Creation vs. Evolution

[Swift]

SHHESSHH I said LESS chance.



So you agree with evolution. Thank you, case closed.

LOL, I said moving. Man Code, your quicker with the closed button then me. Do you want my reasoning? here it is.

After the flood, Noah's children and ensuing families tried to build a tower incase God flooded the world again. A thing he had already promised not to do. For attempting to build this tower, he confounded their speech and sent them to different parts of the earth.

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

So, that's where I get what I said from.

About that article. The scientists themselves don't even want to call that the missing link. Excellent find for palentolgy though. So what was your point again?

 

[code_kev]

Swift, you blow my mind, you really do.

What about all the terrible inbreeding? Oh I guess it was ok back then...though I'm supprised we havn't died out yet if that's the case.

The point was to prove how families of animals can split apart in to different groups via evolution etc.

Swift, you can quote all you want, but your quoting from a book wrote by people, not God himself, for all you know these people could have just made it all up, and why not, it's reasuring to try and make sense of it all.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

The difference between 6000 years and Billions of years is more than a variation.

The difference between "the world is flat" and the "the world is round" is more than a variation too.

 

[Swift]

Swift, you blow my mind, you really do.

What about all the terrible inbreeding? Oh I guess it was ok back then...though I'm supprised we havn't died out yet if that's the case.

The point was to prove how families of animals can split apart in to different groups via evolution etc

I totally agree that the species of animals may have "evolved" due to their climate. But that fact alone does not validate the evolutionary theory. Sorry.

About the bible. You either prove it wrong with undeniable evidence, not conjecture, or you do your best to prove evolution is correct. Don't say the bible is wrong because man penned it.

 

[Famine]

Famine: OK, I'd go with the super educated guy about the volcano. So, now what?

So, follow through this with me.

You believe an average person from the common era who happens to be an expert in vulcanology when he tells you why a volcano is erupting. You take his opinion over that of an average person some 2,000 years earlier.

You didn't explain why, but I suspect you'd say something along the lines that he's studied volcanoes and used modern technology and research into volcanoes and the reasons they erupt and the guy 2,000 years ago is just saying what he thinks is going on, without any expert knowledge or tools.


Now, I'm an average person from the common era. I just happen to also be a Master's level molecular geneticist. Yet when I tell you that, as an expert in genetics, having studied genetics exclusively for 5 solid years, using modern technology and research into genetics, that you can trace genomic similarities back through generations and use ribosomal rRNA to show that we do indeed share a common ancestor with, most recently, the chimpanzee you don't believe me. Instead you prefer to believe what's written in a book, that we were all created together in one instant.

This book, I remind you, contains NO factual information about any living thing or feature outside Israel, Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Sinai Peninsula - yet covers animals and lands inside this area in quite minute detail - despite the fact that the "God" you think wrote it, through men, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and thus should know quite a bit about the lands around.


Occam's Razor - "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" - Do not needlessly multiply entities. Did men write a book about the lands in which they lived, or did an all-knowing, all-seeing entity responsible for the creation of everything tell the men to write a book and fail to mention anything outside the lands in which they live, despite the subsequent worldwide spread of the religion that grew out of the book?

Q.E.D.


Why are you selective in which modern-day experts you believe compared to 2,000 year-ago authors?

My point about the ignorance was that you first picked Luke. KNOWING that it was a book in the bible and all kinds of dates. So that would of course lead me to think that you were talking about that Luke. I know you can follow that train of though.

So... I knew exactly what I was doing and that makes me ignorant? Going to have to help me out there. Obviously I'm too stupid to understand that particular syllogism.

 

[Duke]

That statment begs the question....where's the middle ground then? I mean intellectually we're leaps and bounds beyond apes and monkeys. So where are the people that are slightly dummer then us?

The so-called "middle ground" has died out. It's not that humans are descended FROM apes. It's that we share a common ancestor.

Apes developed along one path, branching multiple times. We developed along another path, branching fewer times, but still branching. Many species of primates have managed to find an ecological niche that they fit well enough to avoid dying out, and they have evolved equivalently enough that no one species has dominated. Nonetheless there are many species of primates that didn't make that cut.

