Creation vs. Evolution

[Kylehnat]

Oh and one more thing: If you're going to call somebody anything other than rational for throwing logic out the window when it comes to their existance, be sure Logic has an answer first. - It doesnt, FYI.

How Is this in any way, shape, or form different than you calling us idiots?

Anybody who wants to answer, will then get to understand why an atom itself is illogical, therefore, sending some peoples worlds into a headspin.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!!

I am honestly confused beyond belief by your last two posts.

 

[Casio]

Yeah, let's mix religion with politics more....?????
Are you saying I havent read the Bible? or are you talking about somebody else, I sure hope so.

Question: Did you read the bible before or after you took up Christianity?

Anybody who wants to answer, will then get to understand why an atom itself is illogical, therefore, sending some peoples worlds into a headspin.

So an Atom is illogical? Please Explain. Is it any more illogical then some invisible entity created the earth in a few days, when it is FACT that the earth was created over billions of years.

Any more illogical, then believing in a God that is all loving and forgiving. But if you don't believe in him you get ****ed up the ass?

PS: Check out thisIt was in one of the Ad-Boxes at the bottom of this page. I only have a basic knowledge of physics. But sounds like a steaming load to me. Famine?

 

[ledhed]

It seems there' s some really good chit being smoked before some of this stuff is posted .

 

[Danoff]

anybody know what logic is in here? Logic is simply different means of deductive reasoning, therefore, a deck of cards, is not really logical, it is random, which, is logical, but the cards themselves are not logical.

Uh... what?

Logic is NOT different means of deductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning is logically flawed reasoning - meaning it isn't logic. So your only example of logic isn't logically sound, leaving me thinking you don't understand logic at all.

I started a thread on logic here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44785&highlight=logic

Read it and learn a thing or two. Cards are very logical, just because they're randomized doesn't mean they aren't logical. Using set theory you can deduce information about the elements left in a set if you know what elements the set encompasses and which elements have been removed. It's arithmatic, cards are a very simple use of logic - it gets much more complicated.

Famine, no, people do not always use logic, not before everything they do, they may think in their logic, but they don't always go with it, do they?
Tell me this, do you use Logic for Love? can logic explain a Father's attachment to a son? not really, all he did was have fun with a girl, now she shows him a baby, why is it so different from other babies? why is he instantly attatched?
Can Logic explain why people knowingly die for other people? it's instinct for many, but that doesnt mean it's logical.

Oh and one more thing: If you're going to call somebody anything other than rational for throwing logic out the window when it comes to their existance, be sure Logic has an answer first. - It doesnt, FYI.

I addressed this earlier, or did you just want to hear Famines personal response.

He's saying that he trusts his emotions. Swift, unlike the agnostics and atheists among us, believes that his emotions have some sort of useful information in them. He thinks that when he has a feeling, it means something other than that his body is having a pre-programmed natural response to stimulus.

 

[Swift]

If I can speak for swift for just a moment (swift correct me if I'm wrong):

Ok,

He's saying that he trusts his emotions. Swift, unlike the agnostics and atheists among us, believes that his emotions have some sort of useful information in them. He thinks that when he has a feeling, it means something other than that his body is having a pre-programmed natural response to stimulus.

Uh, that's partially true. But I do undertand that every single emotion or feeling is not of a spiritual nature.

If swift used this mentality at the poker table, he'd be the guy that "went with his gut". He'd get an emotional read on the cards and feel that the ace was coming out next. He'd be wrong, of course, because cards are very logical - as is the rest of the world.

Poker...well I guess I would be that guy. But still have the poker face

When swift says he'd put himself in danger to save a stranger he's talking about going with his gut. He donates money to his church because it fullfills and emotional desire implanted in him by years of religious guilt that he may not even be aware of.

Uh, no. It's not a guilt thing. It's a commandmant thing. Not to mention that I gave money to charities and other organizations before I was saved 5 years ago. So it's been part of my nature.

Swift believes that the information contained in his emotions comes from God, that God is giving him signals that he feels . I could try to prove it to him by having him try to pick a card or a course of action based on emotion, and show him that he's only statistically as accurate as random chance. But Swift decided long ago that one's emotions contain critical information and there is little chance that any of us will convince him otherwise.

Uh, refer to my earlier comment about emotions.

Swift,

For me, my emotions are what make me human (as they are with you). But I don't interpret them. I don't attempt to extract anything from them other than pleasure. I recognize instinctual responses is my own behavior and try to enjoy the ride, since to fight that is to fight what little enjoyment we're able to extract from the world.

