, they are so far inferior it would be like comparing a 2 year old toddler to a 30 year-old genius....

How come 99% of what I hear of "neanderthals" is in tabloids, right beside bigfoot? why is that? along with Jesus, ALIVE!
did you know Bill Clinton has 18 nipples?

So, again, why are we so far, far, far, superior to all other beings? (please, no crap this time).

P.S. HUMANS teach your "smart" monkeys.... they can't teach any of these things to each other....yeah, brilliant.

College education? you're now assuming everything science says is correct. why? they've been wrong countless times for decades, why are they perfect now? why do you believe everything you hear from a man who says, "I'm a scientist"? and Creation is irrational? Maybe believing everything you hear from a scientist is irrational, given the countless errors mankind has made, and will continue to make.

Isnt Bigfoot supposedly a neanderthal?
How about this, instead of me naming scientists who don't believe in neandertahals, you provide some that do, to substantiate their existance, since after all, that is the rational, logical way to argue. First, establish a possibility, then, establish any and all possible arguments, then the word should go back to the original source, to see if he can counter any arguments, now, continue, until all has been covered.
Establish.FONT]

 

[Kylehnat]

Wow. Twenty-two years old, are you?

 

[code_kev]

wow, you compare an impaired person to a genius monkey? shall we name some of the things some of these autistic people can do that monkeys can't?

You sound like one of those "I'm a monkey's uncle" idiots from the Victorian age.

P.S. I would sincerly hope you understand the ability to speak a certain language is no means of intelligence. unless you can speak monkey? do you really know how well monkeys can speak to each other?
better yet, let's compare the bestest monkeys evers, and compares thems tos retarded people... wait, you're being rediculas

Mastering a language that is not your own is a sign of intelligence. I'm not saying that the signing monkeys have some kind of "uber" intelligence, but they have the ability to realise that certain signs they make get a certain response. I'm also not saying that apes are anywhere near as smart as we are, so lets be clear on that okay.

Show me the monkey's.....car, house, electric, phone, boat, coat, shirt.... nevermind they arent comparable, they are so far inferior it would be like comparing a 2 year old toddler to a 30 year-old genius....

This point is, well, pointless.

How come 99% of what I hear of "neanderthals" is in tabloids, right beside bigfoot? why is that? along with Jesus, ALIVE!
did you know Bill Clinton has 18 nipples?

Obviously because you only read tabloids.

So, again, why are we so far, far, far, superior to all other beings? (please, no crap this time).

Probably because all our rivals are dead.

P.S. HUMANS teach your "smart" monkeys.... they can't teach any of these things to each other....yeah, brilliant.

What?

College education? you're now assuming everything science says is correct. why? they've been wrong countless times for decades, why are they perfect now? why do you believe everything you hear from a man who says, "I'm a scientist"? and Creation is irrational? Maybe believing everything you hear from a scientist is irrational, given the countless errors mankind has made, and will continue to make.

I'd like to add that the Church has also made countless errors. Scientists tend to be correct more often though, using reasoning and experimentation rather then blind faith and a vivid imagination.

CODE KEV Maybe you'll like the story of my Mother, who died at the age of 40, back in 96. She had breast cancer, science said no, and God said no. she died.
Does that mean everybody in her situation will? No.
My Grandpa, had a 5x bypass surgery, and many other challenges, which he overtook with leaps and bounds, recovering to perfect health, everytime, yet, shortly after my Mother's passing, he developed cancer very quickly and died just over a year after she did. Why? I can tell you he no longer had much (if any) will to live. I can also tell you he died very fast, and did not fight, after all, he developed cancer, and died of it in 1 year. yet before he lost that seemingly unstoppable life urge, he chugged right through anything coming his way. tell me why.

Well I'm sorry for your loss man, but why you ask? I'd guess that it's because cancer is so nasty (I've had relations die from it). Sometimes it's too much for science, and for the person it effects. Cancer is a different beast alltogether compared to things like heart surgery, it's treatments are mind blowingly harsh. Some people choose to die rather then get treated. So why did he die? Because he had Cancer. I doubt his outlook on life really effected anything.

 

[Touring Mars]

In comparing the intelligence of a chimp and a human, we must bear in mind that comparisons are relative...

...take this example:- If you simply consider chimp v human, and plot their relative intelligence on a two-point graph, you will always get a misleading result... humans will always come out on top, for instance:-

​

The scale on the Y-axis is arbitrary - but it has a reference value of 100 for humans... chimps are less intelligent than us... yay, we are the winners!

But... a two-point line is meaningless unless we can put it into some sort of meaningful context or perspective... let's now add to our graph some intelligence figures for some other living things, say 1) a yukka plant and 2) a sheep.... add these to our plot, and suddenly chimps don't look quite so dumb anymore...

​

The absolute values of these are, of course, arbitrary, but the values for chimp and human are the same on both graphs, only on the second graph, the difference between our intelligences are now put into a broader, more meaningful context... the fact remains, by 'our' standards of greatness, chimps are dumb. But on an overall scale that considers the relative intelligence of all living things, chimps rank very highly indeed, second only to humans (and probably dolphins too)...

....'mon the chimps!

 

[Danoff]

However i really do belive your mind can help, afterall what controls those germ killing bugs?

By "germ killing bugs" I assume you mean "immune system". Does your mind control it? How exactly?