The same with humans. The earlier branches that were not able to keep up were each winnowed out, and ultimately (so far) homo sapiens has proven to have such a dominance and adaptibility that branches such as homo erectus and homo habilis have died out rather than shifting into other ecological niches.

The difference between "the world is flat" and the "the world is round" is more than a variation too.

I'd like to politely ask you to reply to my comment about the irrelevance of time scales and 'calendars' that I mentioned above. Look for my post about antelopes and T. Rexes.

 

[code_kev]

Damn I really wish I could put my points over in a way that didn't make me sound 12 years old...

 

[Swift]

LOL, Famine. You my friend are as "blinded" by your research as I'm "brainwashed" by my faith in God. That's fantastic. You've got a master's degree. Seriously, anyone that works that hard deserves respect. But just because you research something for 5 years doesn't make it true. But, oh wait, God didn't mentiong EVERYTHING in the bible. Why? Because quite frankly it's irrelevant.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about RNA, that I have a slight understanding of and might be able to follow, and the connections. But until you can put in front of my face, here's the EXACT track of how the universe, galaxy, solar system, planet and life was created it doesn't mean much. And you can't, you've already said that. The bible goes from A to Z like I mentioned. Especially when talking about creation.

I apologize about the ignorant comment. What I should've said was inconsistant or inconsiderate. The use of Luke is what preventing me from answering your question because that immediately connected it to the bible for me. You should've used Bob,

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I'd like to politely ask you to reply to my comment about the irrelevance of time scales and 'calendars' that I mentioned above. Look for my post about antelopes and T. Rexes.

Sorry about that, I missed it.

Why is there NO fossil record of an antelope - or any other mammal at all - dating from the same time as a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

The T-Rex came first.

Remember, it doesn't matter what time scale you use. Both animals should give the same reading on the big 'Time-o-meter', no matter what scale you have the little "units" dial set to... if they coexisted in the Garden of Eden.

The Bible said all animals co-existed? We know this to be impossible. However, if you look at it this way it starts to make more sense:

If one creation day is the equal to millions of years, is it possible that some animals lived, died, evolved during that one day?

In all honesty, it's immensely frustrating to try and explain logic to people who refuse to understand what logic is.

Now you know how I feel in the Drugs and Libertarian thread.

 

[Famine]

[snip]

And yet you'd believe the expert vulcanologist (who one can assume ISN'T "blinded" by his research) over a 2,000 year old account of why volcanoes erupt.

It's selective, Swift, and you know it. You're picking which bits of science you want to believe and ignoring the ones that don't fit with your text. All science is judged on the same level and by the same standards. Why is some of it not worthy of your consideration?

 

[Swift]

And yet you'd believe the expert vulcanologist (who one can assume ISN'T "blinded" by his research) over a 2,000 year old account of why volcanoes erupt.

It's selective, Swift, and you know it. You're picking which bits of science you want to believe and ignoring the ones that don't fit with your text. All science is judged on the same level and by the same standards. Why is some of it not worthy of your consideration?

I'm just sticking with my faith. Something that seems to have escaped your realm of understanding. Call it being selective if you like. But the fact is you can't lay it out for me. You simply can't. So, my question is why should I believe evolution is how everything happened?

I believed as you did that we came from goo a long time ago. But after actually looking into it and hear lots of good info in this thread, I'm more convinced of devine creationg then ever. I'd like to thank you all for that.

I've got to be honest Famine, I really like you. You have your results and you're sticking by them. No matter what and you have the faith that even more proof will come down the line. That takes guts and honor(straight from devil may cry ) Too bad we can't come to an agreement.

 

[PS]

ROFL!!!!! Yeah, black people don't burn or get skin cancer.*snip* So where are the people that are slightly dummer then us?

#1. Blacks have a much less chance of getting burnt or having skin cancer. In fact I know a black person who teases me in the summer by casually going (while at the beach) "black don't burn, baby!".
#2. The slightly dummer people? All around. Who knows, one may be your best friend. In fact, look at the president. He's living proof that we're descendants of apes.

