Creation vs. Evolution

[Danoff]

It was a metaphor, not a physical attribute. So yes, there is a physical difference between the two. This does not discount that the Bible often refers to God as Abba, Father, etc... These words are used to help us understand what God's role is in our lives.

Just pointing out why the metaphor breaks down in this situation.

 

[Pako]

Just pointing out why the metaphor breaks down in this situation.

I guess I don't see how or what point of view your coming from. If we were made in God's own (physical, spiritual?) image, doesn't it make sense that He cares for his children as we would? I see it as a very valid metaphor.

 

[Danoff]

I guess I don't see how or what point of view your coming from. If we were made in God's own (physical, spiritual?) image, doesn't it make sense that He cares for his children as we would? I see it as a very valid metaphor.

We don't bear responsibility for our child's faults since we didn't design them actively (unless those faults are a result of our teaching). God bears responsibility for his children's faults since he designed them that way on purpose.

 

[Pako]

We don't bear responsibility for our child's faults since we didn't design them actively (unless those faults are a result of our teaching). God bears responsibility for his children's faults since he designed them that way on purpose.

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not the car manufacturers responsibility if I don't put on my seat belt and die in a wreck. It is my own responsibility to make the decision to put the lap belt on.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not the car manufacturers responsibility if I don't put on my seat belt and die in a wreck. It is my own responsibility to make the decision to put the lap belt on.

Yup, totally with you on the example - not seeing how it's parallel but hey 👍.

 

[Pako]

Yup, totally with you on the example - not seeing how it's parallel but hey 👍.

 

[Kylehnat]

Uh oh, the seatbelt thread is coming back!

 

[Casio]

I think what danoff is trying to explain is when YOU create a child, you don't really have choice of what it comes out like, or what it will do.

When God created Adam, He had a clean sheet to start from. He could of made him perfect in everyway. But instead, He gave Adam the ability to take the fruit, and He knew he would take it because He is all-knowing. Then punished him for an act that He knew was going to happen and could of designed him not to do. It's like giving a child a black texta and then punishing it when it draws all over the house.

Anyway, if He didn't want anybody taking His prized fruit, why didn't He just put some barbed wire around it?

 

[Fonce Diablo]

I think what danoff is trying to explain is when YOU create a child, you don't really have choice of what it comes out like, or what it will do.

When God created Adam, He had a clean sheet to start from. He could of made him perfect in everyway. But instead, He gave Adam the ability to take the fruit, and He knew he would take it because He is all-knowing. Then punished him for an act that He knew was going to happen and could of designed him not to do. It's like giving a child a black texta and then punishing it when it draws all over the house.

Anyway, if He didn't want anybody taking His prized fruit, why didn't He just put some barbed wire around it?

That God concertina wire would be awesome. I'd love to have some of it.

Oh yeah, concerning the whole creationism v. evolutionism thing...

Who cares how we got here? We're here now. What are we gonna do with it?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

There is a difference between God designing you and you having children God also designed. Therefore, there is a fundmental difference in the responsibility for behavior of parents vs. God.

The Bible says it's close. So close, in fact, that it tells you God said not to call any man "father" and to leave that name for him. FYI

Maybe God was bored, and decided he wanted to see what he could make, and what we'd do?

P.S. Does the Bible EVER say that God knows the future? or does it simply say he knows Satan aint gonna take him down? I know it says he is great and perfect, and all that, and that he knows all, but does "knowing all" mean the future too? cause I could know everything about sports in the world, but then, tommorrow, suddenly NOT know everything, because I don't know the future... understand?
Evander Holyfield told us he'd beat Mike Tyson again, but did that mean he knew everything that would ever happen? no.

God said he made us in his image, so therefore, doesnt that mean he has similar instincts as us? He makes bets with Satan, He says he's jealous, ( 1 of the 7 deadly sins) and even seems to over-punish people. could that mean he's much more like us than you imagine? could that mean, when he says he's perfect, it's no different than if you say you're perfect, with the exception that he can kill you, easily?

