Creation vs. Evolution

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kylehnat
Maybe not immature, but punishing every human that comes after them is a bit over the top, don't you think? I thought if anyone was capable of not holding a grudge and granting forgiveness, it would be God. This suggests otherwise.

But they DIDN'T ask for forgiveness. They made excuses. That's the difference.

Have you ever, and I do mean ever, done anything that God would consider a sin? If you have, then you're just as guilty as Adam. I know I have.
 
Swift
But they DIDN'T ask for forgiveness. They made excuses. That's the difference.

Have you ever, and I do mean ever, done anything that God would consider a sin? If you have, then you're just as guilty as Adam. I know I have.

God made man a sinner. How can he blame us for being what he made us?
 
Right, he created us to "make excuses" or whatever. It's like me building a robot, then that robot does something I told him not to. How am I going to blame the robot? It's my fault, as I messed up somewhere in the production obviously.
 
danoff
God made man a sinner. How can he blame us for being what he made us?

God gave man free will and ONE rule. How can your parents blame your when you messed up as a child when they told you not to do something? Granted, they didn't create you as it were. But they gave you a rule, and you break it willingly. How is that a different situation. Free will does not mean you have to sin.

Right, he created us to "make excuses" or whatever. It's like me building a robot, then that robot does something I told him not to. How am I going to blame the robot? It's my fault, as I messed up somewhere in the production obviously.

It's not the same. you are imperfect, therefore it's impossible for you to build a perfect robot.
 
Swift
God gave man free will and ONE rule. How can your parents blame your when you messed up as a child when they told you not to do something? Granted, they didn't create you as it were. But they gave you a rule, and you break it willingly. How is that a different situation. Free will does not mean you have to sin.

Your parents aren't going to kick you out of the house for it. Well, good parents anyway.


It's not the same. you are imperfect, therefore it's impossible for you to build a perfect robot.

So what? If Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they disobey God?
 
Zrow
Your parents aren't going to kick you out of the house for it. Well, good parents anyway.

Actually, after a certain point, good parents WOULD kick their child out of the house.




Zrow
So what? If Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they disobey God?

The question is not why did they disobey God because that answer is obvious. The question is why didn't Adam ask for forgiveness instead of blaming Eve.
 
Swift
It's not the same. you are imperfect, therefore it's impossible for you to build a perfect robot.
But I could build a robot, tell it that I am perfect, and have it believe me. Then I could blame and punish it for my programming errors (and believe me, there would be plenty :)).
 
kylehnat
But I could build a robot, tell it that I am perfect, and have it believe me. Then I could blame and punish it for my programming errors (and believe me, there would be plenty :)).

So, are you saying God is a liar?
 
Swift
The question is not why did they disobey God because that answer is obvious. The question is why didn't Adam ask for forgiveness instead of blaming Eve.

So there are TWO points at which God screwed up. The first point was giving man the desire to sin (even if we have free will, that doesn't mean we have to have the desire to sin). The second point was making adam NOT have the desire to ask for forgiveness.

I can see where Adam was coming from though. After 900 years I'd be sick of counting leaves also.
 
danoff
So there are TWO points at which God screwed up. The first point was giving man the desire to sin (even if we have free will, that doesn't mean we have to have the desire to sin). The second point was making adam NOT have the desire to ask for forgiveness.

I can see where Adam was coming from though. After 900 years I'd be sick of counting leaves also.

Free Will, it can go either way. God didn't give us the desire to sin.

We are not robots. Adam had the ability to ask for forgiveness but CHOSE not to. That is the very essence of free will. God gives us the choice. We are not forced into doing what he says, we can choose not to. Adam, chose not to and chose not to ask for forgiveness as well.
 
Swift
Free Will, it can go either way. God didn't give us the desire to sin.


Oh come on... seriously (hmmm.. have to use the internet abbreviation) srsly.

I suppose then that it's just all a matter of choice whether or not you want to eat. I suppose that it's a matter of choice whether you find a particular girl attractive, or whether you wish to gain knowledge (from the tree of knowledge or otherwise).

Man is built with certain inherent desires. The desire to preserve our lives, the desire to procreate, the desire to acquire knowledge. There are many innate desires - some of which differ from person to person. Some people have the desire to murder, others have the desire for power. These are not personal choices.

Nobody sits down and says "I think I'll decide to want to murder people". They just WANT to. Maybe it's a result of all of the things they've been exposed to in their lives, or maybe they're a little nuts, but the desire is still there.

Acting on that desire is a personal choice. You choose whether or not to eat, you choose whether or not to acquire knowledge or murder and you bear responsibilities for those choices. But the desire is innate.

