Creation vs. Evolution

[Keef]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

If that was true our race would be dead by now and we probably wouldn't have made it to the moon yet. We would have added rockets to the list of things that you go to hell for along with, well, everthing else. We wouldn't need cops because if you killed someone all you'd have to do is say "sorry, God, for I have killed somebody". We would have killed ourselves off.

 

[Swift]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

If that was true our race would be dead by now and we probably wouldn't have made it to the moon yet. We would have added rockets to the list of things that you go to hell for along with, well, everthing else. We wouldn't need cops because if you killed someone all you'd have to do is say "sorry, God, for I have killed somebody". We would have killed ourselves off.

Before you say something like that, you may want to read at least 20 or so pages of this thread.

 

[Keef]

Sorry, I was a little too agressive with that comment.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Why can't somebody just give me the definition of an atom? I don't know what it is, so how about you (kylehnat) especially, stop acting like I insulted you, grow up, stop pouting, and say what it is?
Are they protons, neutrons, and electrons? is that all?
I'll assume it is.

If atoms are a toe, they can't be a tounge. if atoms are a tree, they cant be water. if something can change form, and does so easily, and makes many different things, one must ask, what is it's original form? what REALLY is an Atom? protons? neutrons? electrons? all 3? more chemicals? how much of each? what is an unchanged, unmanipulated, atom? that is what I want to know.
example, 20ccproton, 15mgelectron, and 32wg of neutron is 1 atom. that won't make a piece of skin, that's a piece of a leaf. therefore skin is not made of atoms, or vice versa.
An aton has to be something, and if it is changed, it is no longer an atom. therefore, atoms cannot make everything that exists, because atoms cannot manipulate or change themselves, (or do they?)

 

[Kylehnat]

Why can't somebody just give me the definition of an atom? I don't know what it is, so how about you (kylehnat) especially, stop acting like I insulted you, grow up, stop pouting, and say what it is?
Are they protons, neutrons, and electrons? is that all?
I'll assume it is.

Atom: a basic building block of matter, made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Each atom has a core, or "nucleus" at the center, made up of protons, which have a positive electrical charge, and neutrons, which have no charge. The electrons reside outside the nucleus, and are negatively charged. Different types of atoms, called "elements", are distinguished by the number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus. For example, oxygen has 8 protons and 8 neutrons in its nucleus, whereas carbon has 6 protons and 6 neutrons in its nucleus. This difference is what distinguishes the two elements. These elements can combine to form "molecules", which are chains or sequences of atoms. These molecules can also be arranged in different combinations and sequences to form much larger objects, such as you and me. Molecules form in predetermined ways, governed by the laws of physics and thermodynamics. The reason for this is rooted in the behavior and interactions of electrons. If I could summarize all the nuances of electrons in a single post, I would win a Nobel Prize; it's that complicated. In fact, I have taken no fewer than 10 college courses which focus on electron behavior. If you want to know more, I'm afraid you'll have to do some research.

If atoms are a toe, they can't be a tounge. if atoms are a tree, they cant be water. if something can change form, and does so easily, and makes many different things, one must ask, what is it's original form? what REALLY is an Atom? protons? neutrons? electrons? all 3? more chemicals? how much of each? what is an unchanged, unmanipulated, atom? that is what I want to know.

It might anger you to know that 93% of the mass in your body is either carbon, oxygen, or hydrogen. Three elements. Your toe is made up of the same stuff as your brain.

example, 20ccproton, 15mgelectron, and 32wg of neutron is 1 atom. that won't make a piece of skin, that's a piece of a leaf. therefore skin is not made of atoms, or vice versa.

Your skin and a piece of leaf are not very different at all. The leaf is mostly carbon, just like your skin.

An atom has to be something, and if it is changed, it is no longer an atom.

Yes it is. Atoms rarely change form. That is, a carbon atom will almost always be a carbon atom, and a lead atom will always be a lead atom. In most chemical reactions, all that happens is a re-arranging of atoms. Nuclear reactions are the exception, becuase they involve large atoms (90+ protons and 130+ neutrons) and are therefore inherently unstable.

therefore, atoms cannot make everything that exists,

You're right! There's this funny little thing called light...

