Creation vs. Evolution

[a6m5]

But if man has allways been the same, wouldn't there be evidence? For example, skeletons that show humans as they are now existing so far back. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of years ofc.

That's a good point.

The pope referenence was a bit dodgy tbh, but I just used it as an example of even members of a church, whose holy book is focused around creationism, accepting that evolution is valid.

I understand. I wish I could tell you what I think about a lot of churches, but I won't say anymore on this subject(churches). I don't want to risk offending someone's religion.

I guess that proving it is allmost impossible, the time scales are SO HUGE, and the changes in the species so complicated and subtle, that I probs can't prove a thing.

There is no hard evidence, and that's all I was saying. If there was an hard evidence supporting one side, the other view wouldn't exist today. I believe in creationism, but I sure can't prove it either, it is just my "point of view"(people get uneasy when I call it an "theory" here).

The example I used was horribly crude tbh, this is a very complex issues, and I'm not the smartest of posters at 3.49 am

Why arn't I asleep....tsk

I totally understand. Like I've said earlier, you could be right and I could be 100% wrong, no big deal. Hopefully, we'll find out the answer to this someday. Good night!

 

[High-Test]

I don't think creation should be talked about in a public school, but it is okay to talk about creation in a porochial, sp?, school. I don't think they should talk about evolution in public school either, because not everybody believes in it. They shouldn't talk creation because some people don't want to believe that either. BTW, the US Constitution doesn't split the state and church, it just says that religion can't be taught in a public school.

So you don't want to do something Because it might upset someone? You want to change everything how we base our country on because a hippie in arizona/ Religious firebrand in arkansas is upset by how we teach creationism/ evolution and how the word "god" is in the Pledge of alligience, Declaration of independence, On the Dollar? We shouldn't hold our American schoolchildren back because a parent is offended. Kids can make up their own minds.teachers and our countries' founding documents aren't telling you to be christian/athiest etc, They are just telling why we wanted independence from THe United Kingdom and how we would govern ourselves. Four Years ago, a religious conservative on the Kansas state school board said that evolution was out of the state standards. we were the laughing stock of the nation. It held Kansas teens back. They didn't know much about evolution, and it was on the ACT. Something is wrong.

in fact, Something is totally Bass-ackwards. The people in california who are suing over the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiange want money, Am I right?
Does the United States Dollar, THe Greenback, not have the words, "In God we trust" printed on the back? If they're so afraid of the word "God", then why do they want money? carring documents with the word "god" on them in thier pockets doesn't scare them more than their 4th grader saying the pledge of allegiance at school?

 

[Arwin]

I responded just because I don't think there is a hard evidence supporting the evolution theory. They can show me all the ape(man) skelton they want, that's not an hard evidence that simple lifeforms evolved into human race, in my opinion.

There are several 'hard' types of evidence for evolution theory. One very nice one is to make a map of all plants and animals you dig up, carbon date them and put them in a timeline. Even by just simply looking at the evolution of the skeleton structures over the millions of years shows evolution in action clearly enough, including the evolution from primates to modern day men.

On a much more microscopic level you can simply closely study bacteria or virii up close and see how they quickly change, adapt and survive (or not), in short - evolve. At an even more microscopic level there's the whole DNA/RNA mechanism which is one big proof of evolution at work. Even our economy and culture is one big example of evolution.

But the most important road to understanding is not 'being shown', but actively looking. Just as I understand sometimes hope is more important than science.

In schools though, I'd suggest teaching evolution in science and biology, and if you want discuss creationism in timeslots allocated to social/politics/religion teachings.

 

[Famine]

I responded just because I don't think there is a hard evidence supporting the evolution theory. They can show me all the ape(man) skelton they want, that's not an hard evidence that simple lifeforms evolved into human race, in my opinion.

In fact, there is.

Ribosomal RNA (rRNA) evidence proves that eukaryotic cell organelles originate from prokaryotic organisms - or in simple terms, all the things inside every cell of every living thing which make the cell work were once independant, living organisms (prokaryotes). Simple, single-celled lifeforms are central to the evolution of the eukaryotic cell. The eukaryotic cell is central to the evolution of a multi-celled organism. Multi-celled organisms are everything from yeast to the blue whale.

Every single investigation into the evolutionary pathway kicks up results which support evolution and do not support creationism. Molecular biology is the most convincing of the techniques used.

