Creation vs. Evolution

[LeadSlead#2]

If he couldn't, he wouldn't be all powerful then would he?

God goes far beyond what we as humans can comprehend. He's not in a mortal shell with physical or mental limitations. So, he can create something so heavy that he can't lift it. Then he can lift it. Or I could say, there is nothing that God can't do.

Amen.
This is probabley the best way I've heard it put. Pure Genius. (not being sarcastic)

The problem is, people ( to many to list in here ) try to rationalize God with their own logic. They're so arrogant that they think they're capable of knowing and understanding all. - They're Idiots.

Question: If you clone a sheep, will the sheep be able to figure you out? how you can do what you can do? anything you're trying to figure out about God?
Question2: Anybody figure out where all these Atoms came from yet, since it can't be God?
Question3: What is an Atom?

 

[Casio]

Amen.
This is probabley the best way I've heard it put. Pure Genius. (not being sarcastic)

The problem is, people ( to many to list in here ) try to rationalize God with their own logic. They're so arrogant that they think they're capable of knowing and understanding all. - They're Idiots.

Question: If you clone a sheep, will the sheep be able to figure you out? how you can do what you can do? anything you're trying to figure out about God?
Question2: Anybody figure out where all these Atoms came from yet, since it can't be God?
Question3: What is an Atom?

So you're saying people who try to rationalise with logic, are idiots?

I don't believe anybody here has ever said that they 'know and understand' all (Except Famine). But how is that different then you saying that God is/does this or that, when you have no way of knowing or understanding it either.

 

[HondaRacer]

The problem is, people ( to many to list in here ) try to rationalize God with their own logic. They're so arrogant that they think they're capable of knowing and understanding all. - They're Idiots.

Accepting something blindly is what makes someone a true idiot. I see no problem with people who carefully study religion and make their own decision whether or not to believe, but those who accept it just because someone said so should take a step back and think for themselves. Think of this in terms of politics (since religion and politics are way too closely tied anyhow). If you research each candidate in an election carefully, your decision is valid because you know what you're choosing. However, if you vote based on what propaganda is fed to you from either side, chances are you will not make an intelligent decision.

In addition, claiming man's natural tendancy to question the world around him is idiocy makes no sense. Humans--from a religious or secular point of view--have no greater purpose than to understand and better the world around them. To have the ability to question is to have free will, which according to religion is what separates us from the animals.

Question3: What is an Atom?

No offense, but if you don't know the answer to that question I don't think you belong here.

 

[Fonce Diablo]

Perhaps the whole idea that we don't know how it all started is supposed to be that way.

Think about it. The idea of God is the world's second-biggest motivator (behind sex, of course). It starts and ends wars, it's killed millions and raised (as children) millions more.

The disagreement between religion and science is the fifth biggest motivator (behind food and politics, which are t-3rd). That gets the scientists all hot and bothered trying to prove or disprove something, and they accidentally discover the Internet or some such.

The point is, is that this question is answerless. Neither side is right or wrong and neither are BOTH sides right or wrong. Therefore, there is no answer. if there WERE, we'd know it by now, and then we'd have no motivation to do anything.

It's the mystery that drives the human race forward, not the answers themselves.

 

[HondaRacer]

It's the mystery that drives the human race forward, not the answers themselves.

Nailed it.

Discussion over.
Evolutionists: 0
Creationists: 0
Fonce Diablo: 1

Now watch the thread go on anyways...

 

[Fonce Diablo]

That's what I get for being an agnostic fundamentalist.

Hey, do I get an -ism now? Fonceism?

Where are my churches? My blind, unquestioning followers? XD

 

[Famine]

Amen.
This is probabley the best way I've heard it put. Pure Genius. (not being sarcastic)

The problem is, people ( to many to list in here ) try to rationalize God with their own logic. They're so arrogant that they think they're capable of knowing and understanding all. - They're Idiots.

If God can create a rock he cannot lift then he isn't omnipotent as there's something he can't do.
If God cannot create a rock he cannot lift then he isn't omnipotent as there's something he can't do.

If God CAN create a rock he can't lift and then can lift it, he has failed to create a rock he cannot lift by the very fact that he can lift it - his creation is NOT a rock he cannot lift.

It's interesting how you disregard logic so casually.

Everything about your life is derived from logic. Everything about modern society is derived from logic. All technology is derived from logic. You accept it, tacitly, or you'd never go out of your house - which was also built using materials and principles derived from logic.

But then, for one thing, you suddenly decide logic is inadequate - that in fact logic is illogical. You live your entire life by and through logical principles and then, because logic tears something you hold dear apart you decide that logic cannot be used in that case despite accepting it in every other case.


Then you refer to other people as idiots.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah... unless you count the inquesitions, the crusades, the discovery of the "new world", the assimilation of the Native Americans, the killing of the Aztecs and Mians... Other then that... Yeah, not too much killing... At least not from the Jews...