God made us with these desires. Why would he do that? Why would he make Adam have the desire to go against his will? If Adam caves to that desire, it's God's fault for putting it there in the first place.
 
danoff
Nobody sits down and says "I think I'll decide to want to murder people". They just WANT to. Maybe it's a result of all of the things they've been exposed to in their lives, or maybe they're a little nuts, but the desire is still there.

Uh, it's called assasination. I'm sure that would be considered a decision and planning to murder someone.

danoff
Acting on that desire is a personal choice. You choose whether or not to eat, you choose whether or not to acquire knowledge or murder and you bear responsibilities for those choices. But the desire is innate.

God made us with these desires. Why would he do that? Why would he make Adam have the desire to go against his will? If Adam caves to that desire, it's God's fault for putting it there in the first place.

Are you forgeting about the factor of Eve and the serpent in this whole thing?
 
Swift
Uh, it's called assasination. I'm sure that would be considered a decision and planning to murder someone.

Oh... wait... what? Yea, it's a choice like I said, but the desire is different from the decision to act on it.

Are you forgeting about the factor of Eve and the serpent in this whole thing?

No. Eve had the same desire.

OOOOHHH!!! Wait just a minute! I get it. Our desire to sin is implanted in us by Satan!! Got it! So if Adam and Eve are our robots with free will, Satan is a 1337 hacker who gets Adam and Eve to abuse their will.

Right, and God is blaming Adam and Eve for their willingness to give in to the desires Satan gives them. Oh I'm totally getting this now.

So God needed a firewall. Why didn't he give Adam and Eve a firewall to block Satan's 1337ness?
 
danoff
Oh... wait... what? Yea, it's a choice like I said, but the desire is different from the decision to act on it.

Right, but either way it was the persons choice.

danoff
No. Eve had the same desire.

OOOOHHH!!! Wait just a minute! I get it. Our desire to sin is implanted in us by Satan!! Got it! So if Adam and Eve are our robots with free will, Satan is a 1337 hacker who gets Adam and Eve to abuse their will.

Right, and God is blaming Adam and Eve for their willingness to give in to the desires Satan gives them. Oh I'm totally getting this now.

So God needed a firewall. Why didn't he give Adam and Eve a firewall to block Satan's 1337ness?

Sarcasam, nice.

Adam had a simple choice, listen to God or listen to his wife. He chose his wife and then blamed God because he gave Adam the wife. Eve was beguiled by Satan and then Adam chose to listen to his wife over God. He walked with God everyday and he STILL chose his wife and pride over God.

Satan can only tempt us, like he did to Jesus. It's up to us to be strong enough to resist the temptation. Again, like Jesus did.
 
Swift
Right, but either way it was the persons choice.

I'm not denying that Swift. A person's choices are influenced by their desires, desires that God implanted.


Adam had a simple choice, listen to God or listen to his wife. He chose his wife and then blamed God because he gave Adam the wife. Eve was beguiled by Satan and then Adam chose to listen to his wife over God. He walked with God everyday and he STILL chose his wife and pride over God.

Why did God design adam in such a way as to make this decision? God could have designed Adam to be smart enough not to make this goof up.

Satan can only tempt us, like he did to Jesus. It's up to us to be strong enough to resist the temptation. Again, like Jesus did.

We're only as strong as God makes us... perhaps if God made us stronger, none of us would give in to temptation - like Jesus.
 
danoff
I'm not denying that Swift. A person's choices are influenced by their desires, desires that God implanted.

Actually, a person's choices are infuenced by their desires and the people that they talk to. In this case, satan.


danoff
Why did God design adam in such a way as to make this decision? God could have designed Adam to be smart enough not to make this goof up.

Are you saying that smart people don't make mistakes? Adam had all the info anyone could ask for. He talked with God on a regular basis, God let him know the ONE rule in the entire garden. What reason would Adam have not to trust God? Then there was Eve that let herself be beguiled by satan. So, she goes to Adam and says, "have some" and he does for some stupid reason.

danoff
We're only as strong as God makes us... perhaps if God made us stronger, none of us would give in to temptation - like Jesus.

No, we are only as strong in God as we WANT to be. Some people literally don't care about it, so they just do whatever feels good. You can strengthen your relationship with God through your effort. If you really want to overcome sin, just like a smoker trying to quit, you can. You simply have to make the choice and stick to it.
 
So even though God is all powerful - you're telling me that there was no way he could have improved Adam such that he would not eat of the apple of knowledge.
 