And what's wrong with my avatar? It's neither grisly, nor grotesk (spelt with a K on purpose). It's makeup. If you can't handle that, then no wonder you prefer to just think that *poof* we're made from God (or any other higher power, such as Allah).

 

[Swift]

PS. Get over yourself. I am black and I have burned before. So, don't presume that you know all about that. I also know black people that have skin cancer.

2) You know what I meant. LIke, where are the man/apes. The people that bridged the gap? Oh, they died off...that's convienent. We can't find them or genectic evidence of them, but they were here. That takes some serious faith if you ask me.

About your avatar, it is grotesque and I knew it was makeup. That's not the point. The point is that it's rather jacked in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. So if you don't want to change it, then don't.

 

[PS]

I'm just sticking with my faith. Something that seems to have escaped your realm of understanding.

Just sticking with your faith? Why didn't you just "stick with science" then, back when you believed in it? It's the exact same thing, only faith/science. By "just sticking with it", you've just admitted that you now void all aspects proving creationsim wrong, yet you didn't do the same when you were "saved".

Call it being selective if you like.

It IS being selective.

But the fact is you can't lay it out for me. You simply can't. So, my question is why should I believe evolution is how everything happened?

Why should you believe creationism is how everything happened? Because it's easier? Because it's the lazy way out? Because you're afraid and too proud/arrogant to admit you may have evolved from an ape?

I believed as you did that we came from goo a long time ago. But after actually looking into it and hear lots of good info in this thread, I'm more convinced of devine creationg then ever. I'd like to thank you all for that.

So recanting the fact that the bible has absolutely no credibility or references, or has not adapted to change, or the fact that it has countless discrepencies, it has made you believe stronger in it?

I've got to be honest Famine, I really like you. You have your results and you're sticking by them.

Because they (the results) change, adapt, are peer-reviewed (confirmed) and actually fit a scheme and model that coincides with what we have today, so that it makes sense. That's why he sticks by them. The Bible does nothing of the sort.

No matter what and you have the faith that even more proof will come down the line.

As technology advances, I'm sure it will too.

That takes guts and honor(straight from devil may cry ) Too bad we can't come to an agreement.

Too bad, indeed.

 

[PS]

PS. Get over yourself.

Over myself? Heh, if I were in the same position I know I wouldn't have said that.

I am black and I have burned before. So, don't presume that you know all about that. I also know black people that have skin cancer.

Ok, but do you burn every month in the summer like I do?

2) You know what I meant. LIke, where are the man/apes. The people that bridged the gap? Oh, they died off...that's convienent. We can't find them or genectic evidence of them, but they were here. That takes some serious faith if you ask me.

Um, they're called neanderthals/cromagnon man/homosapiens, each one a different variation of the other in a different stage of development (although I'm not sure what the order is).

The point is that it's rather jacked in my opinion.

You mean to get attention? Well it happens to be because I'm a huge Marilyn Manson fan.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

LIke, where are the man/apes. The people that bridged the gap? Oh, they died off...that's convienent. We can't find them or genectic evidence of them, but they were here. That takes some serious faith if you ask me.

It's not convenient, it's quite sad. Man can be an aggressor, he likes to take things. If there is a species that is not smart enough to learn how to use "sharp pointy sticks" or understand metallurgy then they will be at a severe disadvantage when the species that has learnt how to sharpen a blade comes along to take all the land/food.

You do understand extinction don't you?

Oh there is evidence...from homo erectus to Neanderthal and a whole bunch of other Latin names...oh yes and of course big foot...whoops...I mean Homo ergaster...I think I got away with that one

 

[code_kev]

The people that bridged the gap? Oh, they died off...that's convienent.

That's brilliant. Oh so God created everything...oh THAT'S CONVENIENT!!

 

[Swift]

That's brilliant. Oh so God created everything...oh THAT'S CONVENIENT!!

Actually, it's explained by God. Evolution just says, we think around "this" time there was this type of human and then this type, and then this type.....on and on.

