Creation vs. Evolution

[holl01]

I believe in evolution. However there are flaws to both theories. I just came up with one big gaping hole for the evolutionists.

Why did earth's life suddenly exploded in diversity, numbers, etc, in the last 544 million years? I've just studied about that subject, and couldn't help wondering what was happening for the rest of the 4.1 billion years. Anyone with an answer or a suggestion? I think this will make a good debate if people participate.

Yep, this phenominon is known as the Cambrian explosion. This explosion is perhaps the most striking single event documented by the fossil record. In the strict sense, the explosion refers to a geologically abrupt appearance of fossils representing all except two of the living animals (phyla) that had durable (easily fossilizable) skeletons. Precision dating indicates that the explosion began at 530 Myrs and ended before 520 Myrsago.

In other words, in this late Early Cambrian period, animals diversified explosively from almost nothing to approximately the full range of basic archetypes known today, in as little as 10 million years. What drove this rapid evolutinary explosion, probably external factors such as temperature or varying oxygen levels, and also the continual 'survival of the fittest' concept, in which skeletonisation of organisms suddenly became dominant.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Now I understand both sides better, but I believe in evolution even more.

I believe in evolution.

You'd be kinda stupid if you didn't believe in evolution, as it has been proved.

seriously, who in their right mind could actually believe that the planet and all the animals were created in 7 days?? LOL. its simply fiction, its a fairytale.

If you looked back a couple pages, you would have seen where I said "there was no measure of time back then, so 7 "days" could have been periods of billions of years.




This is getting kind of repetitive, the same things are being said as they were in the beginning of this thread, and these are the same people that don't even know enough about the subject to keep up a good argument. This thread shouldn't have been made in the first place, as creation of life and evolution are 2 different subjects, they are not opposites of each other.

 

[(G)]

Why did earth's life suddenly exploded in diversity, numbers, etc, in the last 544 million years?

i don't think it was a sudden explosion of diversity so much as more fossilized remains being from that time period.

But that's just my unresearched, on-the-spot hunch.

(BTW, this thread took me 6 months to read and catch up to the beginning.)

 

[Famine]

I believe in evolution. However there are flaws to both theories. I just came up with one big gaping hole for the evolutionists.

Why did earth's life suddenly exploded in diversity, numbers, etc, in the last 544 million years? I've just studied about that subject, and couldn't help wondering what was happening for the rest of the 4.1 billion years. Anyone with an answer or a suggestion? I think this will make a good debate if people participate.

The first 0.5 billion years weren't much use at all. Earth was still massively hot, got smacked by a Mars-sized body and didn't have an atmosphere. So a bit of a bummer for anyone who fancied living here, really.

The next several hundred million years all we had were bacteria. It took 1.5 billion years before we got off unicellular organisms. Once we'd worked out multicellulars, that's where the fun began.


Imagine, if you will, a Lego set. All you have are red, 4x2 blocks (which self-propogate). All you can build, no matter how many you have, are red, 4x2 block-based animals. Then one day, a mutation happens and you get a blue, 4x2 block which, for some reason, gives it a higher chance of "survival" (being included in an animal) - probably because you're sick to death of playing with red, 4x2 blocks. Suddenly you've got evolution, and the blue block is heritable...

Say you're building animals with no more than 5 blocks - you've got a total of 5 different animals you can build with just red, 4x2s because whichever block you leave out it's identical to any other. Throw in just ONE blue 4x2 block and you've got 20 different animals you can build - a population explosion.


With simple organisms you can have a relatively unchanged population, despite short generation times, for a long period of time so long as there's no external influences necessitating a change in genotype for survival. As soon as you get some complexity - or variety - rapid changes in diversity follow.


Read up on something called "HSP90" (a heat shock protein), for a molecular genetics explanation of population expansions.

 

[Small_Fryz]

So basically what famine is saying is

It was a snowball effect.

 

[Kylehnat]

Things that grow exponentially tend to do that. Like comparing how many different pizzas you can make with 4 different toppings with the number of pizzas you can make with 5. Although with that many toppings, hopefully one will be Pepto Bismol.