Notice the part where I said "recently".

He probably did know to some extent, but that's exactly what he wanted...

That's the only possible conclusion one can draw. That God knew that Adam would sin, and that's exactly what he wanted . What a sick, twisted God - punishing us for acting as he created us to.

It's interesting how you disregard logic so casually.

Everything about your life is derived from logic. Everything about modern society is derived from logic. All technology is derived from logic. You accept it, tacitly, or you'd never go out of your house - which was also built using materials and principles derived from logic.

But then, for one thing, you suddenly decide logic is inadequate - that in fact logic is illogical. You live your entire life by and through logical principles and then, because logic tears something you hold dear apart you decide that logic cannot be used in that case despite accepting it in every other case.


Then you refer to other people as idiots.

Check and mate.


I'd still like an answer to my question from someone. Why was Adam tempted by Eve? Did he love her? Was it pride, or greed? What was it exactly?

 

[a6m5]

Assuming "years" to be literal years and not metaphorical, like the "days" of Creation...

Good point. It was probably closer to 900,000 years.

 

[Swift]

To Famine, If God could be explained by pure logic, then he wouldn't be God. God isn't bound by the same rules that we are. If he was, he couldn't be God.

Danoff: Why was Adam tempted by Eve? Everyone is tempted at one time or another, including Jesus. Adam fell to that temptation because he got his eyes off of God and on himself and his wife.

And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. The devils same three tricks from the begining of mankind. So that's why Adam sinned.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff: Why was Adam tempted by Eve? Everyone is tempted at one time or another, including Jesus. Adam fell to that temptation because he got his eyes off of God and on himself and his wife.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. The devils same three tricks from the begining of mankind. So that's why Adam sinned.

Why did Adam possess lust or pride?

 

[Swift]

Why did Adam possess lust or pride?

Because they can be good as well as bad. We all know that it's important to be proud of yourself and your family. But you can go overboard. Lust on the other hand is more of a symptom of pride in my opinion. Almost everytime you see a lustful(sinful) situation, pride is right there with it.

Adam was proud of the job he did tending the garden and naming all the animals. That's fine, but again, he got he's eyes off of God and on himself.

 

[Danoff]

Because they can be good as well as bad. We all know that it's important to be proud of yourself and your family. But you can go overboard. Lust on the other hand is more of a symptom of pride in my opinion. Almost everytime you see a lustful(sinful) situation, pride is right there with it.

Adam was proud of the job he did tending the garden and naming all the animals. That's fine, but again, he got he's eyes off of God and on himself.

I thought pride was a sin. Aren't we supposed to be humble submissive servants of our master?

How and why did Adam get pride?

 

[Swift]

I thought pride was a sin. Aren't we supposed to be humble submissive servants of our master?

How and why did Adam get pride?

Pride is part of flesh. and is NOT always a bad thing. Just like food. Vegetables are good for you. But too much of anyone vegetable can be quite bad.

God is my master AND my friend. Not like a slave/master relationship. But a father/son relationship where I get to say something every now and then. Granted, I'm wrong 99% of the time. But the point is I get to say my part and he listens. Verses a master that would just say "Shutup Stupid!"

 

[Touring Mars]

Because they can be good as well as bad. We all know that it's important to be proud of yourself and your family. But you can go overboard. Lust on the other hand is more of a symptom of pride in my opinion. Almost everytime you see a lustful(sinful) situation, pride is right there with it. .

I thought pride was a sin. Aren't we supposed to be humble submissive servants of our master?

But pride is a sin... if the Bible is to be taken literally... but as a typical human quality, however, with no reference to sin or otherwise, pride can be useful and good, aswell as bad and unhelpful... only when we place our own moral judgement on someone else's pride do we judge that it is a sin or not... (since apparently even the Bible is unable to explicit about it either way...)

Also, I wouldn't say that lust and pride go together at all - infact, most times I've considered myself to be lusting after something (or more likely someone ) I haven't been proud of it at all....

 

[Danoff]

Pride is part of flesh. and is NOT always a bad thing. Just like food. Vegetables are good for you. But too much of anyone vegetable can be quite bad.

Why is pride necessarily part of flesh? God can do anything right? Couldn't he create Adam without pride? Surely he could have. I don't see why pride or lust are inherently necessary for any of God's creations.

 

[Swift]

Also, I wouldn't say that lust and pride go together at all - infact, most times I've considered myself to be lusting after something (or more likely someone ) I haven't been proud of it at all....

But you wanted her for YOURSELF, right?

Why is pride necessarily part of flesh? God can do anything right? Couldn't he create Adam without pride? Surely he could have. I don't see why pride or lust are inherently necessary for any of God's creations.

Pride, the sinful version, comes from taking our eyes off of God and putting them on ourselves.

