Creation vs. Evolution

[Danoff]

It sounds to me that you think stress is a good thing. The mind is in control of the body. That's been a given since recorded history. If you're constantly in a negative, angry, hostile, anxious or otherwise stress state of mind that has an effect on your body. Period.

It has nothing to do with how God made us. There are parts to some stress that are good. Like adreniline, but too much of that is bad for you as well. Actually, God mad man perfect, then man disobeyed God. And this is when all the "bad" stuff happened.

So, yes man is flawed, but it's our fault, not God.

Ok so let me get this straight. Our blind spot was created by God to get back at us for disobeying? That doesn't make much sense does it? It doesn't affect any of us to any real degree - but it's there. So why is that punishment for disobeying? It's not much of a punishment. I'll bet you're going to blame tonsilitis on man's disobeying God as well...

I'm not doubting that stress has physical effects on your body. I'm questioning why it would have an effect on your immune system and why that effect would be negative.

 

[Famine]

I'm sorry, I was too vague in my last post.

We're quite a delicate balance of chemicals. For the most part we're okay, but in certain situations - like stress, or extreme physical trauma - our body will react in such a way that it opens itself to external assault (bugs) in its attempt to preserve itself from internal damage.

At least two disorders I can think of have stress-related causes. Stomach ulcers (Helicobacter pylori) and Shingles (Herpes simplex) can both arise when stress leaves the body unguarded, allowing these little buggers to get a hold. The exact physical response responsible for this I can't quite recall at the present (because it's late and I'm drunk), but I believe it's due to a lack of certain hormones caused by stress, prompting the body to protect the central nervous system from entering shock at the expense of immune response.

In any case, an immune response relies on identification by the memory cells, followed by replication of antibodies, helper and killer cells. If your body's resources are concentrated elsewhere, replication does not occur (as efficiently), allowing a viral foothold to form before an adequate response can be mounted.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, so the alteration to the chemical balance due to stress is designed to help us protect ourselves from physical damage, but it does so at the expense of the immune system. Got it.

So one's frame of mind can affect one's immune system - that still doesn't explain how someone can will themselves better. I like the Terri Schaivo example I used earlier. She was probably capable of fighting off lots of illness and didn't use her will at all to do so (because she didn't have one). A vegetable like her is probably better at fighting off a cold than someone who stresses out about everything... but how is that a battle of will?

 

[Famine]

I wouldn't say will - or even any conscious frame of mind - had anything to do with it.

Otherwise my extreme pessimist father would be dead twenty times by now...

 

[Small_Fryz]

But it is possible positiving thinking and such can Improve your chances of getting better as well as making your body more effiecient when fighting it?

 

[niky]

Well, some doctors think so. But then, the Doctor's Creed is to provide the best quality of life for the patient, and a positive outlook in the face of an overwhelming possibility of death is always a good thing.

I think a positive outlook does help, because extra stress can only hinder recovery. The mere absence of stress is beneficial. That's why we encourage patients at our hospital to pray. Keeps them from feeling too morbid.

Faith healing, though... (gods, how long ago did you guys get off on this tangent?) ...I don't know. I live in a primarily Catholic country, and there are a lot of charlatans around. I personally have a dim view of anyone who offers to pray for your recovery... for a suitably large monetary donation.

Fun fact: Andy Kaufmann went to the Philippines to be healed by a psychic surgeon... obviously, it didn't work.

In conclusion... if you want to get better, relax, and if you need to, pray.

Probably because all our rivals are dead.

You know, that's probably the best answer to the question ever. 👍

@LeadSlead#2: I was going to call you an idiot, but then I saw your sig...

Back on to intelligence. Touring Mars was right, you do have to look at it on a relative scale. And note: Humans did not produce telephones, microwaves and zippers (probably one of the best inventions ever... a work of topological genius) from scratch. They do have a cultural background that gives them certain amount of stock knowledge that they can draw from and improve upon. Which is why so many people "invented" the airplane, or the automobile.