I really do believe 99.9% of people completley misunderstand some of the fundamentals in the Bible, simply because what they believe doesnt make sense, and contradicts itself. - Example: God is all-capable. Can He build a rock that he can't move? case closed there. - but it doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

KENT - where does the Bible say God created Satan?

 

[Danoff]

Maybe God was bored, and decided he wanted to see what he could make, and what we'd do?

God is all knowing and all powerful. He does not get bored, and he knows what he can make and what it would do.

 

[Swift]

P.S. Does the Bible EVER say that God knows the future? or does it simply say he knows Satan aint gonna take him down? I know it says he is great and perfect, and all that, and that he knows all, but does "knowing all" mean the future too? cause I could know everything about sports in the world, but then, tommorrow, suddenly NOT know everything, because I don't know the future... understand?
Evander Holyfield told us he'd beat Mike Tyson again, but did that mean he knew everything that would ever happen? no.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

God said he made us in his image, so therefore, doesnt that mean he has similar instincts as us? He makes bets with Satan, He says he's jealous, ( 1 of the 7 deadly sins) and even seems to over-punish people. could that mean he's much more like us than you imagine? could that mean, when he says he's perfect, it's no different than if you say you're perfect, with the exception that he can kill you, easily?

God doesn't make bets. To bet is to gamble with uncertainty. God KNEW that Job would make it through. Oh and the jealousy that you're talking about is a jealousy that a husband has for a wife. God wants to be the only God in your life. Just like you want to be the only husband in your wife's life.

KENT - where does the Bible say God created Satan?

Many places. But Lucifer literally means Son of the Morning. Here's the words of Jesus on it.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I really do believe 99.9% of people completley misunderstand some of the fundamentals in the Bible, simply because what they believe doesnt make sense, and contradicts itself. - Example: God is all-capable. Can He build a rock that he can't move? case closed there. - but it doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Yes he can, then he'll lift it. That's why he's ALL powerful. Not just powerful.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Why would that have anything at all to do with a cult? Do you know who Freiderich Nietzsche was? Or what atheism is for that matter?

Ever hear of Heaven's Gate? How about the Davidians and Whaco?... I was going on the fact that buddy said "What if you are your own God?" Many cults have a "devine" leader... Many faiths do as well... But few of them claim that the person they worship Is a God... not counting the Dahli Lama (don't know the correct spelling). And the Bubble wrap thing comes from "Dude Where's My Car" and the cult of Zoltan!

 

[Canadian Speed]

Another mistake many people make is the belief that failure or making a wrong fault doesn't make one perfect... That's not true at all... Adam was made perfect and the fact that he can fail is proof... Now what the real question is what was Adam made for? What was God trying to do with Adam? He was trying to make a free will, free to choose his own fait and his own path in life... No one said he was flawless. He was exactly what God wanted him to be at the time he made him... Over time he, as were the rest of us, tarnished. We lost that "new car" smell. But that doesn't mean we're not perfect in our own way. What I mean is, perfection can be defined by something that does exactly what it was made to do. Like a bomb. It blows up exactly what it was made to blow up the way it was suppoed to blow it up. Sure you can say "But after is blows up, it breaks". That's besides the point that it DID exactly what it was made to do. Perfectly...

 

[Danoff]

Another mistake many people make is the belief that failure or making a wrong fault doesn't make one perfect... That's not true at all... Adam was made perfect and the fact that he can fail is proof... Now what the real question is what was Adam made for? What was God trying to do with Adam? He was trying to make a free will, free to choose his own fait and his own path in life... No one said he was flawless. He was exactly what God wanted him to be at the time he made him... Over time he, as were the rest of us, tarnished. We lost that "new car" smell. But that doesn't mean we're not perfect in our own way. What I mean is, perfection can be defined by something that does exactly what it was made to do. Like a bomb. It blows up exactly what it was made to blow up the way it was suppoed to blow it up. Sure you can say "But after is blows up, it breaks". That's besides the point that it DID exactly what it was made to do. Perfectly...