 

[Danoff]

Pride, the sinful version, comes from taking our eyes off of God and putting them on ourselves.

Can you explain that a little better? If we focus on ourselves, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're prideful or lustful. Perhaps we're self-loathing. Perhaps we're perfectionists - focusing constantly on perfecting our worship of our master.

Trying to be a servant of the one almighty lord requires constant focus on one's own actions, always analyzing yourself and asking if that's what God would want you to do.

Is this the reason Adam had pride Swift? So that he could pull the above off?

 

[Famine]

To Famine, If God could be explained by pure logic, then he wouldn't be God. God isn't bound by the same rules that we are. If he was, he couldn't be God.

Everything about your life is derived from logic. Everything about modern society is derived from logic. All technology is derived from logic. You accept it, tacitly, or you'd never go out of your house - which was also built using materials and principles derived from logic.

But then, for one thing, you suddenly decide logic is inadequate - that in fact logic is illogical. You live your entire life by and through logical principles and then, because logic tears something you hold dear apart you decide that logic cannot be used in that case despite accepting it in every other case.

I can only think that this is some blind spot.

Imagine if you applied the same "reasoning" to anything else. Anything at all.

You use logic in every aspect of your life apart from one, which logic would destroy. You choose not to use it because you do not wish to imagine that you believe in something which isn't real - then cite it as a special case which defies logic.

 

[Swift]

I can only think that this is some blind spot.

Imagine if you applied the same "reasoning" to anything else. Anything at all.

You use logic in every aspect of your life apart from one, which logic would destroy. You choose not to use it because you do not wish to imagine that you believe in something which isn't real - then cite it as a special case which defies logic.

Actually, no. I don't use logic for every aspect of my life. When I only have a certain amount of money and it comes time for me to tithe(give 10th to the Lord) I will tithe before I pay bills. I will push a child(that I don't know) out of the way of danger even if it means I get hurt or killed.

Besides, logically we shouldn't even exist. For the sheer fact that the creationist can't appeal to the logical side of evolutionist and evolutionist can't answer the question "where did nature that produced the big bang come from?" without saying, "we have a theory...." So, it's totally subjective at the point. There is NO conclusive scientific evidence either way. Or at least none that I can think of.

You say I use logic for every part of my being. Well, in my mind, my very existance, as much as I enjoy it, simply isn't logical.

 

[Famine]

Actually, no. I don't use logic for every aspect of my life. When I only have a certain amount of money and it comes time for me to tithe(give 10th to the Lord) I will tithe before I pay bills. I will push a child(that I don't know) out of the way of danger even if it means I get hurt or killed.

The first is an example of YOUR logic (rather than actual logic) in action. The second is an example of human logic (rather than actual logic) in action.

You use logic to make every decision, otherwise no decision would be made (which is also a logical decision...). Your house uses logic to stay up. Your car uses logic to move. Your body uses logic to keep itself going. Everything about you is logical - even your devotion to someone who lives in the sky. But logic cannot corroborate your impression of who this sky-man is and so you decide that, despite covering everything else, logic doesn't work because it doesn't fit with what you think and sky-man becomes "a special case" as a result.


It's just... wierd how you find this acceptable.

 

[Small_Fryz]

also Swift if anything was to happen against you from a criminal or something. You would rely on logic for that criminal to be caught, and logic to find evidence etc etc. If there was no logic he would get away.

It seems to me like you can just pick and choose when logic should and shouldnt apply.

 

[Danoff]

If I can speak for swift for just a moment (swift correct me if I'm wrong):

He's saying that he trusts his emotions. Swift, unlike the agnostics and atheists among us, believes that his emotions have some sort of useful information in them. He thinks that when he has a feeling, it means something other than that his body is having a pre-programmed natural response to stimulus.

If swift used this mentality at the poker table, he'd be the guy that "went with his gut". He'd get an emotional read on the cards and feel that the ace was coming out next. He'd be wrong, of course, because cards are very logical - as is the rest of the world.

When swift says he'd put himself in danger to save a stranger he's talking about going with his gut. He donates money to his church because it fullfills and emotional desire implanted in him by years of religious guilt that he may not even be aware of.


Swift believes that the information contained in his emotions comes from God, that God is giving him signals that he feels . I could try to prove it to him by having him try to pick a card or a course of action based on emotion, and show him that he's only statistically as accurate as random chance. But Swift decided long ago that one's emotions contain critical information and there is little chance that any of us will convince him otherwise.

Swift,

For me, my emotions are what make me human (as they are with you). But I don't interpret them. I don't attempt to extract anything from them other than pleasure. I recognize instinctual responses is my own behavior and try to enjoy the ride, since to fight that is to fight what little enjoyment we're able to extract from the world.

Emotions are the spice of life for me, but not the substance.

(Now, did I miss the mark?)