If there was an hard evidence supporting one side, the other view wouldn't exist today.

Nonsense - indoctrinated folk have long ignored even pointblank proof that their teachings are incorrect. They've even employed people to KILL anyone who suggests otherwise.

The evidence exists to support evolution - so much so that evolution is, frankly, fact. The mechanisms of evolution are essentially proven, although the timeline is subject to the occasional tweak when new skeletons turn up (Homo floresiensis, for example). The other view still exists, despite the evidence.

 

[PhatFat]

i believe in a creation evolution mix. I believe God created the world but nothing about that means I can't belive in evolution too.

 

[Famine]

i believe in a creation evolution mix. I believe God created the world but nothing about that means I can't belive in evolution too.

Key question: WHEN do you believe God created the world?

What living beings do you believe He placed, if any?


I wish people wouldn't say they "believe" in Evolution. It requires no leap of faith. You either agree with it or don't. If you don't agree with it, odds are you've not seen any evidence at all (not necessarily a bad thing - some of it is quite weighty and complex, and most of us don't really need to be bothered with the intricacies of it) or have selectively ignored it, since every piece of scientific research ever conducted in the field has cemented the evolutionary principle.

 

[Schumy]

I'm studying human biology at the Universtiy of Toronto and am currently enrolled in 2nd year courses from various disciplines such as biology, biochemistry, botany and zoology ...I'm always amazed there are people who question evolution ...without evolution, NOTHING in science makes any sense.

My second year bio course is called Molecular Biology of the Cell and it would be hilarious if a Creationist was in one of my labs!! Of course, this never happens because science is all about continous learning and the desire to gain knowledge. It takes many years of dedication to be able to understand the intracacies and complexities of life.

Creationism may be a nice, easy answer for all the people who never had the desire or simply were unable, for various reasons to become educated in the sciences. eg. Do you think an old woman who weaves baskets and lives in a remote village in the Andes could be able to comprehend evolution?? It is too foreign for her not too mention the time scales are enormous. She doesn't know about E. Coli and what goes on in a lab.

Prior to university, I attended Catholic elementary schools and a Catholic high-school ...in high school, the gr.11 religion course was called World Religions. I think it's important to be aware of the various religions as it gives some insight to humankind.

Already, even in a Catholic highschool, evolution can't be ignored in science classes as the school has a responsibility to prime the students that will be furthering their education at universities.

I'm also very happy I was raised as a Catholic for it instilled morals and values into me shaping who I am.

 

[Danoff]

I'm also very happy I was raised as a Catholic for it instilled morals and values into me shaping who I am.

Of course, you don't need religion to be moral.

 

[Schumy]

Of course, you don't need religion to be moral.

you are correct

 

[a6m5]

Thank you for all the evidence of evolution that was posted for me. Problem is, as I've said earlier, there isn't a hard evidence supporting the evolution theory. I am not denying there are some evidences suggesting evolution theory, but just because there is an evidence suggesting something doesn't mean, that any particular theory is true. I respect your opinions regarding the evolution theory, but not one reply in this thread can come up with one hard(concrete or whatever) evidence or proof, that evolution is what happened and everybody else were mistaken. How can you come up with such an evidence? Some of the most brilliant people in the world are still researching and arguing over evolution theory, looking for an answer. Many support all of the theory, some deny the whole theory, some believe parts of it. That is the current state of this theory, and that's not my opinion, it is a fact.

One person noted that without evolution, nothing in science make sense. That also is your opinion, not fact. Personally, I think that is an very closed-minded view. I can respect other people's views, I wish you would too.

Please don't reply with anymore "hard"evidence, because they are not. When there actually is one, we will all hear it on the news.

 

[a6m5]

Nonsense - indoctrinated folk have long ignored even pointblank proof that their teachings are incorrect. They've even employed people to KILL anyone who suggests otherwise.

Seriously? when was this going on(I don't think it goes on today), and who was doing it? Was it some church group?

 

[robertocrx]

the taliban were doing it

 

[Duke]

Thank you for all the evidence of evolution that was posted for me. Problem is, as I've said earlier, there isn't a hard evidence supporting the evolution theory.

[snip]

Please don't reply with anymore "hard"evidence, because they are not. When there actually is one, we will all hear it on the news.