Chimps do not have a complex language of their own, but they can learn language and can perform such linguistic feats as linking terms or creating new terms by combining old ones to describe new situations or objects. This implies the capacity for abstraction. They can also use simple tools.

What they do lack is the ability to create more complex tools, object permanence (when they've finished using a rock or twig, they'll throw it away) and higher abstraction and reasoning. Oh, and they're also homicidally territorial little buggers... which means they can't maintain large social groupings or have any semblance of a proto-civilization.

Which isn't too different from people, actually.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. Don't get me wrong, what you say is plausible given only the information Famine wrote - but scientifically it makes zero sense. Why would our bodies be rigged to fight our immune system when we're under stress? I just don't see the advantage in any situation.

If it is true that our brains emit some sort of hormone while we're stressed that hinders our immune system (which has not been established), then it must confer some other advantage which I'd like to know about. But if both of those are true, and you believe in God, then God made man imperfect. He should have made a hormone that didn't affect our immune system. He also should have done something about that blind spot in our vision, and really should have done something about our rapidly deteriorating eyesight. These things say to me that man is flawed - not designed by God.

Now I thought you were of the opinion that millions of atoms randomly accumulated and eventually evoloved into humans, no? in that case, why is it so hard to grasp that the very thing we do most ( get stressed ) when sick, is what's bad for us. Simply because atoms arent perfect, especially when they simply form into beings by random chance.
Get it now? You bring up God, but ignore that, by your belief, it makes perfect sense simply because it doesnt have to, and frankly, it shouldnt either.

Congratulations, you answered you're own question, and then tripped, fell, and argued against yourself.

P.S. If God made man perfect, we wouldnt ever die, would we? then how could we ever go to heaven, with him?

P.S.S. I don't believe anything ever said God tried to make humans perfect.
Very lousy point here.


If anybody doesnt understand something really, really simple I say, just forget it instead of posting, huh? (It makes you sound dumberer)

 

[Kylehnat]

Simply because atoms arent perfect

Atoms actually are perfect; that's why they're the basic building blocks of matter.

If anybody doesnt understand something really, really simple I say, just forget it instead of posting, huh? (It makes you sound dumberer)

This is dripping with so much irony, I might have to go outside (in the rain) to dry off.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Now I thought you were of the opinion that millions of atoms randomly accumulated and eventually evoloved into humans, no? in that case, why is it so hard to grasp that the very thing we do most ( get stressed ) when sick, is what's bad for us. Simply because atoms arent perfect, especially when they simply form into beings by random chance.
Get it now? You bring up God, but ignore that, by your belief, it makes perfect sense simply because it doesnt have to, and frankly, it shouldnt either.

Congratulations, you answered you're own question, and then tripped, fell, and argued against yourself.

P.S. If God made man perfect, we wouldnt ever die, would we? then how could we ever go to heaven, with him?

P.S.S. I don't believe anything ever said God tried to make humans perfect.
Very lousy point here.


If anybody doesnt understand something really, really simple I say, just forget it instead of posting, huh? (It makes you sound dumberer)

forgotten

 

[niky]

You know, LeadSlead#2: This is the Opinions Forum, not the Rumble Strip or Comedy Corner. We're trying to have a serious discussion here.

 

[Touring Mars]

Horizon, shown at 9pm (GMT) on BBC2 (UK) tonight, will discuss the rise of the intelligent design movement... (A War On Science)

(Do any of you in the US have access to BBC by satellite/cable etc.?)

- " Did nature do its own creating, as Darwin thought, or did the world spring from the hand of an intelligent designer? You might think it's an argument that was long since settled, but in the USA it's very much a live issue, with a recent court case in Pennsylvania provoking controversy over whether alternative views to evolution can be legally taught in the science classroom. This film does a terrific job of exploring the debate (if that's not too strong a word) and gives the proponents of intelligent design a good shout before, thankfully, demolishing them. David Attenborough and Richard Dawkins add gravitas to one of the best Horizons for a long time. "

The show is repeated on Tuesday 31st January at 11.10 pm, sadly on BBC2 again...