Kudos to Famine for the Lego example 👍. Just thinking back to my younger days, I wonder how many "animals" I could have made with thousands of different pieces...

 

[GT4_Rule]

Great explanation Famine. They should teach evolution like that at school! That way everyone will understand.

 

[Touring Mars]

Mass extinctions are also a very interesting phenomenon, of which there exists ample evidence, both in the fossil record and geological surveys etc.. The diversity of life on the planet in any given era can only ever be as good as the length of time since the last mass extinction event allows - fortunately for us, it has been 65 million years since the last one...

We should be thankful that anything survives these mass extinctions, otherwise we'd be back to square one. And perhaps the conditions that gave rise to the origins of organic life in the first instance would not happen here ever again..?! i.e. if the planet Earth was totally sterilised by a massive extinction event (maybe a prolonged zapping by cosmic gamma rays from a nearby supernova or something), the planet may never see life ever again... but fortunately for us, the small numbers of survivors of mass extinctions are able to generate immense diversity, due to the process(es) of evolution that allows life to adapt to it's surroundings.

I always thought of God as a bloke with a white/silver/ beard (not unlike santa claus - coincidence?) - but apparantly he must also a look a little bit like Oprah Winfrey, go figure.

"Sometimes you confuse me with Santa Claus,
It's the big white beard, I suppose..."
(Lyric from "God's Comic" by Elvis Costello (from the album 'Spike'))

 

[Touring Mars]

Creationism in UK classrooms?...

Although it looks like Creationist 'theories' will only be mentioned in the broader context of how accepted theories have become accepted, it is still, in my view, a worrying development... this is exactly the 'Wedge Strategy' that Creation theory strategists plan to use - 'Teach the Controversy'... Again, merely in my view, as soon as you mention the word 'God' in Biology class, you're no longer talking about biology.

 

[Keef]

Every single type of science taught in a public school is based on the idea that things evolved over time. Biology, like you said. All sorts of Earth sciences, that's usually what it's called, like astronomy and paelientology, all that stuff has to have the evolution background in order to make sense.
Some of my teachers can hold little debates about God and all, and I've never seen a kid go crazy because they couldn't fathom the idea of evoltion. They might go to church every day, but they still get it.

 

[Danoff]

The bottom line in the debate on what should be taught in public schools is that tax dollars from creationists are being used to indoctrinate children with ideas that they consider unholy and wrong.

Maybe you disagree with them - and maybe they're wrong. But isn't it a perversion of the system to use their money to teach children that they're wrong?

I feel for them. I feel for them when their tax dollars are used to fund stem cell research when they see it as evil. I feel for them when their tax dollars are used to teach children that creationism is wrong.

I'm all for stem cell research, and I'm all for teaching evolution - but I don't like using their money to do it.

 

[Keef]

Then maybe they should move to Russia :sarcasm:, because America is about moving forward with technology and science. You will never get better at anything if you believe in the same thing and don't ever change it or study it. If the creationist theory were true, there would be absolutely no point in doing anything, not even living. If everything is set and has always been so, why are you wasting your energy? You can't change it. You don't want to change it. So, what's the point?
I believe religion is not a natural act for humans to follow. I believe that humans are supposed to create ideas and investigate an ask "Why?" Most religions frown upon this, and some extremist people take it a little too far.

Was that another of my sorry-I-was-in-one-of-those-moods opinons?

 

[Swift]

Then maybe they should move to Russia :sarcasm:, because America is about moving forward with technology and science. You will never get better at anything if you believe in the same thing and don't ever change it or study it. If the creationist theory were true, there would be absolutely no point in doing anything, not even living. If everything is set and has always been so, why are you wasting your energy? You can't change it. You don't want to change it. So, what's the point?
I believe religion is not a natural act for humans to follow. I believe that humans are supposed to create ideas and investigate an ask "Why?" Most religions frown upon this, and some extremist people take it a little too far.

Was that another of my sorry-I-was-in-one-of-those-moods opinons?

What are you talking about?

If creation is true then there's no point to living?

We have a treamondous reason for living. I'm trying to figure out why you think if you're created by somone and not random occurences that there is not point. Looking at that statement, I would say the opposite is true.