And you're hearing it on the news right now, and dismissing it out of hand. So this conversation is pointless, because you're going to dismiss several billion words' worth of careful scientific analysis in order to protect your preconceived idea.

That's your choice and you're welcome to do that, but don't blame the failure on science.

 

[a6m5]

And you're hearing it on the news right now, and dismissing it out of hand. So this conversation is pointless, because you're going to dismiss several billion words' worth of careful scientific analysis in order to protect your preconceived idea.

No, we are not hearing it on the news. When is "careful scientific analysis" ever 100% on a issue this big.

Please read everything I wrote. I am not dismissing evolution theory. As I've said before, all those "evidences" does not guarantee that the theory is 100% correct. There are many people who are lot smarter than anybody in this forum, who will dismiss the theory. I am not telling you which side is correct here, just saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with the theory, having a different opinion. Many of the researchers who will not go along with the evolution theory are highly intelligent people(same on the other side of the fence) and not some nut cases. They've been studying this for a very long time. Who are you to discredit their work and view. I don't know how old you are, but I bet many of those doctors, scientists, whose beliefs you've so quickly shot down have been studying this matter longer than you have lived.

That's your choice and you're welcome to do that, but don't blame the failure on science.

What failure? When did I blame anything on science? Again, please read my post carefully before you put words in my mouth. I've been interested in science all my life. I love science. Just because I disagree with one theory, I'm ignorant and don't believe in science? Are you aware that many theories usually are argued by many people, and even after we think we know everything about it, there still could be a new discovery that could change our view on it again. Please don't think someone is stupid, just because they don't agree with you.

I apologize for the tone of this reply to your post. I'm getting frustrated because, if I don't support evolution, I'm being treated like an ignorant person. I've repeatedly stated that I am not saying evolution theory is wrong just because I don't share the same view. I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you and the theory. I hope that you can allow me to have my own take on this, as I do for you.

 

[Famine]

Thank you for all the evidence of evolution that was posted for me. Problem is, as I've said earlier, there isn't a hard evidence supporting the evolution theory.

That's the thing. YES, there is.

I'll run through this again for you.

Every single piece of scientific research ever used in the field of evolutionary studies has turned up evidence supporting evolution. All of it. Every one. No exceptions.

Almost all scientific research has a "p" value - or statistical value conveying the chance of observed events being not related to the investigation - calculated. Anything with a p value of less than 0.05 (or 5%) is "statistically significant" - most published research has p values far lower (meaning "highly statistically significant) - and ALL scientific research is peer-reviewed. That means everyone else in the field (or the science community) reads it and evaluates it.

As I've said, Ribosomal RNA evidence tells us clearly that our cells - that's OUR cells - and the cells of every other living being - that's the cells of EVERYTHING alive on Earth today - are made up of components which originally lived independantly on Primordial Earth and evolved to exist cooperatively. The only exception to this is the Archaeabacteria, which ARE the components living independantly (their cells contain no organelles at all - they carry out single functions, just like our cell organelles) Tellingly, the Archaeabacteria are made of the same stuff our cell organelles are, but different stuff to our cells as a whole.

Simple lifeforms beget complex cells beget all life on Earth.


This is concrete, hard, solid, bona fide, immutable evidence that Evolution happened. Do not dimiss it out of hand because you don't understand it. rRNA research PROVES that Evolution occured.

I am not denying there are some evidences suggesting evolution theory, but just because there is an evidence suggesting something doesn't mean, that any particular theory is true. I respect your opinions regarding the evolution theory, but not one reply in this thread can come up with one hard(concrete or whatever) evidence or proof, that evolution is what happened and everybody else were mistaken.

I have. Three times. You've ignored it.

How can you come up with such an evidence? Some of the most brilliant people in the world are still researching and arguing over evolution theory, looking for an answer. Many support all of the theory, some deny the whole theory, some believe parts of it. That is the current state of this theory, and that's not my opinion, it is a fact.

No, it isn't.

If many people supported the whole theory and some believed parts of it, there'd be no research in the field.

Everyone in the field of Evolutionary Science believes that the current evolutionary model is correct for the evidence and research done to this point. No-one accepts that the picture is complete. That's the thing - science (literally "Knowledge") investigates, learns and adapts. Doctrine does not.