 

[Swift]

By "germ killing bugs" I assume you mean "immune system". Does your mind control it? How exactly?

It controls it completely. Just not consciously.

However, we all know stress and the lack of stress have a profound effect on the immune system and it's ability to defend the body.

 

[Danoff]

It controls it completely. Just not consciously.

How?

 

[Famine]

My third professional specialist subject is immunology, and I'd like to know that too.

 

[Swift]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but does the brain not control what goes on in the body as far as the immune system goes. It's fine if I'm wrong, but that's how I've understood it.

 

[Famine]

Nope.

 

[Swift]

Famine and his classic one liner's. Fine, I'm wrong.

And stress does effect the immune system.

 

[Famine]

Yes, it does.

The immune system relies on chemical/chemical interaction, independant of the brain. However, in different conditions the body (read: the brain) will release hormones (or not) which can aid or hinder the efficiency of this system.

 

[Swift]

Wow, that was so much better then "nope". That is the answer worthy of someone that has his third professional specialist in immunology.

So it's something that's completely setup before birth and is generally indepenent of any type of brain function, voluntary or not?

 

[Famine]

No - it evolves throughout your life.

There's a certain genetic component, but every time your immune system receives an assault it learns how to deal with the assault. This is how vaccinations work - you inject inert viruses into the body. The immune system picks it up and goes "hold up... don't recognise this", works out how to dispose of it and then remembers it - through T-memory cells - for future reference, in case that virus (in a live form) comes back again.

 

[Swift]

No - it evolves throughout your life.

There's a certain genetic component, but every time your immune system receives an assault it learns how to deal with the assault. This is how vaccinations work - you inject inert viruses into the body. The immune system picks it up and goes "hold up... don't recognise this", works out how to dispose of it and then remembers it - through T-memory cells - for future reference, in case that virus (in a live form) comes back again.

Thanks.

Yep, I understood that part but I thought the brain had something to do with it even on a subconscious level.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, so now that we're on the same page - the healing of a wound or the fighting off of an illness are both simple biological processes. They don't invovle the brain, and they don't involve the will.

Terri Schaivo would have healed if you cut her. Her body would fight off a cold even though her brain didn't exist. So how can one's "will" assist in the virus-killing or bone-fixing process?

It has been asked, how it is possible that some people's bodies are able to sustain more damage or ward off more illnesses than others? I have already answered this - everyone is different. We all have difference genes and physical makeup. It's not all cosmetic, our muscles, bones, immune systems, hearts, lungs, all of it is a little different thanks to genetics. That's why some people are predisposed to heart attacks or arrhythmia... and that's just the genetic difference. There will also be a difference in how one has treated their body. If you drink and smoke every day you'll be more likely to have certain problems - but probably less likely to have others. Like I said before, everyone is different. Both nature and nurture play a role.

So I have an explanation for why everyone reacts differently to the same stimulus. Do you have an explanation for how one's willpower can influence the healing process?

 

[Swift]

Ok, so now that we're on the same page - the healing of a wound or the fighting off of an illness are both simple biological processes. They don't invovle the brain, and they don't involve the will.

Terri Schaivo would have healed if you cut her. Her body would fight off a cold even though her brain didn't exist. So how can one's "will" assist in the virus-killing or bone-fixing process?

Famine explained that. The brain gives off hormones that directly effect the chemical/chemical reactions of the immune system. So, if a person's "will" is of a less stressed and optomistic state of mind. It's reasonable to conclude that they will get better faster.

 

[Danoff]

Famine explained that. The brain gives off hormones that directly effect the chemical/chemical reactions of the immune system. So, if a person's "will" is of a less stressed and optomistic state of mind. It's reasonable to conclude that they will get better faster.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. Don't get me wrong, what you say is plausible given only the information Famine wrote - but scientifically it makes zero sense. Why would our bodies be rigged to fight our immune system when we're under stress? I just don't see the advantage in any situation.

If it is true that our brains emit some sort of hormone while we're stressed that hinders our immune system (which has not been established), then it must confer some other advantage which I'd like to know about. But if both of those are true, and you believe in God, then God made man imperfect. He should have made a hormone that didn't affect our immune system. He also should have done something about that blind spot in our vision, and really should have done something about our rapidly deteriorating eyesight. These things say to me that man is flawed - not designed by God.

 

[Swift]

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. Don't get me wrong, what you say is plausible given only the information Famine wrote - but scientifically it makes zero sense. Why would our bodies be rigged to fight our immune system when we're under stress? I just don't see the advantage in any situation.

If it is true that our brains emit some sort of hormone while we're stressed that hinders our immune system (which has not been established), then it must confer some other advantage which I'd like to know about. But if both of those are true, and you believe in God, then God made man imperfect. He should have made a hormone that didn't affect our immune system. He also should have done something about that blind spot in our vision, and really should have done something about our rapidly deteriorating eyesight. These things say to me that man is flawed - not designed by God.

It sounds to me that you think stress is a good thing. The mind is in control of the body. That's been a given since recorded history. If you're constantly in a negative, angry, hostile, anxious or otherwise stress state of mind that has an effect on your body. Period.

It has nothing to do with how God made us. There are parts to some stress that are good. Like adreniline, but too much of that is bad for you as well. Actually, God mad man perfect, then man disobeyed God. And this is when all the "bad" stuff happened.

So, yes man is flawed, but it's our fault, not God.