 

[Danoff]

Then maybe they should move to Russia :sarcasm:, because America is about moving forward with technology and science. You will never get better at anything if you believe in the same thing and don't ever change it or study it. If the creationist theory were true, there would be absolutely no point in doing anything, not even living. If everything is set and has always been so, why are you wasting your energy? You can't change it. You don't want to change it. So, what's the point?
I believe religion is not a natural act for humans to follow. I believe that humans are supposed to create ideas and investigate an ask "Why?" Most religions frown upon this, and some extremist people take it a little too far.

There is a difference between making it illegal to perform stem cell research, or teach evolution, and using taxpayer dollars to do it. I think stem cell research should be legal, and I think evolution should be taught. But tax dollars don't need to be used. We have lots of private companies that can provide those services.

Imagine for a moment that your roles were reversed. Imagine that your tax dollars were used to teach your children creationism? Do you not see the wrong in that? I'm talking about where the money comes from .

My tax dollars are used to teach impressionable college students that capitalism is bad - that socialism is the proper government structure, and that altruistic behavior is the only honorable behavior.

These disgusting notions are taught to children (perhaps someday my children) using my money to do it. I find that horrendous, just as I'm sure creationists find it horrendous that their money is used to teach their children that they are wrong.

I'm trying to figure out why you think if you're created by somone and not random occurences that there is not point.

Swift, I'm sure I corrected you on that point before. Nobody thinks humans developed randomly.

 

[Keef]

Isn't one of the fundamentals of the whole "all powerful God" thing that He created all and the destiny of the universe is set and cannot be changed? That renders the search for the beginning of human kind pointless. "It came from God" is the answer in that case. That's it. That's the Final Answer. No more searching needed. The bell rang, school's out. Have a good night sleep, you worked hard today. Oh, and don't bother waking in the morning, we already have the answer for every question you could possibly come up with.
I'm almost positive you do not have this extreme idea. But there are people out there that do think the answer to everything is "God made it" or "God said so". Isn't an important point of life to answer a question of some sort? Since all of their questions are answered, why do these religious extremist people keep trudging on?

EDIT:
Danoff, I do see the wrong in funding something that contradicts your beliefs, and I understand the feeling perfectly, and I'm pretty sure most people do. Just look at the government for those kinds of examples. I especially feel cheated when my money goes to the teaching of something where there are no questions to be answered.

 

[Swift]

Swift, I'm sure I corrected you on that point before. Nobody thinks humans developed randomly.

Sure they do, they just don't think it's an accident. And I understand that difference.

Keef, have you read the bible much? Honestly, if we knew for sure, 100% scientifically that people were created by God,(maybe not the creation story exactly but a power beyond our understanding) how would that change our lives from what they are? why would that make us different from what we are now?

 

[Danoff]

Sure they do, they just don't think it's an accident. And I understand that difference.

No, we do not. Evolution isn't a random event - it's a natural process (I'm sure I've gone through this). Lots of natural processes have random elements, but... and I want to be absolutely clear on this...

so I'll put a space here


that doesn't make the process random.

Human beings are not a random development. Evolution is not random. Evolution is a natural process guided by one very simple concept - natural selection. Natural selection is not "random selection".

 

[Swift]

No, we do not. Evolution isn't a random event - it's a natural process (I'm sure I've gone through this). Lots of natural processes have random elements, but... and I want to be absolutely clear on this...

so I'll put a space here


that doesn't make the process random.

Human beings are not a random development. Evolution is not random. Evolution is a natural process guided by one very simple concept - natural selection. Natural selection is not "random selection".

Ok, if you look at evolution vs creation as the origin of mankind it HAS to be random as it has no designer or planner. Randomly, a process was started to "begin" life umpteen billion years ago. There's not getting around that. I dont' see you you could. Sure, natural selection isn't random but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about origins.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, if you look at evolution vs creation as the origin of mankind it HAS to be random as it has no designer or planner. Randomly, a process was started to "begin" life umpteen billion years ago. There's not getting around that. I dont' see you you could. Sure, natural selection isn't random but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about origins.

*sigh*

No, it doesn't have to be random. You're getting really hung up on the specifics here when the big picture is what you should really be focusing on.