All right… here’s the gist, we sin because we’re stupid. Stupidity doesn't make you imperfect other wise lower creatures such as dogs, cats, what ever would be imperfect. What it makes us is vulnerable. Satan tempts us and we sin… just like Eve. She never would have sinned had she not been tempted… Though many people don’t like to think like this is how sin works because it leads us to feeling as though we’re easily and constantly duped and that hurts our egos… Again, a sin… Pride. Free will in reality is perfect as it allows us to have potential. Without it we’d be exactly what we were made and only that, but with free will we can use our own judgment and intuition to do what ever we want and maybe even surpass what was originally intended for us.

*As a side note, it was free will that made Lucifer fall from grace. It was the one thing he wanted most. He hated having to do, as God wanted him to. His jealousy of man made him hate. Ironically, had he not been such a high ranking angel in the first place, he’d never even have realized what was going on in the first place…

And as for asking God for forgiveness, you have to remember, the God of the Old Testament was a very different God then the one from the New Testament, at least as far as temperament was concerned. The old God was all business, Sodom and Gomorra, Noah and the Flood, and the Tower of Babble, just a few examples of what we might consider harsh treatments for disobeying. I’m sure people could ask for forgiveness, but it really wasn’t “made popular” or made known until Jesus came and basically told people that in order to stay in God’s good book, you had to apologize and basically throw yourself on his mercy.
 
God knew all of this would happen, god knew lucifer would fall, god knew adam and eve would sin. So why didnt he change it? why didnt he make it different. He has the power, no? It almosts falls on God wanted adam and eve to sin, as he knew they would yet failed to fix the situation. God knew we were doomed as soon as God started to exists, as according to you guys, he knows everything. So why bother making anything, when he knew from day dot that it wont work.

Doesnt make sense.
 
James2097
Danoff makes sense here. I love it when a joke is so funny, yet so true. Satan is too L337 for god. Gold, that one. 👍

yeah, and God CREATED satan, so, that would be a logical contradiction

danoff
So even though God is all powerful - you're telling me that there was no way he could have improved Adam such that he would not eat of the apple of knowledge.

First, it was fruit. Many people use apple just because it's commonly known but we don't know exactly what kind of fruit.

Second, I'm telling you that God gave humans free will to choose what they want to do. So Adam could've been the smartest being in existance, next to God, and he STILL could've taken the fruit.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why it's such a big deal.
 
If God and Adam were tiggity-tight, why was God so furious over one indiscresion? If we chastised our friends for one fault, we'd never have friends :(
 
1st... God is not your friend... Sounds harsh, I know, but he's your creator. Like your dad, he'll tax you if you overstep your bounds. Think of eden as his brand new Lexus. If you crashed it cause you were goofing off. You're never going to drive one of his cars again... simple... no?
 
Canadian Speed
1st... God is not your friend... Sounds harsh, I know, but he's your creator. Like your dad, he'll tax you if you overstep your bounds. Think of eden as his brand new Lexus. If you crashed it cause you were goofing off. You're never going to drive one of his cars again... simple... no?

Why should everyone follow God then? What if we want to crash our own Lexus and then buy a BMW? What if you are your own God?
 
kylehnat
If God and Adam were tiggity-tight, why was God so furious over one indiscresion? If we chastised our friends for one fault, we'd never have friends :(

There was only ONE RULE! You mean to tell me that God shouldn't be upset if you can't follow one rule?

Jimmy's Woman
Why should everyone follow God then? What if we want to crash our own Lexus and then buy a BMW? What if you are your own God?

Then to be honest, you're rather foolish

James2097
God is just sadistic then. Simple extrapolation.

No, he's consistant. He said that Adam would die if he ate the fruit and he followed through with the punishment.
 
Jimmy's Woman
Why should everyone follow God then? What if we want to crash our own Lexus and then buy a BMW? What if you are your own God?

You mean like a cult? You could call it Jimmy's Womanism... I can see it now...

JW "Drink the juice... Ah, come on... drink the juice... You can't drive in my Lexus until you drink the juice damn it"
Follower "Okay, but you gotta do it with me on three..."
JW "Okay, on three... one... two... three... Hey you didn't drink..."
Follower "Yeah, well you didn't either... Know what I don't want to ride in your cappy banged up Lexus anyhow."
JW "Well go then, and leave your inter-galactic space suit"
Ex-Follower "Here's you crappy bubble wrap. By the way JW, move out of your parent's basement. They hate you..." slams doors a leaves house.
JW, furious, slams back his plastic glass of juice.
 
Swift
There was only ONE RULE! You mean to tell me that God shouldn't be upset if you can't follow one rule?
Why would God forbid Adam and Eve from eating fruit?! I mean, come on, fruit is so good for you; full of vitamins! Why would God want Adam to be malnourished?? I'm beginning to question His priorities...
 
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