 

[Touring Mars]

Good post, kylehnat... 👍

According to Einstein's equation, E=mc^2, energy and mass are essentially the same 'stuff'... so-called 'baryonic matter' is stuff like protons, neutrons etc. that make up atoms, molecules etc., whereas 'light' is energy that has negligble mass... what most people call light is merely radiation, or energy, that is visible to the human eye. Visible light makes up just one fragment of the continuum that is the electromagnetic spectrum. The human eye can detect radiation between 200 nm and 900 nm (nanometers) in wavelength (violet light to red light). Lower than 200 nm is ultra violet, higher than 900 nm is infra-red.

When an atom is split, the energy holding the particles (in the nucleus) together is released, and is the basis for nuclear energy production (and nuclear weapons). Since c is the speed of light (300,000,000 meters per second), and energy = mass x the speed of light squared (i.e. E=mc^2), then you only need a very small amount of mass (atoms) to generate one hell of alot of energy...

 

[Famine]

If atoms are a toe, they can't be a tounge. if atoms are a tree, they cant be water.

In my left hand I have a bottle. This bottle contains approximately two-thirds of its volume in hydrogen gas (look at it, whizzing around! Cool!) and the remainder in oxygen gas.

I can shake it all day long and it would remain two thirds hydrogen gas and one third oxygen gas, though the gas molecules would be quite well mixed. It would not be possible for me to empty out just the hydrogen, or just the oxygen (though I could get close, I would still end up removing some hydrogen with the oxygen, or some oxygen with the hydrogen).

So we have two species of molecule in there, each consisting of one species of atom:

• H2 (Hydrogen gas): Covalently bound hydrogen atoms (1 proton, 1 electron each). They share their electron with each other, so that both atoms act as if they have two electrons - a full electron shell (for the s orbital).
• O2 (Oxygen gas): Covalently bound oxygen atoms (8 protons, 8 neutrons, 8 electrons each). They share two outer shell electrons with each other, so that both atoms act as if they have 10 electrons - two full electron shells (s and p orbitals)

Both molecules are stable - they both act as if they have a full outer electron shell and so neither require electrons nor give them in order to have a full outer shell.

However, an input of energy will break these covalent bonds, leaving the atoms in their singular, reactive states...

*places flame near bottle top*

*explosion*

Now the gas the bottle is filled with is air, which has been "sucked" into the bottle due to the drop in pressure. The pressure has dropped because both the hydrogen gas and oxygen gas have ignited, the molecules have broken apart and reacted with something else - each other - and been turned into a different form. At the bottom of the bottle we have a very small amount of liquid water - H2O. This is all one species of molecule, each consisting of two species of atom:

• H2O (Water): Two atoms of hydrogen covalently bound to one atom of oxygen. Each hydrogen atom shares its one electron with the oxygen atom, so the hydrogens act as if they have 2 electrons (a full s orbital) and the oxygen atom acts as if it has 10 electrons (a full s and a full p orbital)

This molecule is also stable.

Atoms in this demonstration were both gases of two different types and a liquid of a third type.

Now. Where's my eyebrows?

 

[Keef]

If I knew more about the subject I would add, but I don't. I'll take more chemistry in college. Anyway, everything in the universe, except light, I guess, which is made of photons and stuff, is made of a unique combination of elements. Light does have mass, along with electricity, but it is nearly immeasurable. I took a bright camera flash from my friend's dad's fancy camera, powered it up, held it about 4 inches away from an empty pop can, pressed the test button, and I heard a quite audible *ting* sound. I proved to myself that light must have mass, because sound isn't created unless their is contact between two masses (maybe a vibration like a speaker moving the air, a collision like the light hitting the can, friction like two pieces of metal rubbing) and there is a medium for the pressure waves of the sound to travel through, either a solid, liquid, or gas.
That wasn't hardly relevant to the argument, but whatever.
Basically everything is made up of atoms; we haven't found any tangible object that isn't. I'm not disproving God when I say this, but if He were real He would either be made of matter, which means He has mass and is tangible, is not infinite, and could "die" or be disfigured at any time, or He is just a light wave. Since when you get nervous and warm when you do a bad thing maybe he is a microwave?
Anyhow, I can't wait to see if human kind ever finds another naturally occuring element, in addition to the 90 we already know of. We might have to travel to another galaxy to find one, if there are any. Explosions tends to disperse things fairly evenly. Other things I would like to see would be what protons, neutrons, and electrons are made of themselves, if they are anything simpler than themselves. What about these photons, what are they? I wonder if there is even a single or multiple things that is literally the basis of everything. Everything has to be made of somethng, right? Maybe everything is made of everything. No, never mind.