It's like, you observed my commute to work this morning. You noticed that I shifted into 3rd gear at exactly 8:16:34.1259872349871598716948345987235 PST. That I shifted into 3rd gear at that time is random. That I shifted into 3rd gear anytime in that second, or even that minute, or even that ten minutes is basically random.

But, the fact that I shifted into 3rd gear this morning is not random, and it definitely isn't random that I got to work this morning.

That life evolved is not random - and you've conceeded that point. That life began at all is not random either. It's a natural chemical process which arises under certain conditions. We're still trying to get a handle on how frequent this process occurs, but rest-assured, it is a fundamental conseuqence of the nature of the universe.

Perhaps you'd like to go back further and suggest that I think the universe is random. I can't tell you exactly how the universe began, but I have a pretty good idea of what the answer will look like - it's a fundamental conseuqence of nothingness.

 

[Swift]

Sorry Dan, I just don't see how lightning hitting a pool of amino acids isn't random.

 

[Keef]

I agree with Swift on the "random" thing. If it is a definite process, it had to be organized by something. I know it has to follow the laws of physics, even the ones we don't know about, but you can't tell me that if a comet crashes into Earth and everything dies but some things live and evolve once again, that that was not a random event. It is random and programmed at the same time.
Why did humans get so intelligent when orangutans didn't? At one time we were in the same stage of evolution, but the monkeys stopped evolving. The pre-humans were just in the right place at the right time. That was completely random. What if the monkeys were at that spot? Then they most likely would have evolved. This "right place" can mean any variety of things, from "we were closer to the water hole when the drought hit", or "we were closer, so we picked up the rock and slanged it at the rabbit, which then died because of the impact. Whoa, idea!" If the monkey were closer to that rock, he would have picked it up and he might have slanged it just like the pre-human did. He might have hit that rabbit, and he might have said "Whoa, idea!" and he might have tried it over and overm seeing that it worked every time, then he finally told others, then they invented the first weapon, then they went on a hunting trip, then they picked up a stick that was pointy on the end, they threw it, it hurt..........
You get the idea? ANyone could have picked up that rock, but we were closer. Completely and utterly random. It could have been very different--only a few feet were the difference.

Note: that is a completely hyothetical situation, but the Discovery Channel could use it, I'm sure...

EIDT:

That life evolved is not random

Holy Jesus, why didn't you say that before!? That statement makes perfect sense. Life would have evolved, no matter which way it got there. I just typed that scenario up for no obvious reason! Holy crap! It's about time you made it understandable.

Let me highlight that one sentence: Life would have evolved, no matter how it got there.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry Dan, I just don't see how lightning hitting a pool of amino acids isn't random.

It isn't. It's a natural consequence of the chemical composition and formation of the universe. That it happened when it did, or on which particular lump of minerals, or in which particular solar system is random. But that it happened somewhere is not.

Random is a strong word. It basically means " Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely" although mathematically you can get more detailed and there are types of random processes (dont' confuse the word process here with the way I use it generally).

Even if you could look at the entire universe and calculate a probability of lighting hitting a sea of amino acids somewhere in the universe - it still wouldn't be random because all outcomes are not equally likely (unless the likelihood of it occuring was exactly the same as it no occuring).

The above is a strong case, but it's a technical one. What I'm about to say is not as strong a case, but it's more straight forward.

If you looked at the entire universe I'd be willing to place money that the probability of life occuring was almost exactly 1 (ie: there is almost no chance it would not happen).

Edit: This is the part where Famine and I get into a long discussion about the definition of random.

Edit#2:

Basically I'll I'm saying is that the makeup of the universe leads to life, and the logical consequence of life is intelligent, complex life. Hell, if I understood chemistry better I could probably say that the chemical composition of the universe is a direct consequence of the nature of subatomic particles. The fundamental questions we're really left with is "where did it all come from and why is it here?"

 

[ledhed]

Picking a religion to belong with / to is not random ? Or is it just because of the random nature of geography that determines what religion a person belongs to . Did God decide to randomly create a bunch of different religions ?
Being born into a rich vs. poor family is random or did God juts decide that you deserve the poor family or they deserve you ?
If anything is random it seems to GOD / Sphagetti monster /.Budda / Allah etc.