 

[niky]

Shoot, I only get BBC1.

 

[Zardoz]

...(Do any of you in the US have access to BBC by satellite/cable etc.?)...

No, but BBC programs make their way over here one way or another. This one will too, eventually. It'll be run on PBS, the Science Channel, the Discovery Channel, or maybe BBC America.

 

[Danoff]

Now I thought you were of the opinion that millions of atoms randomly accumulated and eventually evoloved into humans, no?

No not really. I've said it probably 100 times in this thread already, but I'll say it again on the off chance that people read it this time. Mankind did not form randomly.

Ok let that sink in for a moment.

Planets didn't randomly form in extremely similar ways in solar systems across the universe. If it happens over and over the same way it isn't random . Do you know why it isn't random? Newton's law of gravitation!

Life doesn't form randomly either , it's actually fairly predictable and obvious. Evolution favors the strong over the weak - that's not random, that's a process. It makes SENSE that natural selection works... in fact, once you think about it enough, you can't figure out how it could happen any other way. There isn't anything random about it (unless you look at it on the micro level), it's a natural process that was going to happen.

in that case, why is it so hard to grasp that the very thing we do most ( get stressed ) when sick, is what's bad for us.

Perhaps because it's not advantageous. Why would God design us that way? Why would natural selection favor those individuals whose stress level hurt their immune system? Turns out there is a reason. I'm not completely surprised. I couldn't figure out the reason because I don't understand the inner workings of the human body all that well.

 

[Zardoz]

So much for the myth that the debate is unique to America:

Britons unconvinced on evolution

 

[a6m5]

No not really. I've said it probably 100 times in this thread already, but I'll say it again on the off chance that people read it this time. Mankind did not form randomly.

Ok let that sink in for a moment.

Planets didn't randomly form in extremely similar ways in solar systems across the universe. If it happens over and over the same way it isn't random . Do you know why it isn't random? Newton's law of gravitation!

Life doesn't form randomly either , it's actually fairly predictable and obvious. Evolution favors the strong over the weak - that's not random, that's a process. It makes SENSE that natural selection works... in fact, once you think about it enough, you can't figure out how it could happen any other way. There isn't anything random about it (unless you look at it on the micro level), it's a natural process that was going to happen.

One of the best posts I've seen from you, danoff. Thank you. 👍

 

[niky]

So much for the myth that the debate is unique to America:

Britons unconvinced on evolution

Hmmm... but we know the Brits always support the US in important decisions like these.

Still, less than half believe in evolution... but only 22% believe in creationism, with the difference being brought up by intelligent design.

It really does bring into question how effective science teaching is in the west nowadays.

 

[Touring Mars]

So much for the myth that the debate is unique to America:

Britons unconvinced on evolution

Interesting article 👍 I missed that one....

Taken one way, these figures suggest that Intelligent Design theory has a strong foothold of support in the UK. But I think this is misleading... most people don't know what Intelligent Design theory really is. My guess is that if people actually knew what ID theory is all about, then they would reject it... but it appeals to the public's natural sense of fair play to be willing to accept that for any given theory (i.e. evolution) then an alternative theory should also be allowed (ID theory)... similarly, by virtue of the fact that not everyone has ever studied biology, the public understanding of evolution theory also leaves alot to be desired.