Emotions are the spice of life for me, but not the substance.

(Now, did I miss the mark?)

Hmmm...

First, I get a LOT of enjoyment from living

Second, to not try to intrepret your feelings is not always smart. Especially when in relationships.

Third, it's a fine line that is to be walked between flesh and the spirit. But there is one rule that always holds true. If it's about lifting up God and others positively, it's from God. If not, it's from the flesh or an unclean spirit(demon)

 

[Touring Mars]

PS: Check out this

There is not one shred of scientific evidence that invalidates the claims found in these verses (Genesis) which state God created life and the universe.

Can God be scientifically proven? No, it would be nice but his existence cannot be proven scientifically. The reason is God is supernatural; he exists outside the natural, scientific world.

Is it surprising that there is no scientific evidence that invalidates the claims in Genesis then...?

The fact is, this site is full of what I'd call 'the reasoning of incredulity'... "it can't be this way", "that can't be right", "I don't understand how..." etc., but yet offers no other explanations other than "it's supernatural.... we can't and never will understand it". This attitude greatly annoys me, not least because he wouldn't be typing any of his garb on his nice new laptop if there wasn't a non-supernatural way to explain how to harness materials and electricity to build a computer... the fact is, by attempting to discredit all that science has achieved in one fell swoop, he is ignoring the reality of the world that even he lives in. In addition, he doesn't offer anything in return in terms of explanation other than pure hand-waving...

There is not even one generally accepted scientific theory on the origin of matter and energy.

But there are plenty of theories, and a supernatural God is just one of them.

There is not even one generally accepted scientific theory on the origin of life.

Again, there are plenty of theories, but this is a man with no respect for the diligence and patience required to formulate a thoroughly grounded scientific opinion. Ask the question "Why do apples fall down from trees and not up?" 500 years ago, there would be plenty of theories, but none were 'generally accepted' until Newton came along. Similarly, Darwin was just another in a long line of scientists and philosophers who dared to explain the true origins of life. But the origins of life is as complex a scientific issue as one can image, hence why anyone, scientist or otherwise, should not be impatient and claim that they know one way or the other. The fact is, there are plenty of theories, and plenty of research is going on every day in order to establish the truth. By ignoring all of it and saying it's all crap and God did it, is to answer precisely nothing.

If matter and energy cannot be created, how did they originate?

What does he say about it? Not much, other than "The fact that matter and energy cannot be created is consistent with the claim in Genesis which says God rested from his work and all he created." Gee, thanks. That's really cleared that up. What does he not understand about the notion that we don't know yet...? (although have made great advances in our understanding over the last century)

Also, he singularly fails to answer the point, 'once matter is present, how do explain how it behaves and exists in the form that we see today?' You have two options. Either endeavour to study the laws of physics, chemistry and quantum mechanics, and observe what is going on, or ignore all that and say that it is all just God working in his mysterious way. He also contests "Nobody has ever observed a molecular cloud collapse or any planet form" - well, that's a no-brainer. Unless a human being can live for a billion years, and do nothing but watch one small part of the sky, he never will 'observe' a planet form. But what you can do instead is to make detailed observations of the universe and take a look at what is actually happening all around us - intermediate forms of all types exist, from primitive gaseous nebulae where stars (and planets) are constantly forming, to ancient dead stars, supernovae and black holes. And they are all easily observable. All you have to do is put 2 and 2 together from what we can observe to build up a better understanding of the true nature of the universe. Once again, the alternative is to close our eyes (and our minds) to any explanation other than God's fair hand.

Nobody has ever observed the evolution of any genome.

They have. Once again, by misrepresenting the term evolution, he manages to cast doubt on a real phenomenon, without paying any attention to any actual evidence to the contrary. This article discusses experiments on bacteria that shows evolution in action. There is screes of evidence for evolution (not least that linked to in my signature, and as discussed previously in this thread ) in all of its forms.

All scientific observations confirm everything continues to move towards a greater state of decay and disorder.

Again, a misleading statement. Creationists have argued (highly unsuccessfully) that 'evolution' violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. (Ironic how creationists try to fall back on the very scientific laws they reject with alacrity when it suits them...) It does not. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that the entropy (or disorder) of a closed system always increases (leading to more disorder/less order) in the system overall. This is true. But it is highly misleading when used in the wrong context. Creationists argue that this means that nothing more complex can form (like a living human being) from more simple ancestors, because it violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Unfortunately, they do not take into consideration the whole system, and the total energy input and output of the system.

