Creation vs. Evolution

[Canadian Speed]

God made us with these desires. Why would he do that? Why would he make Adam have the desire to go against his will? If Adam caves to that desire, it's God's fault for putting it there in the first place.

A little correction here… He gave us will. The ability to choose options based on information or factors provided to us. Not desire or want.

 

[Touring Mars]

yeah, and God CREATED satan.

Maybe that's a relative thing... like light 'creates' dark - only by it's very presence does a relative or opposite force become apparent. What is more interesting for me is that God would also have to have created himself first. How did He do that? The simplistic answer is, He didn't, or atleast He didn't have to - He has always existed, and always will - God is a continuum that has no beginning and no end. But, if we are prepared, or even allowed, to accept the rationale behind this argument, then we should logically also be prepared to accept that other things can (and have) also always existed, like the universe or the matter it is comprised of. If God requires no designer, then why does the Universe require one?

Of course, there is evidence (the central body of which forms the basis for Big Bang theory) that strongly points to the fact that the 'observable' universe has not always existed - that it came into being a finite length of time ago. This evidence, considered as a scientific fact, does not preclude God. If the observable universe is indeed of a finite age, then what's to say that God didn't create it? May he did... but the point is, if we allow ourselves to 'understand' the mechanism by which the universe (and all it contains) came into being, simply by saying that God made it, then we are not answering the question, since the question then becomes, so who made God? The answer that God wasn't made (or designed) then begs the question, if God wasn't made or designed, then why should we believe that the Universe was?

Creationists (ID theorists) argue that anything with structure must have had a designing hand at work before it, except for God, who for extremely tenious reasons, is exempt from this particular prerequisite. But their argument is entirely based on the supposition that everything (except God himself) requires a designer. For me this doesn't hold water, especially since we can readily observe multiple examples of self-organisation in the natural world that may give the appearance of design, but infact is not designed at all. (like hurricanes, organic crystals, amyloid (protein) fibres in Alzheimer's Disease etc. etc. )

 

[Small_Fryz]

Once again, another stunning post Touring Mars 👍 rep for you!

 

[Small_Fryz]

Also

Since Gods knows everything, he knows everything before he himself does it, which means he has no choice to start with. If he changes what he will do, the outcome differs to what he originally thought would happen.
Which would then make the statement "god knows everything" false. If this statement was true God would know he would change the situation in the 1st place, which would really mean their was no change as god knew the outcome already.

He knows the outcome, so he has no choice but to fullfil the outcome that he already knows!

It doesnt make a lot of sense, so much contradictory terms!!

 

[Danoff]

Second, I'm telling you that God gave humans free will to choose what they want to do. So Adam could've been the smartest being in existance, next to God, and he STILL could've taken the fruit.

Swift, you said Adam was perfect right? Wasn't eating the fruit a mistake? If so, then how can you consider Adam perfect? If Adam wasn't perfect, who's fault is that? If God did something wrong by not making Adam perfect, there are two problems:

1) How can he blame Adam
2) How can he be God if he makes mistakes?

You see the death spiral here? This one little issue - that God CREATED Adam, leads to the downfall of the concept of God simply because Adam made a mistake.

 

[Swift]

Swift, you said Adam was perfect right? Wasn't eating the fruit a mistake? If so, then how can you consider Adam perfect? If Adam wasn't perfect, who's fault is that? If God did something wrong by not making Adam perfect, there are two problems:

1) How can he blame Adam
2) How can he be God if he makes mistakes?

You see the death spiral here? This one little issue - that God CREATED Adam, leads to the downfall of the concept of God simply because Adam made a mistake.

I don't remember saying Adam was perfect. I know I said that he didn't age or get sick before the fall. But if I did, please quote it.

To Small Fryz: The difference is that WE don't know everything that God knows. Hence we have a choice. God is in all three time-space relations at once. Past, present and future. So yes, he knows everything that has happened, happening now and going to happen. And it will play out the way God has forseen. However, that doesn't mean that our choice is hindered. Now, if we somehow knew exactly what God knows on his time table, then we wouldn't have free will.

 

[Danoff]

I don't remember saying Adam was perfect. I know I said that he didn't age or get sick before the fall. But if I did, please quote it.

Must have been someone else. But no matter, my argument still stands, just pretend I didn't say the part about Adam being perfect.

 

[Swift]

Must have been someone else. But no matter, my argument still stands, just pretend I didn't say the part about Adam being perfect.

Actually, you're whole statement was built on the premise that Adam was perfect.

 

[Danoff]

Humans (according to Catholic teachings) were made perfect, only they were given a will to choose what they wanted. When Eve, ate the apple of wisdom and got Adam to eat as well, tempted by Satan as the snake, they developed an awareness and were cast out of Eden.