Oh well, From my point of view the word is not fallible. From yours, it makes now sense because it gives the conclusion before worrying about facts. Oh, BTW, what's up with you saying that the bible has no facts behind it? How about all kinds of archeological discoveries, the sheer existance of Jesus, and a host of other things. Man, you can say that you have a problem with the theory of creation but you can't say that there is no proof of anything in the bible.

 

[ledhed]

Swift approach this from another direction . What proof do you have (or know of) to show that the Earth was created by God ? What proof exist that there was ever a garden of eden ? use the same standard of evidence you are using to judge evolution to prove creation . Do you have anything at all ?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

You mean to get attention? Well it happens to be because I'm a huge Marilyn Manson fan.

Surely there are other pictures of him that are less morbid. I think my avatar is more grotesque... Imagine stock prices...

I'd like to politely ask you to reply to my comment about the irrelevance of time scales and 'calendars' that I mentioned above. Look for my post about antelopes and T. Rexes.

I've edited my previous post.

 

[Swift]

Swift approach this from another direction . What proof do you have (or know of) to show that the Earth was created by God ? What proof exist that there was ever a garden of eden ? use the same standard of evidence you are using to judge evolution to prove creation . Do you have anything at all ?

Again, why do I have to scientifically prove something that is not science? I don't ask you to prove why God "couldn't" have created the world and people in a spiritual or scriptural sense. So why should I have to play on the science field?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

How about all kinds of archeological discoveries, the sheer existance of Jesus, and a host of other things.

I beg your pardon!!
Has any of this been published in any reputable journal or magazine?

I read "New Scientist", it is quite a respected publication here in the UK. Incidentally, they had an article that was saying that the age of the earth is a little bit older than the solar system
That's just crazy...there are some very embarrassed scientist on that one, they think they have added an extra nought somewhere

Maybe the solar system wasn't the right colour and had to be replaced at a later date...oh yes...can't wait for the film Hitchhikers Guide to open here 👍 (I loved the books )

(Swift..I suggest you don't watch it..it is blasphemous)

If I was a creationist I would be jumping all over that one, as it ties in with the earth being created before the heavens myth. It is better than "preserved" wood from Noah's ark..or the Turin shroud..or John the Baptists cave (its a cave!!!)

 

[PS]

Again, why do I have to scientifically prove something that is not science? I don't ask you to prove why God "couldn't" have created the world and people in a spiritual or scriptural sense. So why should I have to play on the science field?

Yes, let's make two posts, none of which respond to my previous arguments.

Surely there are other pictures of him that are less morbid. I think my avatar is more grotesque... Imagine stock prices...

Dude, you need to see Dr. Phil, soon.

 

[Swift]

I beg your pardon!!
Has any of this been published in any reputable journal or magazine?

I read "New Scientist", it is quite a respected publication here in the UK. Incidentally, they had an article that was saying that the age of the earth is a little bit older than the solar system
That's just crazy...there are some very embarrassed scientist on that one, they think they have added an extra nought somewhere

Maybe the solar system wasn't the right colour and had to be replaced at a later date...oh yes...can't wait for the film Hitchhikers Guide to open here 👍 (I loved the books )

(Swift..I suggest you don't watch it..it is blasphemous)

If I was a creationist I would be jumping all over that one, as it ties in with the earth being created before the heavens myth. It is better than "preserved" wood from Noah's ark..or the Turin shroud..or John the Baptists cave (its a cave!!!)

Talking about the flood.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A59806-2000Sep12&notFound=true

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html

Talking about biblical peoples
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html


Man made structures talked about in the bible

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a005.html#ot

I'll get more later.

 

[code_kev]

OMG WE FOUND AN OLD BOAT!!!1!! IT MUST BE NOAHS! This is speculation of the worst type.

P.S the boat isn't big enough to house 2 of every animal.

 

[Swift]

OMG WE FOUND AN OLD BOAT!!!1!! IT MUST BE NOAHS!

P.S the boat isn't big enough to house 2 of every animal.

It wasn't "a boat" It was a boat on a mountain. come on man. It's on Mt Arrarat, where the bible says the Ark rested. Am I saying it's 100% sure. Nope, but it's a really big coincidence. Like much of the evolutionary theory.