So God intended for Adam to sin, which is the only possible conclusion one can come to - since God could have made Adam in such a way as to not sin, and since God knew before he made Adam that Adam would sin. So if God intended for Adam to sin, why is he punishing us for it? He made us like bombs (as you say), purposefully exploding in sin - designed for that purpose.

He made us sinners, so why does he punish us? It's his responsibility.

 

[Famine]

Example: God is all-capable. Can He build a rock that he can't move?

Yes he can, then he'll lift it.

The hell?


(apologies for misattributed quote)

 

[Swift]

So God intended for Adam to sin, which is the only possible conclusion one can come to - since God could have made Adam in such a way as to not sin, and since God knew before he made Adam that Adam would sin. So if God intended for Adam to sin, why is he punishing us for it? He made us like bombs (as you say), purposefully exploding in sin - designed for that purpose.

He made us sinners, so why does he punish us? It's his responsibility.

YOu do realise that Adam made a choice to sin. He's not a robot with a preprogrammed agenda.

you have say a few times that God made Adam to sin on purpose. I say God made Adam to love God through free will. He has millions of angels that love him just "because" they have to. But he wanted a companion with that would love him for himself. Not the most unbelievable concept.

 

[Swift]

The hell?

he asked it God can make a rock so big that he can't lift it. Yes, after he created it, he will lift it. You say that's a contradiction(maybe), I say that's the very definition of Almighty.

 

[Famine]

So... God can create a rock he can't lift and lift it?

That's not a contradiction - that's nonsense.

 

[Canadian Speed]

I didn't say that thing about the rock... Don't know who that was guys. Nothing major... just so you guys know... But please don't put words in my mouth...

 

[Swift]

So... God can create a rock he can't lift and lift it?

That's not a contradiction - that's nonsense.

If he couldn't, he wouldn't be all powerful then would he?

God goes far beyond what we as humans can comprehend. He's not in a mortal shell with physical or mental limitations. So, he can create something so heavy that he can't lift it. Then he can lift it. Or I could say, there is nothing that God can't do.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Any how... where did all this rock stuff come from anyhow? We were talking about creation, Adam and Eve and so on... I have no idea where that rock thing came from, and I can't even where it's from. My first post was a few jokes by Bill Hicks, and I've yet to find where Swift had quoted me on the rock thing... As I've never made it, and neither had he (Swift)... Way to throw a curve ball...

The topic was Adam being perfect... 1. He was, as he did what he was expected to do... Make his own choices. 2. We don't suffer because God made us to suffer. We suffer because the Devil is always there to torment us and challenge us into making wrong decisions. And we are perfect because basicaly we were made to choose between right and wrong. God intended to have us choose because forcing someone to love you is not true love. It's no fun if the girls just fall over with their legs open... Well at least not after the first few times...lol. So God gave us this ability to question, to choose what we wanted. And it makes him happy when we finally come around. It's like you and your parents. I'm sure there were times when you were a pain and not perfect. Puberty was this time for most of us. But once you graduate, get married, have kids ect. Your parents are even prowder for what you've gone though to get to where you are now...

 

[Swift]

This is where the rock stuff came from.

- Example: God is all-capable. Can He build a rock that he can't move? case closed there. - but it doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Thanks... 👍

 

[Danoff]

YOu do realise that Adam made a choice to sin. He's not a robot with a preprogrammed agenda.

you have say a few times that God made Adam to sin on purpose. I say God made Adam to love God through free will. He has millions of angels that love him just "because" they have to. But he wanted a companion with that would love him for himself. Not the most unbelievable concept.

But he knew Adam would sin anyway...

Ok, so you're saying God was lonely and wanted to be loved by somebody so he created someone - even though he knew that that someone was going to do bad stuff. God didn't care about all that, he was willing to live with Adam's failings as long as Adam loved him.

But one still has to wonder, why did God make Adam (and the rest of us) a sinner. If he KNEW Adam would sin, why didn't he do something about it?