This is where I got the whole perfect thing..


Anyway.

Actually, you're whole statement was built on the premise that Adam was perfect.

No, it isn't - at least not all of it.

God gave Adam free will you say. And Adam abused that will to break God's rules. Well, God must have known (he is all-knowing) that Adam would do this - and could have made Adam differently such that he would not have broken the rules. He could have done that simply by giving Adam knowledge of the outside world - showing Adam his punishment for breaking the rule. He could have made Adam a panzy so that Adam would be too afraid to break the rule. He could have made Adam gay so that he would not be blinded by his affection for Eve when she offered the Apple. He could have made Adam really hate fruit. There are bazillions of ways that God could have made Adam differently such that he would not have wanted the fruit. But God didn't do that. Before he even made Adam, God knew that he would sin (he is all-knowing), so how does he not take any responsibility for Adam's sin? God knew that his creation was not perfect, that Adam would make a mistake - yet he did nothing to improve his creation such that it would not make mistakes.

If you ask me, God has to share in the fault. Which means that God (if he is a just God) should not blame Adam (at least not entirely) for his mistakes, and should certainly not blame future generations for being the sinning offspring of the sinners HE created. God made us flawed (regardless of whether he made Adam and Eve flawed) so how can he blame us for being flawed?

 

[Swift]

If you ask me, God has to share in the fault. Which means that God (if he is a just God) should not blame Adam (at least not entirely) for his mistakes, and should certainly not blame future generations for being the sinning offspring of the sinners HE created. God made us flawed (regardless of whether he made Adam and Eve flawed) so how can he blame us for being flawed?

How can you blame a child for breaking the rules? After all, they're not perfect...

 

[Danoff]

How can you blame a child for breaking the rules? After all, they're not perfect...

What constitutes blame here? Would I kill my child from breaking the rules (like God killed Adam)? Certainly not. I would be aware of my children's nature - as human beings. The natural propensity for curiosity - including the curiosity surrounding what they can get away with, and how bad the punishment really will be. I would expect my children to break the rules - which is why even though I'll tell them that guns are dangerous and show them how to be safe with them, I'll lock my guns in a safe at all times when I have kids.

You punish a child for breaking the rules because you know they can be taught to follow most rules... but you'll never expect them to be perfect.

The fact remains, God created man flawed - so how can he blame us for being flawed?

Edit: Just because you expect your children to break the rules doesn't mean you don't set them, or that you don't punish them, or that you even let them know that you expect it to happen. I was just pointing out that I wouldn't expect anything else from curious human children.

 

[Swift]

What constitutes blame here? Would I kill my child from breaking the rules (like God killed Adam)? Certainly not. I would be aware of my children's nature - as human beings. The natural propensity for curiosity - including the curiosity surrounding what they can get away with, and how bad the punishment really will be. I would expect my children to break the rules - which is why even though I'll tell them that guns are dangerous and show them how to be safe with them, I'll lock my guns in a safe at all times when I have kids.

You punish a child for breaking the rules because you know they can be taught to follow most rules... but you'll never expect them to be perfect.

The fact remains, God created man flawed - so how can he blame us for being flawed?

Whoa, how do you raise a child? You give rules and boundaries and then consequenses for going outside those rules. So when they broke the rules, you punish them with the conequences that were told to the child BEFORE they messed up. How is that different from what God did? He told Adam, "Do this, you die. Do everything else and you'll be just fine" So, what did he do. The one thing he couldn't.

You can't blame God for that. He followed through with what he said he would do. If he didn't, then everyone would say that God is a liar.

 

[Danoff]

Whoa, how do you raise a child? You give rules and boundaries and then consequenses for going outside those rules. So when they broke the rules, you punish them with the conequences that were told to the child BEFORE they messed up. How is that different from what God did? He told Adam, "Do this, you die. Do everything else and you'll be just fine" So, what did he do. The one thing he couldn't.

You can't blame God for that. He followed through with what he said he would do. If he didn't, then everyone would say that God is a liar.

Oh sure, it's all very much like the child/parent situation. We're god's children afterall (yuck). He's our daddy, up there setting the rules so we don't get ourselves into trouble. I understand the concept behind God setting out rules and then following through.

But why did God say he would kill Adam if he broke the rules? Why did God set that as the punishment for a creature he knew would break the rules - a creature that he created in such a way as to want to break the rules.

You can't simply absolve God of responsibility in this simply because he gave Adam a mind and told him the rules. God MADE Adam to break the rules, he KNEW Adam would do it ahead of time. That makes him a party to it.