 

[PS]

It wasn't "a boat" It was a boat on a mountain. come on man. It's on Mt Arrarat, where the bible says the Ark rested. Am I saying it's 100% sure. Nope, but it's a really big coincidence. Like much of the evolutionary theory.

How is anything, anything at all, in the evolutionary theory, a coincidence?

Or are you going to ignore this post, too?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Talking about the flood.
I'll get more later.

Good I need a good laugh

BTW did you read the article yourself...I wasn't aware that the ark sank

the submersible found a collapsed rectangular building 39 feet long and 13 feet wide, "about like a good-sized barn,"

Thats not a boat...it's a barn Read the rest..it is evidence of human occupation!

In the same general area, the submersible identified two old shipwrecks with many intact wooden planks and ceramic amphorae--jars used in ancient times to transport liquids such as olive oil or wine

Oh look two arks!

"Among scholars who take the Bible literally this will be confirmation," said Hershel Shanks, editor of Biblical Archaeology Review. "Critical Bible scholars are almost unanimous in regarding the flood story as a legend. On the other hand, legends arise not out of imagination but from an experience. I don't think we'll ever know what flood that was."

In the article you quote as evidence, they are not even sure what flood it is from

 

[Swift]

PS, how about the fact that it doesn't even explain where everything started.

Tacet Blue: I said it was about the flood. not the Ark. The flood itself.

 

[Wayne Gratiot]

First, I want to apologize somewhat for being so "over the top" with my previous post, but I intended it to be very harsh for good reason. Some of the fundamentalist creation myth proponents on this thread were getting a little too pompous and rude in their comments when confronted with modern day factual scientific knowledge about the overwhelming evidence of how evolution works and also how extremely preposterous the creation myth is. Very, very few people still don't accept evolution as a common fact of life, although there are still many different ideas on how the process actually works. The theories (plural) of evolution all still unwaveringly point to evolution as accepted fact and are just getting all the evidence coming in every day in order which, one day, will become the General Laws of Evolution or something to that effect. Even then, more info will continue to be gathered as evolution is neverending and the laws will be become even precise as time goes on. While this is happening, the creation myth will fall further and further out of the picture as this same info will continue to prove it to be nonsense.

I value the opinions of Duke and Touring Mars and apologize to them for the harshness of my previous post, but would like to point out that Swift is getting everything he dishes out thrown right back at him. He is constantly trying to make fun of and distorting scientific facts that detract from the hard work of scientists like Famine and Touring Mars and just today called Famine ignorant because he was being cornered with no way out. Very funny how hard he trys to avoid the truth when it is pushed into his face repeatedly. What he is doing is much more subtle than my intended "in your face" tirade earlier today, but is no less offensive to those he is trying to ridicule.

If he can keep his misinformation campaign within his church and not attack every valid comment about evolution, then I and others would have no trouble with him. As it stands now, he is a cancer on society and is working against further education about the truth. He will continue to be called on for his lack of knowledge and has to learn to deal with it or educate himself better and see the light.

I can understand why people grasp the warm, comfortable myths of religion because they are scared to die and what will happen to them after that. Thinking that there is more to life after death is a common wish among most people, but a lot of us recognize the facts and realize that the cold harsh reality of scientific discoveries doesn't appear to be leading to a fanciful Fantasyland where everybody lives happily ever after.

Duke, you beat me to it, along with a few others on the monkey fixation and I was going to write some about how we and our "cousins" have all evolved from a common ancestor and are all on our own separate continuing branches, none of us having evolved from each other, but all at the approximate same time and all separately. The fact that the DNA of humans(currently homo sapiens sapiens, but still evolving), chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans are all approximately 98% identical leads only to a common ancestor and evolution as an undeniable fact of life.

In closing, I would like to mention that another poster herein noted that I was much older than he had thought after reading my previous post and then my profile. I also found that I thought he was more intelligent until reading a lot of his posts that disproved that. How ironic.

Back to GT4, I'm only at 91.1% done and only have 713 cars in my garage and want them all. Got to go and thanks for listening. I'll try and be nicer to the fundies too. Hard, but I'll try.