A more simple example is that of hurricanes. Hurricanes are highly ordered structures that arise from a less ordered state. Arguing that 'that can't happen' is a bit pointless when it clearly does happen. The point is, without energy input, you would not get hurrricanes. But hurricanes are not entirely closed systems - they are fed from thermal energy from the sea, and die out once they hit the land (i.e. when that energy source is removed). There are many other examples, like how the amyloid fibrils responsible for Alzheimer's Disease (incredibly highly ordered/structured protein filaments) spontaneously arise from otherwise random peptides (the amyloid beta peptide)... once again, energy input into the system, and other external factors, influence how this process is governed. Also, how does a fertilised egg become a fully grown human being? You cannot simply state "it can't", or "the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics must be wrong", because it clearly does happen, and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does still apply. It is just that their understanding of the issues and the science involved is sadly lacking.

This last case is just one example of how some (if not all) of the statements on that site are flawed. Unfortunately, he uses the same 'incredulity' and the same basic lack of understanding, and more significantly, the same dependence on a complete acceptance of religious text over scientific reason, to justify his comments. Unfortunately, if taken to task on many of these issues, I reckon he might have a hard time.

It is interesting how atheists reject any notion of the supernatural because of what they perceive to be a lack of evidence when they could use that same objectivity to reject their naturalistic world view.

It's called living in the real world, mate. If the supernatural realm is beyond us and forever outwith our understanding, then what's the point trying to understand it? The fact is the natural world is within our understanding, and that is how we should be living our lives, rather than wasting our time and effort trying to accomodate people who reject everything about the real world...

 

[Swift]

Similarly, Darwin was just another in a long line of scientists and philosophers who dared to explain the true origins of life.

Change that to possible origins of life and I'll agree.

It's called living in the real world, mate. If the supernatural realm is beyond us and forever outwith our understanding, then what's the point trying to understand it? The fact is the natural world is within our understanding, and that is how we should be living our lives, rather than wasting our time and effort trying to accomodate people who reject everything about the real world...

Well, in the real world, we have the concept of infinity, but we really can't grasp it. Life in general is beyond our understanding. But we try our best to understand it. The general course of life is FAR beyond any humans understanding, but we have an entire industry of self help seminars, books and even dare I say it...churches setup to guide people through what they can't understand. Amazing huh?

 

[Danoff]

Well, in the real world, we have the concept of infinity, but we really can't grasp it.

Prove that.

Life in general is beyond our understanding.

Current or potential? Either way, support this claim.

The general course of life is FAR beyond any humans understanding

What does this mean? The general course of life? Prove that it is beyond any human's understanding. Do you mean humanity is incapable of understanding the course of life? If so, I disagree and think you need to substantiate this claim.

 

[Swift]

Prove that.

Where does infinity begin? If you can answer that then infinity doesn't exist.

What does this mean? The general course of life? Prove that it is beyond any human's understanding. Do you mean humanity is incapable of understanding the course of life? If so, I disagree and think you need to substantiate this claim.

What I mean is why do certain things happen to ceratin people? Why do dictators remain in power while the average joe is made to suffer. Why do drug dealers prosper while a single mother has to struggle just to keep the rent paid. I'm talking about life in general. Why do things happen the way they happen? Nobody knows and no human is in direct control of it.

 

[Danoff]

Where does infinity begin? If you can answer that then infinity doesn't exist.

I don't think that proves much of anything Swift. "Infinity" can have a beginning too. Like for example if I define a variable Dan's_time to be all time the occurs after January 1, 2000 12:00 GMT. That is an infinte quantity that has a clear start time.

What I mean is why do certain things happen to ceratin people? Why do dictators remain in power while the average joe is made to suffer. Why do drug dealers prosper while a single mother has to struggle just to keep the rent paid. I'm talking about life in general. Why do things happen the way they happen? Nobody knows and no human is in direct control of it.

You're right that nobody (human or supernatural) is in direct control of it. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be understood. Take any random dictator on the globe and someone has probably written a book describing exactly why he remains in power.

 

[Swift]

I don't think that proves much of anything Swift. "Infinity" can have a beginning too. Like for example if I define a variable Dan's_time to be all time the occurs after January 1, 2000 12:00 GMT. That is an infinte quantity that has a clear start time.

Ok, so you have a beginning for it but no end. Being of course the definition of infinity. But do you really think that we as humans can comprehend something so far outside of or our own experience?

You're right that nobody (human or supernatural) is in direct control of it. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be understood. Take any random dictator on the globe and someone has probably written a book describing exactly why he remains in power.