I don't actively make my child - otherwise I would certainly not make them imperfect. God CHOSE to make Adam imperfect because he's a mean mean God. He chose to make Adam weak of will, knowing that he would not live up to the rule - and then he sent Adam packing and is still punishing the rest of us for a weakness HE put in Adam ON PURPOSE. How is it just for God to punish us still for a mistake Adam was created to make?

In retrospect, this actually DOES sound like the kind of God that would place dinasour bones in the ground on purpose just to trick us into thinking the bible isn't correct.

 

[Swift]

Oh sure, it's all very much like the child/parent situation. We're god's children afterall (yuck). He's our daddy, up there setting the rules so we don't get ourselves into trouble. I understand the concept behind God setting out rules and then following through.

But why did God say he would kill Adam if he broke the rules? Why did God set that as the punishment for a creature he knew would break the rules - a creature that he created in such a way as to want to break the rules.

You can't simply absolve God of responsibility in this simply because he gave Adam a mind and told him the rules. God MADE Adam to break the rules, he KNEW Adam would do it ahead of time. That makes him a party to it.

God didn't MAKE Adam do anything. We have no clue how long they were in the garden before the fall. It could've been a few million years. But this thought that God made Adam sin is just ludicrous. We're free will beings. We can choose our own fate. Adam knew the punishment and still chose to break the rules. So that's how it goes.

Yes, I can absolve God of the responsibility. Because he told Adam what the deal was BEFORE he messed up. If he messed up and then God said,"Well, you're in for it now!" that would be sick.

 

[Pako]

danoff,

If I were a creator, and wanted to feel joy from my creations worshiping me, the joy would only be true if that worship was genuine and out of love. The joy would be empty if it was a 'programmed' response.

This makes sense to me, and it only speculative, but it's also logical (to me) why God gave us free will.

 

[Danoff]

danoff,

If I were a creator, and wanted to feel joy from my creations worshiping me, the joy would only be true if that worship was genuine and out of love. The joy would be empty if it was a 'programmed' response.

This makes sense to me, and it only speculative, but it's also logical (to me) why God gave us free will.

God didn't MAKE Adam do anything. We have no clue how long they were in the garden before the fall. It could've been a few million years. But this thought that God made Adam sin is just ludicrous. We're free will beings. We can choose our own fate. Adam knew the punishment and still chose to break the rules. So that's how it goes.

Yes, I can absolve God of the responsibility. Because he told Adam what the deal was BEFORE he messed up. If he messed up and then God said,"Well, you're in for it now!" that would be sick.

Trust me guys. I understand the concept behind God giving Man free will. I get it. But that's not all there is to man. We are more than our will. There are other qualities of man besides the freedom to act. Intelligence, judgement, morality, wisdom, the propensity for submission or rebellion. These qualities and more make up our character - and God gave Adam a flawed character if Adam would have a lapse in judgement as he did.

But what's more God KNEW Adam would fail. He knew it before he started his little experiment - God can't experiment because he knows the outcome before he even gets started right? So if God KNEW Adam would fail, then God created Adam to fail. That's the only possible thing that follows.

If you know that when you release a ball it will hit the ground - and you do it anyway - then you purposefully dropped the ball on the ground. You dropped it so that it would hit the ground.

So why would God create Adam to fail and then punish him for it?

Since God knows all, Adam was on as much a programmed path as a ball is that you drop to the ground. Adam bears more responsibility for his path, but nevertheless, if one knows the future, the path is set. The reasons for Adam's choices are set in motion - and so Adam's choices are prescribed. God knows this, yet he sets Adam on that path on purpose - then punishes him for it.

That strikes me as cruel.

 

[Swift]

Actually, the qualities you listed, intelligence wisdom and the like all effect how one exercises one's will. So I would say that the fundamental uniqueness of man is that he has free will and reason to accompany it.

God didn't create Adam to fail. He created Adam with the possibility of failing. Big difference. Also, God didn't give up on humans after the fall.

 

[Danoff]

Actually, the qualities you listed, intelligence wisdom and the like all effect how one exercises one's will. So I would say that the fundamental uniqueness of man is that he has free will and reason to accompany it.

But they are independent of will, and something that God could influence.

God didn't create Adam to fail. He created Adam with the possibility of failing. Big difference. Also, God didn't give up on humans after the fall.

He created Adam knowing he would fail - which is the same thing.

 

[Swift]

But they are independent of will, and something that God could influence.

But they all effect will. If saying to someone, "Do this and you'll die" isn't enough to effect them, then nothing is.

He created Adam knowing he would fail - which is the same thing.

Adam was created with the possibility of faliure and the possibility of greatness. That's part of having free will. If Adam couldn't choose to fail, then it wouldn't truly be free will.

 

[Danoff]

But they all effect will. If saying to someone, "Do this and you'll die" isn't enough to effect them, then nothing is.