The only people in the field who do not believe that the current evolutionary model is correct are Creation Scientists (oxymoron) and proponents of Intelligent Design. They are NOT scientists and really cannot be classed as being in the field of Evolutionary Science, since they already have their model in mind and have been shown to tailor results - and ignore evidence - to make it fit. Their "model" has never changed.

Please don't reply with anymore "hard"evidence, because they are not. When there actually is one, we will all hear it on the news.

It is and we do.


To answer your previous question, yes, the Taliban quite enjoyed it. But also the Catholic Church (then the only "sect" of Christianity) were big on killing, or imprisoning, or torturing people who did not accept, or questioned, Doctrine. qv The Spanish Inquisition.

 

[a6m5]

Famine,

I can see you are definitely getting frustrated with me. Look, I'm not even going to pretend to know on the subject as much as you do. I am, so not qualified to debate with you, and I do believe you are the smartest person here. You do backup your facts, and I appreciate the argument(in a good way). However, I still can not agree with you. Your concrete evidence still is an theory. Test suggests, that evolution theory might be correct. I'm sure it is an concrete evidence to the supporters of evolution "theory". But that's not what hard or concrete evidence means. It still doesn't make the theory facutual or 100% accurate. That is why it is still being debated by people who are more qualified than even you.

The only people in the field who do not believe that the current evolutionary model is correct are Creation Scientists (oxymoron) and proponents of Intelligent Design. They are NOT scientists and really cannot be classed as being in the field of Evolutionary Science, since they already have their model in mind and have been shown to tailor results - and ignore evidence - to make it fit. Their "model" has never changed.

Obviously, you do not believe in God. I'm not going to put you down for your belief, but to say that they are not qualified scientists because they believe in God, is not accurate. Albert Einstein believed in God, so he was not a good scientist? Some people considers him to be one of the smartest man of the 20th century. "Ignoring evidence - to make it fit" I've seen people do that, on both sides. How about regular scientists who raises questions, saying certain things in the evolution theory doesn't add up? One of the articles I read while back was an Harvard University professor questioning the theory. You are certain he was just making stuff up? I don't remember anybody bringing in religion in that article at all.

 

[Goomba]

Famine,

I can see you are definitely getting frustrated with me. Look, I'm not even going to pretend to know on the subject as much as you do. I am, so not qualified to debate with you, and I do believe you are the smartest person here. You do backup your facts, and I appreciate the argument(in a good way). However, I still can not agree with you. Your concrete evidence still is an theory. Test suggests, that evolution theory might be correct. I'm sure it is an concrete evidence to the supporters of evolution "theory". But that's not what hard or concrete evidence means. It still doesn't make the theory facutual or 100% accurate. That is why it is still being debated by people who are more qualified than even you.

I consider a Catholic/Christian God, is a theory.

Obviously, you do not believe in God. I'm not going to put you down for your belief, but to say that they are not qualified scientists because they believe in God, is not accurate. Albert Einstein believed in God, so he was not a good scientist? Some people considers him to be one of the smartest man of the 20th century. "Ignoring evidence - to make it fit" I've seen people do that, on both sides. How about regular scientists who raises questions, saying certain things in the evolution theory doesn't add up? One of the articles I read while back was an Harvard University professor questioning the theory. You are certain he was just making stuff up? I don't remember anybody bringing in religion in that article at all.

I'm not up to date on all of Albert Einstein's theorys and results, but were any of them related to this topic?

 

[Arwin]

Famine,
[snip]
However, I still can not agree with you. Your concrete evidence still is an theory.

Seriously. Did you read the last two paragraphs in my last reply to you?

Albert Einstein believed in God, so he was not a good scientist?

Remember my comment on how I appreciate how hope is sometimes more important than science? Please take that and my advice to separate the discussion of science from belief, as most good scientists - yes, like Albert Einstein - tend to do.

One of the articles I read while back was an Harvard University professor questioning the theory. You are certain he was just making stuff up?

You are just clinging to whatever supports your own belief, which is clear because 'a' harvard university 'questioned the theory' - without you even understanding the discussion at all.

I'm going to state one final time - I understand the importance of hope. I think you understand the importance of science. Even if the evolution was not a fact but a theory (to a certain degree, if you follow the skeptics, there are no facts in the world, only theories, because each individual can only subjectively observe the world outside its brain), it is one of the most important theories in science and should be taught. Creationism, on the other hand, is really only important as a social/religious/political standpoint and should be discussed as such.