Belief in Creationism is more understandable to me than ID theory, simply because it 'keeps it simple'... Creationism merely states that present living forms were made exactly as described in the Bible. However ID 'theory' attempts to offer an explanation, based on "scientific evidence", that proves that complex life was designed. Less people believe ID theory because less people know what it is. And even less people know what it really stands for, which in reality, is indistinct from biblical creationism! (note that the most prominent ID theorists themselves (Michael Behe, William Dembski and Phillip Johnson), however, do NOT say that God is the designer... they merely say that there IS a designer, and that 'God' is a 'perfect candidate' or a 'convenient choice' to fit the bill... The reason they do not explicitly say that 'Yes, we DO mean God' is because the minute they do, they are legally not allowed to teach their theory in science class anymore. Hence why they are required to relegate God to the role of 'candidate' for the job of Grand Designer of the Universe....)

But the problem with the "scientific evidence" that supports the claims and indeed the very basis of the theory of intelligent design, is that it is quite simply wrong. It's as simple as that. None of the 'evidence' put forth to support ID theory thus far has withstood scrutiny. Therefore, as a scientific theory, if it ever was one, ID theory is dead. Of course, ID theorists can always return to their true calling, biblical creationism, but then they are not allowed to teach it in science class any more! What is an ID theorist to do??

However, it is not just science class that ID theorists would like to pervade. Indeed, it is the whole education system from the roots up - and it doesn't stop there either. Their real goal is religious indoctrination from the word go, in a grand attempt to change the face of (American) society en masse, to reverse what religious extremists perceive as an overall decline in moral standards and behaviour. This is the fat end of the 'wedge'... what is at stake here is not just a few minor modifications to some biology textbooks, but much more besides. ID theorists and their religious fundamentalist 'wedge' strategy seek no less than an abandonment of the concepts of naturalism and rational scientific enquiry as a whole - this is why it is not just biology teachers that should be worried...

 

[Kylehnat]

I think a lot of people buy into ID becuase it's a convenient way for them to not have a real stance on the subject. They don't want to upset their religious friends by rejecting God, and they don't want to upset their biologist friends by accepting creationism. It's just a fad. Once someone spills the beans that intelligent design is a clever euphamism for creationism, the jig will be up.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Bill Hicks: Ever notice the people who believe in creationalism look and sound really under evolved?

Bill Hicks: A man dies and goes to heaven. Meets St Peter at the Pearly Gates and Peter asks him one simple question "Do you believe in dinosaurs?" The man says "Well they've found fossils and all sorts of evidence to support them, so I'd have to say that... Yes, I do". St. Peter smacks himself in the forehead pushes a button and a trap door opens under the man, just before gravity takes hold St. Peter says "You idiot, that was just God ****ing with you!!!" As the man starts to falls into the pits of hell he screams up "But it all seemed so plausible!!!” and the gates of hell close. The idea of a cynical God playing tricks on people is very disconcerting for me. I hope for all our sakes this isn’t true.

I only put this in here for a little comic relief, in this otherwise very good debate about things we’ll never really know the answer to. Please ladies and gents, continue your great debate… I implore you… No really, good stuff guys… A good read.👍

 

[LeadSlead#2]

well, in the bible, God makes bets with Satan over whether or not his strongest believer will lose faith if satan destroys his life.... it is a little sadistic...

My only real stance is that somebody's gotta be running the show, even if everything science knows as true really is, these perfect atoms had to come from somewhere... and science will never tell you about that.(unless atoms come from somewhere, but then, you'll need to know where that came from to) <--- Winking face there.

Great Point Danoff! now stop ignoring the part where I pointed out that it's quite clear God didnt make humans perfect, and never claimed he did! if he did, we'd never die! (the rest was actually good though)

 

[Canadian Speed]

Humans (according to Catholic teachings) were made perfect, only they were given a will to choose what they wanted. When Eve, ate the apple of wisdom and got Adam to eat as well, tempted by Satan as the snake, they developed an awareness and were cast out of Eden... and along with this awareness they developped shame... which apparently is why we wear clothes now. It was at this point where their perfection was lost, tainted by the apple. Once casted out of Eden all Humans after them would now die and women would bare terrible pain durring child birth as punishment for disobeying to God's will. So, he made them perfect physically... at first, humans were never supposed to die. At one point in the Bible it talks about people, Abraham and I beleive Noah as being something like hundreds of years old... Like 800 years or so. As the species developped, our life span became shorter and shorter until it basically got to the point where we are now... approximatly 100 years if you're lucky/healthy, I guess as the gene pool became infected and more and more unpure, it had it's toll on our overall DNA... if you believe in creationalism. The old testament is pretty cool... I wish they'd make a movie about it or something... Have the creation of Earth, with the fall of Lucifer and the battle for Earth, all the way to the fall of man... I think those would make killer movies...