2 H2 + O2 => 2 H2O I'll just throw the combustion of hydrogen in there for good measure, so you can see what goes where in Famine's excellent example. I wish internet explorer would keep Word formatting, though, with the subsripts and fancy arrow. If you're paying attention you will see why car companies are looking at hydrogen combustion engines for an alternative/replacement for gas. Look at the product. You might recognize it.

2 H2O => 2 H2 + 02 Just for fun, this is one of many ways we can make hydrogen, and probably the most well known. It's electrolysis.

 

[Famine]

Other things I would like to see would be what protons, neutrons, and electrons are made of themselves, if they are anything simpler than themselves.

Electrons are what are known as "leptons" (along with muons and taus). Nothing "smaller" than them exists. However, each lepton consists of a massive particle (called an electron, muon or tau) and an associated neutrino (called an electron neutrino, muon neutrino and tau neutrino) which has no charge and nearly no mass.

Protons and neutrons are made up of the other fundamental particles - quarks. There are six quarks - called top, bottom, up, down, strange and charm. Each proton and neutron, along with other similar particles, collectively known as baryons, contains three quarks. A proton contains two up quarks and one down quark, and a neutron consists of two down quarks and one up quark. It is actually possibly for a free neutron to decay (half life of ~15 minutes), by emitting an electron/electron neutrino pair, into a proton.

It's worth noting that the Standard Model of particle physics assumes that leptons and quarks have structure. This has never been proven - they are as small as we can go.

So, from "smallest" to "largest" we go:
Fermions - Not made of anything (probably). Examples are Leptons (like Electrons) & Quarks
Mesons - Made of two quarks. Examples... you don't want to know... Trust me.
Baryons - Made of three quarks. Examples are Protons and Neutrons
Atoms/Ions - Made of protons, neutrons (except hydrogen) and electrons (except H+).
Molecules - Made of atoms.


However... "fermion" can also mean something completely different (an atom can be a fermion too, as can a baryon) and we also have bosons. Which can also mean several things (including some atoms and all mesons).

Particle physics IS gibberish.

 

[Keef]

One day the make up of the universe will get so complicated we will, simultaneoulsy, spontaneously forget everything we already understood in a brain fart so magnificent that the sounds of the world will be drowned out by the collective scream of the earth's population caused by the severe pain of this knowledge backfire which was, in turn, activated by the discovery that conservation of mass is false. "WHERE DID IT GO, IT HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE!!" the scientists will cry. I hope I never live to see this day.

 

[Kylehnat]

Particle physics IS gibberish.

True statement. One of my classes last year was in the same room as a graduate-level particle physics class. When we came in, there were more partial derivatives, tensors, and wave functions on the board than any human should have to look at.

If that didn't prove the absence of a God, I don't know what would.

 

[Swift]

True statement. One of my classes last year was in the same room as a graduate-level particle physics class. When we came in, there were more partial derivatives, tensors, and wave functions on the board than any human should have to look at.

If that didn't prove the absence of a God, I don't know what would.

The equations you didn't understand proved that God didn't exist?

 

[Casio]

Light does have mass, along with electricity, but it is nearly immeasurable. I took a bright camera flash from my friend's dad's fancy camera, powered it up, held it about 4 inches away from an empty pop can, pressed the test button, and I heard a quite audible *ting* sound.

Slightly off-topic. But I honestly find this hard to believe.