Yes, there are reasons why he remains in power. But look at the big picture that I was talking about. Things happen for apparently no reason, both good and bad. But there is no unified explaination for it in the scientific world.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, so you have a beginning for it but no end. Being of course the definition of infinity. But do you really think that we as humans can comprehend something so far outside of or our own experience?

Yes, and it isn't outside of our experience.

Yes, there are reasons why he remains in power. But look at the big picture that I was talking about. Things happen for apparently no reason, both good and bad. But there is no unified explaination for it in the scientific world.

What exactly doesn't have a scientific explanation? Give me an example (specific names and dates) of something that happened for no reason at all.

 

[Swift]

Yes, and it isn't outside of our experience.

How is infinity not oustide of a mortal persons exprience?

What exactly doesn't have a scientific explanation? Give me an example (specific names and dates) of something that happened for no reason at all.

You're thinking way to specific here. Why are people born with traits for certain genetic diseases? What I'm talking about is the general course of events in a person's life that we don't have direct control over. Certainly, you can explain why an accident happend, for instance. But what we can't explain is why that person is in that accident at that time and for what reason.

 

[Danoff]

How is infinity not oustide of a mortal persons exprience?

Ever try to count to the end of the numberline? Or backward to the negative end? Ever look up at the stars at night? Ever tried to calculate the digits of Pi? Or seen the results of someone who has tried? Ever look into two mirros that face each other? Think about what you have experienced in your life, you experience infinity quite often, and some things that are not infinte seem infinite to you - which I would count as an experience of infinity as well.

That's not even to mention the G35 coupe.

You're thinking way to specific here. Why are people born with traits for certain genetic diseases? What I'm talking about is the general course of events in a person's life that we don't have direct control over. Certainly, you can explain why an accident happend, for instance. But what we can't explain is why that person is in that accident at that time and for what reason.

Give me a name and a date and I'll tell you exactly why the accident happened at that time to that person and for what reason. It may not be much of a meaningful reason. The reason will be something like "You left your house at 10:21:14.12351 GMT which puts you at that position at exactly that time when Joe shmoe swerved to avoid such-and-such. It may not have the "meaning" you're looking for. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a reason. Perhaps science can't ascribe a "meaning" to an event like an accident on the road, but did you ever stop to think that it might not have one?

 

[a6m5]

Great post, Chris. 👍 I think I'm getting smarter just reading your post. Bit dissapointed that you must be a member to read the bacteria article.

That's not even to mention the G35 coupe.

I did not see that one coming.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Using set theory you can deduce information about the elements left in a set if you know what elements the set encompasses and which elements have been removed. It's arithmatic, cards are a very simple use of logic - it gets much more complicated.

The hell? and how is this supposed to prove Logic is NOT deductive reasoning?
Logic: The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!!

I am honestly confused beyond belief by your last two posts.

Well, maybe if somebody says exactly what an Atom is, then you'll find out, until then, you'll be shaking your head in wonder, wandering the earth in ignorance - (see dictionary definition before you take as a personal insult)

 

[Kylehnat]

Well, maybe if somebody says exactly what an Atom is, then you'll find out, until then, you'll be shaking your head in wonder, wandering the earth in ignorance - (see dictionary definition before you take as a personal insult)

You want to see ignorance? Look in the mirror.

From Merriam Webster:
ignorance (noun):
1.a : destitute of knowledge or education.
1.b: lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

If you had bothered to do your homework, you would know that I am a chemical engineering major. I know what an atom is. I know how it behaves, and I know how to manipulate it. I know how to make medicine with it, and I know how to make nuclear weapons with it.

There are subjects in which I am ignorant. This is not one of them. When confronted with a topic I know little about, I do some research and learn more about it before I start spouting off.

You, on the other hand, appear to be wandering the earth with your fingers in your ears and your eyes shut, opening up only to those who agree with you. If everyone were this dismissive of what can be learned from our world, we'd still be sitting in caves, wondering if our shadow was going to murder us in our sleep.

 

[Fonce Diablo]

What is an atom?

Are you serious? Go find the nearest electron microscope and see for yourself.

Protons, neutrons, and electrons. This is basic chemistry, here.

What is an atom...and you're calling US ignorant?

 

[Danoff]

The hell? and how is this supposed to prove Logic is NOT deductive reasoning?
Logic: The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

God D*** it ****!!

You are correct. I got my deductive and inductive reversed.

 

[a6m5]

God D*** it ****!!

You are correct. I got my deductive and inductive reversed.

Props to LS#2. I don't think I've ever seen danoff get this frustrated.