Swift, you're approaching this as though free will means that God has no control over whether Adam sins. God had complete control over this situation. Do you think it was impossible for God to make Adam any better such that he would have free will but still choose not to sin? Maybe make him a little less emotional? Maybe make him a little more calculating so that instead of thinking "MAN I really want that knowledge from the Apple. I'm a bad*ss, screw God for telling me no" he would say "Hmmm, on the one hand, knowledge, on the other hand... death and pain for billions upon billions of future humans."


Just admit it Swift, Adam screwed up. God knew it, and could have done something about it but he didn't. He gave Adam pride, or greed, or whatever emotional failing it was that made him screw up.

 

[Swift]

But he knew Adam would sin anyway...

Ok, so you're saying God was lonely and wanted to be loved by somebody so he created someone - even though he knew that that someone was going to do bad stuff. God didn't care about all that, he was willing to live with Adam's failings as long as Adam loved him.

But one still has to wonder, why did God make Adam (and the rest of us) a sinner. If he KNEW Adam would sin, why didn't he do something about it?



Swift, you're approaching this as though free will means that God has no control over whether Adam sins. God had complete control over this situation. Do you think it was impossible for God to make Adam any better such that he would have free will but still choose not to sin? Maybe make him a little less emotional? Maybe make him a little more calculating so that instead of thinking "MAN I really want that knowledge from the Apple. I'm a bad*ss, screw God for telling me no" he would say "Hmmm, on the one hand, knowledge, on the other hand... death and pain for billions upon billions of future humans."


Just admit it Swift, Adam screwed up. God knew it, and could have done something about it but he didn't. He gave Adam pride, or greed, or whatever emotional failing it was that made him screw up.

My point is that he could have ADMITTED to the sin instead of passing the blame. Like many people do today.

God could NOT have done something about it or it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a given, like the angels. If he would've, then there wouldn't be any point to Adam in the first place.

BTW, we're are made in the image of God and the image of God is Jesus Christ. I don't read anywhere in the bible where it said Jesus had super sight or hearing. This is refering to some things said a while ago by Famine. Sorry for the random insertion there.

 

[Canadian Speed]

See the "girls falling over with legs open" thing. To answer the sinner part. Were it not for Satan. Adam wouldn't have sinned. God had nothing to do with it. It would be like blaming your dad for something your uncle did you to you... Like get you drunk. Yes Adam screwed up... See "Failure doesn't make you imperfect" thing... You'd still get grounded reguardless cause you should have known better... I'm trying to compare things to help you relate. After all, being grounded is kind of like your parents stealing a little bit of your life one week/month at a time... kind of...

 

[Danoff]

My point is that he could have ADMITTED to the sin instead of passing the blame. Like many people do today.

God gave Adam pride which caused him to pass blame. God could have not given Adam pride and still given him free will.

God could NOT have done something about it or it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a given, like the angels. If he would've, then there wouldn't be any point to Adam in the first place.

Wrong. God could have given Adam no emotions but still given him choice... and there still wasn't any point to Adam in the first place because God KNEW what Adam would do.

 

[Canadian Speed]

God gave Adam pride which caused him to pass blame. God could have not given Adam pride and still given him free will..

Adam got pride after eating the apple... Along with shame, guilt and so on... He lost his innocence...

Wrong. God could have given Adam no emotions but still given him choice... and there still wasn't any point to Adam in the first place because God KNEW what Adam would do..

Now maybe I'm wrong, but isn't love an emotion, as is addoration? If so, then what would have been the point of making him in the first place? The whole point was worship and love, so I don't feel your last point has any point. You may as well take away his will as well then... He'd basicaly be a robot any how without feelings and emotions.

 

[Swift]

Adam got pride after eating the apple... Along with shame, guilt and so on... He lost his innocence...



Now maybe I'm wrong, but isn't love an emotion, as is addoration? If so, then what would have been the point of making him in the first place? The whole point was worship and love, so I don't feel your last point has any point. You may as well take away his will as well then... He'd basicaly be a robot any how without feelings and emotions.

That was pretty good.