Light does not cause an audible *ting* sound. If so, how come my car doesn't ting when I come out of a tunnel? So if I get an empty can tomorrow, and shine a bright torch at it from even 1 inch away, i'll hear a *ting* sound?

 

[Keef]

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/light_mass.html
Try that. I really don't understand it, but I figured that sound wouldn't be created unless an object wth mass hit another object with mass.
This camera flash I speak of is very intense, very quick, the light is, obviously, dizzyingly bright, and when you aim it at your skin you feel the heat; I'd say the heat is well over 150F, but just for a split second. I know this is caused by the ultraviolet radiation; maybe it was the instant increase in heat that caused the aluminum can to expand rapidly. Kind of like how lightning super-heats the air, making it expand immensly and rapidly, and, in turn, causing a large bang sound, the product of the increase in pressure. I'm really not sure. I've never seen or felt a flashlight that lit quick enough or hot enough to "hit" anything with its light. You have to remember that the can is extremely thin and prone to shock and vibration. Seriously, this flash felt like you got smacked in the face.
That link above says light doesn't have "regular" mass, I guess, but it is still hard for me to believe. I already know that light is effected by gravity, and that is almost proof enough to me that it has mass. Gravity is the natural force of attraction between any two massive bodies (no matter how small), which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
But back on topic, if god is real, he is effected by gravity, and if Satan is real, he'd better have strong bones to sustain the immense pressures created by gravity, which intensifies the closer you get to the center of mass in an object, like, say, the earth. Or your keyboard.

 

[Kylehnat]

The equations you didn't understand proved that God didn't exist?

A merciful and loving God would not allow His children be tortured like that.

 

[Swift]

A merciful and loving God would not allow His children be tortured like that.

That's some seriously weak sarcasam

 

[Kylehnat]

The equations you didn't understand proved that God didn't exist?

I understood a little bit from quantum mechanics. However, whenever I see a momentum operator, I want to run far, far away.

That's some seriously weak sarcasam

Comic Book Guy: "Oh, a sarcasm detector; that's a real useful invention..." (Professor Frink's device explodes)

 

[Perfect Balance]

I do not get why people associate creation of life with evolution, when all that evolution means is "The change in genetic makeup over time." This says nothing about how life was created. Also, evolution is no longer a theory, it has been proven on the Galapogos Islands, but in the "natural selection" way, where the animals more fit to the enviorment are the ones that survive in the future. So if there is the same species of birds, but some with bigger beaks, then one year the food is scarce, and the food comes in small forms for example, then the ones with the smaller beaks can pick up the food easier, and produce more offspring. Then if one year there is a lot of rain and such, the food (seeds for example) are really big, then the ones with big beaks can pick up and eat the food easier, and that process goes on forever, leaning one way or another. But, on the topic of creation of life, there is the possibility that God created life through the process of "the big bang" or something similar, because even though in the bible it says that god created the universe in 7 days, back then there was no measure of time, so that one "day" may have been a period of a billion years.

 

[kennythebomb]

I do not get why people associate creation of life with evolution, when all that evolution means is "The change in genetic makeup over time." This says nothing about how life was created. Also, evolution is no longer a theory, it has been proven on the Galapogos Islands, but in the "natural selection" way, where the animals more fit to the enviorment are the ones that survive in the future. So if there is the same species of birds, but some with bigger beaks, then one year the food is scarce, and the food comes in small forms for example, then the ones with the smaller beaks can pick up the food easier, and produce more offspring. Then if one year there is a lot of rain and such, the food (seeds for example) are really big, then the ones with big beaks can pick up and eat the food easier, and that process goes on forever, leaning one way or another. But, on the topic of creation of life, there is the possibility that God created life through the process of "the big bang" or something similar, because even though in the bible it says that god created the universe in 7 days, back then there was no measure of time, so that one "day" may have been a period of a billion years.

That's basically what I believe.

The evolution that has been proven is micro evolution - change in a species over time.