If that isn't enough to effect them, then they're pretty stupid and need to be designed better.

Adam was created with the possibility of faliure and the possibility of greatness. That's part of having free will. If Adam couldn't choose to fail, then it wouldn't truly be free will.

So God didn't know that Adam would fail? I thought God knew everything.

 

[Swift]

So God didn't know that Adam would fail? I thought God knew everything.

When did I say that? All I said was that if Adam couldn't fail, then he didn't have free will.

 

[Danoff]

When did I say that? All I said was that if Adam couldn't fail, then he didn't have free will.

Adam was created with the possibility of faliure and the possibility of greatness. That's part of having free will. If Adam couldn't choose to fail, then it wouldn't truly be free will.

Adam was created with the impending doom of failure. God knew he would fail and created him anyway to let him fail.

 

[Pako]

You seem to think that when people do bad things, then it's God's fault because he could have changed, influenced, or prevented it from happening? And because of this He must be a cruel God? I see you focus a lot on the negative, how about all the things he 'allows' to happen that are good? How about all the good emotions that we are allowed to feel by His design? How about all the pleasant events that occur in our lives as a result of His design?

You can't have the highs without the lows. Life would be bland with no contrast or dynamics. If we took all the lows away, all we would have is highs, although we wouldn't know they were highs because we would have never experienced the lows.

 

[Kylehnat]

And because of this He must be a cruel God? I see you focus a lot on the negative

Much of the Old Testament focuses on how God punishes people, who pretty much live in fear of His wrath. And if He does not have a mean streak, why did He do what He did to Job?

 

[Danoff]

You seem to think that when people do bad things, then it's God's fault because he could have changed, influenced, or prevented it from happening?

It is God's fault. God made everything, so God made pain and suffering as well right? I don't remember reading in the bible that he did it to offest the highs. It's my understanding that our suffering is Adam's fault - which is God's fault.

 

[Pako]

Much of the Old Testament focuses on how God punishes people, who pretty much live in fear of His wrath. And if He does not have a mean streak, why did He do what He did to Job?

My child has consequences for doing 'bad' things. I love my son very much, and because of that it is my responsibility to punish my son for his wrong doings so he can learn from those mistakes. I also reason with him and tell him upfront what I expect and what his consequences will be if he brakes the rules..., he is not blind sided by my parenting. We, as a race, are God's children and He our father. He gave the people of the old testament guidelines to follow and reveled the consequences before he punished them.

Do you know the whole story of Job?

 

[Danoff]

There is a difference between God designing you and you having children God also designed. Therefore, there is a fundmental difference in the responsibility for behavior of parents vs. God.

 

[McLarenMP4]

What constitutes blame here? Would I kill my child from breaking the rules (like God killed Adam)? Certainly not. I would be aware of my children's nature - as human beings. The natural propensity for curiosity - including the curiosity surrounding what they can get away with, and how bad the punishment really will be. I would expect my children to break the rules - which is why even though I'll tell them that guns are dangerous and show them how to be safe with them, I'll lock my guns in a safe at all times when I have kids.

You punish a child for breaking the rules because you know they can be taught to follow most rules... but you'll never expect them to be perfect.

The fact remains, God created man flawed - so how can he blame us for being flawed?

Edit: Just because you expect your children to break the rules doesn't mean you don't set them, or that you don't punish them, or that you even let them know that you expect it to happen. I was just pointing out that I wouldn't expect anything else from curious human children.

I thought you would have said "being that we are God's children, is it not a given that we too will break the rules?". Good point nonetheless.

 

[McLarenMP4]

You mean like a cult? You could call it Jimmy's Womanism... I can see it now...

JW "Drink the juice... Ah, come on... drink the juice... You can't drive in my Lexus until you drink the juice damn it"
Follower "Okay, but you gotta do it with me on three..."
JW "Okay, on three... one... two... three... Hey you didn't drink..."
Follower "Yeah, well you didn't either... Know what I don't want to ride in your cappy banged up Lexus anyhow."
JW "Well go then, and leave your inter-galactic space suit"
Ex-Follower "Here's you crappy bubble wrap. By the way JW, move out of your parent's basement. They hate you..." slams doors a leaves house.
JW, furious, slams back his plastic glass of juice.

Why would that have anything at all to do with a cult? Do you know who Freiderich Nietzsche was? Or what atheism is for that matter?

 

[Pako]

There is a difference between God designing you and you having children God also designed. Therefore, there is a fundamental difference in the responsibility for behavior of parents vs. God.

It was a metaphor, not a physical attribute. So yes, there is a physical difference between the two. This does not discount that the Bible often refers to God as Abba, Father, etc... These words are used to help us understand what God's role is in our lives.