 

[Danoff]

Props to LS#2. I don't think I've ever seen danoff get this frustrated.

Yea. I hate getting stuff like that wrong. I thought I remembered the inductive and deductive reasoning correctly from back in college and it turns out I'd flipped them. Just irritates me when stuff like that happens.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Forgive me if I am asking a quesiton which has already been answered in here, but I don't really have time to sift through the 100+ pages that have been created since I left this thread. Something has been bothering me for a while now...

What was there before the Big Bang? Every time I try to wrap my head around this, I can only logically arrive at the conclusion that there must be other worlds that exist outside our own universe.

Oops, nosebleed.

 

[Famine]

That's really two questions.

Firstly, since the Big Bang was the origin of space it was also the origin of time - the space-time continuum. So "before" the Big Bang is kind of moot.

However, current theory has it that the universe is one part of 11 dimensional space - called "brane theory" - and the Big Bang was the result of a brane-brane interaction therein.

 

[Small_Fryz]

The only conclusion that I can come to terms with is maybe it always has been and always will be? Some sort of cycle?


And props to Danoff for admiting his mistake, unlike some others.

 

[Anderton Prime]

It's virtually impossible for my human mind to comprehend something like the concept of nothing. There just had to be something before the universe, my brain keeps telling me...

 

[Canadian Speed]

There is also a theory about anti matter... Which basicaly explains how something can come from nothing... Way beyond anything I can explain, but others have... I'll see if I can come up with a link that better explains this theory...

Here we go... Good old Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-matter

 

[Anderton Prime]

Thanks for the link, but I got two sentences into that explanation and I started to black out. Waaaaay over my head. OAC Chemistry only takes you so far!

 

[Kylehnat]

It doesn't make sense to you?! All it says is that somewhere out there, there is an anti-Anderton Prime. Should you two ever meet, you will both disappear from the universe completely. How hard is that to understand?

 

[Keef]

Personally, I believe in the evolution theory. It makes more sense to me; I'm a scientific-type person. There are many unanswered questions that come with this theory, but, for me, there are more unanswered questions brought on by the intelligent design theory.
It seems as though there is more hard evidence supporting Darwin's Theory of Evolution, because we can look at fossils, plant and animal, from different time periods and see how the characteristics have improved the way they live over time. The only evidence, sorry if I miss something, for the Intelligent Design theory is the written stuff--the Bible, Kuran, etc. Do you really think it's possible to fit two of every species on Earth into one boat?
It's very hard to imagine something being truly infinite, I know, I question my physics teacher all the time about stuff. I don't think the universe is a measurable volume. It is something, but it is nothing. The something is just place where all the tangible stuff is. We had to call it something. I don't think the universe expands or contracts, but all the stuff in it does. Here's how it works in my head: It starts with a big bang, the matter explodes outward at tremendously high speeds, counteracting the gravity trying to pull it back together. Eventually, hundreds of billions of years later, gravity has slowed the expansion to a stop, the matter starts moving towards, not the center of the "universe", but the center of gravity in the universe (where most of the matter is). It speeds toward that point, collides together, sort of like a star dieing. It compresses so tightly because of the tremendous gravity and the velocity of the moving matter that fusion begins (like a star being born) and it explodes (big bang) outward and starts the whole process over again.
What does all that jabber have to do with evolution? You say all this matter had to come from somewhere, right? The thing is, it never started, it just keeps going. It's infinite in both directions. Crazy, huh?
This brings up another question. Everything must start somewhere, it just has to, even in my mind, which just said it was infinite (I find problems in my ideas all the time). So, did a God create it? Seems reasonable, it had to come from somewhere.
This raises yet another question. Where did this God come from? Somehting had to create him, right? Everything had to come from somewhere. Or is it all truly infinite?

I've always thought a God was not a tangible object, but an idea. An idea that people believe in that helps hem get through life. That's cool. But I don't want one of those ideas. I guess that's cool, too. Some believe they will go to heaven or hell or wherever. That's fine. But then they try to force this idea on you by saying "Don't say (a bad word, etc.), you'll go to hell." I answer with "What if I don't believe in hell, then where will I go?" "You'll go there anyway." Then I get pissed and stop talking. Anyway, there is no way to prove anything, except with math, and that can't prove if there is a god, so it can't be proven. I'll just stick with the evolution thing, it makes sense to me, as long as nobody asks a stupid question. Then I get pissed.

Hey, Anderton and Small Fryz, I think I had some ideas that might pertain to your questions, now that I've read your questions. Looks like this thread has turned into a "where did it come from, George?" topic, anyhow.

 

[Zardoz]