Macro is what I don't believe in. God put at least some animals there

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Atom: a basic building block of matter, made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Each atom has a core, or "nucleus" at the center, made up of protons, which have a positive electrical charge, and neutrons, which have no charge. The electrons reside outside the nucleus, and are negatively charged. Different types of atoms, called "elements", are distinguished by the number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus. For example, oxygen has 8 protons and 8 neutrons in its nucleus, whereas carbon has 6 protons and 6 neutrons in its nucleus. This difference is what distinguishes the two elements. These elements can combine to form "molecules", which are chains or sequences of atoms. These molecules can also be arranged in different combinations and sequences to form much larger objects, such as you and me. Molecules form in predetermined ways, governed by the laws of physics and thermodynamics. The reason for this is rooted in the behavior and interactions of electrons. If I could summarize all the nuances of electrons in a single post, I would win a Nobel Prize; it's that complicated. In fact, I have taken no fewer than 10 college courses which focus on electron behavior. If you want to know more, I'm afraid you'll have to do some research.

Thank you. all I needed to get a basic idea.

It might anger you to know that 93% of the mass in your body is either carbon, oxygen, or hydrogen. Three elements. Your toe is made up of the same stuff as your brain.

I feel alright.

 

[Famine]

The evolution that has been proven is micro evolution - change in a species over time.

Macro is what I don't believe in.

Why not? Microevolution leads to macroevolution. In fact it necessitates it.

Enough small changes over enough time -> Macroevolution. And we're talking about a whole crapload of time here.

 

[Keef]

Billions of years, in fact. If you lived to be 75,you could have had over 106,666,666 lives in the ~8,000,000,000 years the earth has been spherical in shape. It all started with one single cell (a bacterium). Cells don't have to have another in order to mate, see. Of course, that was the first living thing, not the first inanimate thing...
Rocks came millions of years before life. You get the idea?
From a green cell to a blue cell--that's basically microevolution. Going from one cell to two--that's microevolution. Going from black skin (as in humans) to white skin--that's microevolution. But how did we get from one cell to a human? Well, a lot of micros equals one macro. Look at the metric system for proof of that.

 

[ledhed]

famine ...talking billions or even millions of years to those that swear on the earth being 6000 more or less years old is as easy as convincing Raelians that formula one racing is a way to connect with GOD .

 

[Perfect Balance]

famine ...talking billions or even millions of years to those that swear on the earth being 6000 more or less years old is as easy as convincing Raelians that formula one racing is a way to connect with GOD .

That is why I pointed out that was no measure of time back then. So those "7 days" of creation could have been periods of billions of years.

 

[Kylehnat]

So you concede that it is possible that enough time has passed to turn a single-celled microbe into complex beings like us?

 

[Perfect Balance]

So you concede that it is possible that enough time has passed to turn a single-celled microbe into complex beings like us?

I think that there could have been enough time for that to happen, but I don't think that it did.

 

[kennythebomb]

I think that there could have been enough time for that to happen, but I don't think that it did.

Nicely worded.

 

[Touring Mars]

I think that there could have been enough time for that to happen, but I don't think that it did.

On what are you basing your opinion that you don't think it did happen? The fact that life in all it's myriad forms is here on this planet is pretty solid evidence that it did happen. If humankind were the only living things on this planet, then evolution theory would have a major problem explaining it. But obviously this isn't the case. Evolution, if it is to have any credibility, requires an expanse of time inconsistent with a Creationist interpretation of the Bible - but that is all it is inconsistent with. However, the facts of Evolution are consistent with a modern scientific understanding of the real age of the Earth (billions of years old). The tremendous diversity of living things and their adaptation to their surroundings requires a more robust explanation than simply 'This is how God made us'.... Evolution (both facts and theory) is, thus far, the best explanation by far for these clearly observable phenomena of diversity, adaptation and (most significantly) the relatedness of species for which their is ample evidence.

... is as easy as convincing Raelians that formula one racing is a way to connect with GOD .

Yeh, don't they believe in Rallyin'?

 

[Carl.]

Yeh, don't they believe in Rallyin'?

Nah, they believe in FIA GT Viper GTS-R or Porsche 996 GT3-R, apparently. (and others )

*runs to start an alien cult about orgies*

 

[Small_Fryz]

I think that there could have been enough time for that to happen, but I don't think that it did.

why not?

What did happen?