 

[LeadSlead#2]

^^^all true.

BUT, I must say, people are living much longer now than they did just 200 years ago.. I believe just back in the 1800's, the average person lived to only 50 or 60...now it's up to 70+, in most European countries, along with America

 

[Canadian Speed]

Yes... very true... why, because of science... And if science can do things like fix God's doings, who's to say that "it" dosen't provide the answers to how things "went down" in the first place... A few links of interest...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04475a.htm

Actuely, it's just this one, but you can look up any term or name or fact on any "Catholic" subject here... Great resource by people I'd wager that are more knowledgeble then any on this thread so far... But as it's an opions thread... so be it...

P.S. Abraham died at like 180 years, they never give, or I have yet to find Adams age of death... maybe he's still alive, or was before the US bombed him in the middle East (kidding)

 

[Canadian Speed]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05655a.htm

 

[Swift]

P.S. Abraham died at like 180 years, they never give, or I have yet to find Adams age of death... maybe he's still alive, or was before the US bombed him in the middle East (kidding)

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[Danoff]

Humans (according to Catholic teachings) were made perfect, only they were given a will to choose what they wanted. When Eve, ate the apple of wisdom and got Adam to eat as well, tempted by Satan as the snake, they developed an awareness and were cast out of Eden... and along with this awareness they developped shame... which apparently is why we wear clothes now. It was at this point where their perfection was lost, tainted by the apple. Once casted out of Eden all Humans after them would now die and women would bare terrible pain durring child birth as punishment for disobeying to God's will. So, he made them perfect physically... at first, humans were never supposed to die. At one point in the Bible it talks about people, Abraham and I beleive Noah as being something like hundreds of years old... Like 800 years or so. As the species developped, our life span became shorter and shorter until it basically got to the point where we are now... approximatly 100 years if you're lucky/healthy, I guess as the gene pool became infected and more and more unpure, it had it's toll on our overall DNA... if you believe in creationalism. The old testament is pretty cool... I wish they'd make a movie about it or something... Have the creation of Earth, with the fall of Lucifer and the battle for Earth, all the way to the fall of man... I think those would make killer movies...

God sounds pretty immature if you ask me.

 

[Swift]

God sounds pretty immature if you ask me.

For punishing someone for doing what he said not to do? How is that immature? Also, Adam could've admitted it and gotten forgiven, but he blamed Eve and she blamed the snake. So they wussed out instead of fessing up.

 

[Danoff]

For punishing someone for doing what he said not to do? How is that immature? Also, Adam could've admitted it and gotten forgiven, but he blamed Eve and she blamed the snake. So they wussed out instead of fessing up.

Why does he care? Why does God care that they disobeyed? What did he want them to do in the garden anyway? Sit there? Hang out? Count leaves? Not gain any knowledge? Why did God not want man to have knowledge? If he made man perfect, why did man disobey? It only reflects an imperfection in God's creation - a mistake on his part. God needed to take responsibility for Adam eating the apple, since he created Adam and Eve in such a way as to be willing to disobey his commands.

...and how exactly is it fair to punish future generations for the mistakes of the previous? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Kylehnat]

For punishing someone for doing what he said not to do? How is that immature?

Maybe not immature, but punishing every human that comes after them is a bit over the top, don't you think? I thought if anyone was capable of not holding a grudge and granting forgiveness, it would be God. This suggests otherwise.