 

[Famine]

Edit: This is the part where Famine and I get into a long discussion about the definition of random.

Not at all. I agree with you.

Evolution does have a designer/planner - and that designer/planner is evolution...

No change to a species is "random", otherwise phenomena like divergent evolution (same characteristics appearing in different species, having evolved from intermediate, unrelated species) wouldn't exist. Primordial Soup wasn't random - it was a natural consequence of the Earth's structure at that time, as was the lightning Swift mentions.

 

[Swift]

Picking a religion to belong with / to is not random ? Or is it just because of the random nature of geography that determines what religion a person belongs to . Did God decide to randomly create a bunch of different religions ?
Being born into a rich vs. poor family is random or did God juts decide that you deserve the poor family or they deserve you ?
If anything is random it seems to GOD / Sphagetti monster /.Budda / Allah etc.

There is one faith, but man has made many different gods.

Anyway, I believe all things happen for a purpose and that we are not always able to see that purpose. If you want to call that random, fine. But it's no less random then saying one day, with just the right situation, life was created. Yeah, that's random.

 

[Keef]

Life would have created itself no matter what. Chemicals react in certain ways which aren't random and can't be changed. It just happens that way.
Now, the kind of like that evolved was random, I believe. That's where environment comes in. There are all sorts of phenotypes that would work well underwater, for instance, but life came across the first one that worked, and they stuck with it. They didn't feel like sitting around for the next innovation that made sense.
It's like your finger prints. They don't seems necessary at all, though they help a little when your skin flexes. But stretchy skin would solve that problem. With stretchy skin, people wouldn't need all these wrinkles, and it would have worked, but the wrinkles came first, so we used it.

 

[Swift]

The funny part about this is that if you do go with the whole evolution thing then randomness has to come into play sooner or later with the creation of our known universe. And of course, that's what this debate really comes down to. Outside of the education arena, that's where this argument ends.

Since there shouldn't be public schools anyway, this shouldn't even be an issue for schools. But that's another thread.

There is an underlying reason that Americans especially don't want to believe in creation of anykind. If you'd like to know what I believe the reasoning is, PM me and I'll let you know.

 

[Danoff]

But it's no less random then saying one day, with just the right situation, life was created. Yeah, that's random.

Swift, substitute the word "inevitable" for random, and I'll be on board.

There is an underlying reason that Americans especially don't want to believe in creation of anykind. If you'd like to know what I believe the reasoning is, PM me and I'll let you know.

I know of a few reasons. I'll bet we have the same things in mind. But I can give you a few reasons why human beings in general latch on to creationism as well.

 

[Swift]

Swift, substitute the word "inevitable" for random, and I'll be on board.



I know of a few reasons. I'll bet we have the same things in mind. But I can give you a few reasons why human beings in general latch on to creationism as well.

Saying that evolution is ineveitble is to say that our universe was inevitable and hence the question comes in, "Where did the universe come from?" So, I'll stick with random.

It was a probability. Like gambling, maybe this time, maybe not, but who knows exactly when certain things are going to happen. That's how I look at evolution as the origin of life on earth.

Dan, I be you do have some of the same ideas that I do.

 

[Danoff]

Saying that evolution is ineveitble is to say that our universe was inevitable and hence the question comes in, "Where did the universe come from?" So, I'll stick with random.

It was a probability. Like gambling, maybe this time, maybe not, but who knows exactly when certain things are going to happen. That's how I look at evolution as the origin of life on earth.

Again, you're getting hung up on when I switched into 3rd gear. Just know that it was going to happen - I was going to shift into 3rd gear. It doesn't matter when, it was bound to happen.

Does it make sense that a sea of amino acids could exist for hundreds of thousands of years without getting hit by lightning (which we have reason to believe was more common at the time)? Does it make sense that a billion years after the Earth formed amino acids wouldn't form? Of course not. Does it make sense that of the billions of solar systems out there, one planet somewhere at some point would have the conditions that get the most basic forms of life going? Of course it does.

Forget about when it happened, or where. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the chemical composition and size of the universe is such that it was going to happen somewhere eventually.