 

[Small_Fryz]

Only one exception to that fact Danoff, it has been known that Twins can "sense" when another is in danger. And many parents can also "sense" when something is not right with their children.

 

[Danoff]

Only one exception to that fact Danoff, it has been known that Twins can "sense" when another is in danger.

uh huh.. And there are also regular alien abductions.

And many parents can also "sense" when something is not right with their children.

You mean in some kind of extra-sensory way beyond just observing when their children get quiet or don't act normal? Because my parents are definitely missing this 6th sense... and I've never seen it work.

A lot of this can be chalked up to the fact that people look for signals in randomness. When something happens they go "I knew it!", even though they "knew" it a million times before when nothing happened, they just forget about those times.

Ever get a bad feeling about something and it turns out to be nothing?

People like magic in their world, it gives them a sense that anything can happen, which, if one is optimistic, can improve one's outlook.

 

[Small_Fryz]

I see what you mean now.

But i do think that some parents do, or maybe they just know what signs to look for better than other parents. Especially with my history my parents are very good at knowing when something isnt right with me.

 

[niky]

Actually, the ability to sense a child or a sibling in danger often has much to do with unconscious processing of available information rather than actual (or provable ESP).

ESP between twins has never been proven satisfactorily in a lab. It's possible that as one twin knows how the other thinks and acts, and has a reasonably good idea of what they are doing and where they are... they can sometimes subconsciously infer what kind of situation they're in. A lot of those uneasy feelings turn out to be false. Sometimes, they're accurate.

I was saved by subconscious processing once. I was asleep and had something... bad. I'd had a sore throat for weeks, and in my dream, I was holding the baby and she stopped breathing... then I stopped breathing... I couldn't move, and I was trying to give her to my wife, who also seemed paralyzed. I was near a state of panic when my wife woke me up.

I almost asphyxiated in my sleep, but she woke me up. Even though she couldn't explain how or why, she said she thought I was having trouble breathing (which was true).

Good old subconscious. Her brain took 1. Her knowledge that I had a tightened throat and a clogged nose, and 2. Her not hearing me breathe for a minute or two, and it sent a signal up to her head that rang alarm bells.

People can sometimes sense, unconsciously, that something is wrong or is going to happen to their loved ones... but thankfully, 90% of the time, they're wrong. And thankfully, in the case of my wife, that 10% of the time they're right, they still act on it.

 

[a6m5]

I think you guys are reading into this religious belief thing way too much, but I must say, great example by danoff on the deck of cards thing. 👍 He's been on a roll lately!

 

[LeadSlead#2]

anybody know what logic is in here? Logic is simply different means of deductive reasoning, therefore, a deck of cards, is not really logical, it is random, which, is logical, but the cards themselves are not logical.

Famine, no, people do not always use logic, not before everything they do, they may think in their logic, but they don't always go with it, do they?
Tell me this, do you use Logic for Love? can logic explain a Father's attachment to a son? not really, all he did was have fun with a girl, now she shows him a baby, why is it so different from other babies? why is he instantly attatched?
Can Logic explain why people knowingly die for other people? it's instinct for many, but that doesnt mean it's logical.

Oh and one more thing: If you're going to call somebody anything other than rational for throwing logic out the window when it comes to their existance, be sure Logic has an answer first. - It doesnt, FYI.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Accepting something blindly is what makes someone a true idiot. I see no problem with people who carefully study religion and make their own decision whether or not to believe, but those who accept it just because someone said so should take a step back and think for themselves. Think of this in terms of politics (since religion and politics are way too closely tied anyhow). If you research each candidate in an election carefully, your decision is valid because you know what you're choosing. However, if you vote based on what propaganda is fed to you from either side, chances are you will not make an intelligent decision.

Yeah, let's mix religion with politics more....?????
Are you saying I havent read the Bible? or are you talking about somebody else, I sure hope so.
Are you saying I don't know religion's stance here? I sure hope not, otherwise, you're assuming a hell of a lot, which, although could be logical, is stupid. (see how sometimes logic isnt the all-determining thinking source of the world?)

In addition, claiming man's natural tendancy to question the world around him is idiocy makes no sense. Humans--from a religious or secular point of view--have no greater purpose than to understand and better the world around them. To have the ability to question is to have free will, which according to religion is what separates us from the animals.

Never said it was stupid to question where we come from, did I? quote it, or ignore it, but don't put words in my mouth, your wasting space, and people's time reading crap that never happened, and now they have to read me say you're putting words in my mouth.

No offense, but if you don't know the answer to that question I don't think you belong here.

Anybody who wants to answer, will then get to understand why an atom itself is illogical, therefore, sending some peoples worlds into a headspin.


P.S. Logic, will only take you as far as your knowledge, so, given the purest logic in the world, if you're missing the crucial factor, you could easily find a logical, but false conclusion.