 

[Famine]

I can see you are definitely getting frustrated with me.

And how!

Look, I'm not even going to pretend to know on the subject as much as you do. I am, so not qualified to debate with you, and I do believe you are the smartest person here. You do backup your facts, and I appreciate the argument(in a good way). However, I still can not agree with you. Your concrete evidence still is an theory.

Okay. I'll go REAL slow.

Molecular biology says that all multi-celled organisms originate from simple single-celled organisms.
There is no room for manoeuvre - this happened.
Ergo this is concrete evidence that the theory IS correct.

Obviously, you do not believe in God. I'm not going to put you down for your belief, but to say that they are not qualified scientists because they believe in God, is not accurate.

That isn't what I said at all. I know many scientists with an unshakeable religious view.

However, "Creation Scientists" - those who espouse the Doctrine of Creation, using long words - are not scientists. A scientist is someone who devises an hypothesis (and the corresponding null hypothesis), creates a fair test (where applicable), collects ALL evidence created by the test, has it statistically analysed for chance occurences and formulates a conclusion based on the evidence, whether or not it agrees with the original hypothesis. If you set out with a preconceived idea and selectively ignore any evidence or previous works which contradict this idea, you are not a scientist. "Creation Science" is thus a misnomer, since there is absolutely no evidence at all that Creation, as preached by them, occured or that Evolutionary theory is incorrect - yet they set out believing that Evolution is wrong and Creation happened. All the evidence says otherwise.

Albert Einstein believed in God, so he was not a good scientist?

No. Albert Einstein was a mathematician.

Some people considers him to be one of the smartest man of the 20th century. "Ignoring evidence - to make it fit" I've seen people do that, on both sides.

Name them.

This is why science is peer-reviewed.

How about regular scientists who raises questions, saying certain things in the evolution theory doesn't add up? One of the articles I read while back was an Harvard University professor questioning the theory.

Post the article.

You are certain he was just making stuff up? I don't remember anybody bringing in religion in that article at all.

I never said that he was. Questioning the theory is fine - as I said earlier, if it was universally accepted, there'd be no research at all. However, attempting to prove that it didn't happen and Creation did is not science and cannot be proven scientifically - unless you make things up.


I'm fearing that you don't understand the basic difference between Evolution, Evolutionary theory and Evolutionary Mechanics.

Evolution is fact. Evolution happened, is happening and will continue to happen (although humanity is doing its best to stop it in them at least).

Evolutionary mechanics is not totally understood - we KNOW that prokaryotes formed eukaryotic cells and thus all complex life on Earth. Exactly how this happened is conjecture, although invagination seems to be a good concept. Chance mutations forming the basis of new species is better understood, thanks to studies on organisms with very brief generation time.

Evolutionary theory is the basic theory of how we - and all other animals - turned up from previous animals. This is not a complete picture by any means, thanks to the fact that we have next-to-no fossils from the 68% of our planet which is underwater and have only ever managed to bore down about 2km of our 20km thick crust, so really deep and early land fossils are scarce.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

You know, it's now starting to sound funny that everybody is debating on why god exists and they're ignoring one key charactor in the bible: Satan. Yep, The ultimate deciever, The fallen angel, THE ENEMY OF GOD. Whenever I hear athiests ask "if god doesn't exists, why does he let bad things happen," all I do is laugh and shake my head because those questions could be answered so easily it would take no effort, but the enemy (Satan) would fight back and try to feed "facts" into his/her brain, trying to win the debate.

I'll tell you why this question is easily answered: Because basically, this world has been given to the devil until Jesus' return, but he doesn't have full control.
Here's the story:When Lucifer was banished from heaven, God told him "If you think you don't need me, If you think you can be Independent without me, and if you HATE me, I will banish you from heaven and you will be sent down to earth and you can do whatever you please to it, but if you attempt to decieve my followers, you will need my permission. Until I come back to save this earth from the final battle called armageddon, This world will be yours to manage, that is if you think you can be so " independent". And so Lucifer was banished to earth, along with the angels he decieved. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan and the Angels were called Demons. And right now, there time is short. Satan and his followers are desperatly trying to decieve people as we speak, and this topic is where they begin.

Just thought I would post that story just in case you guys didn't know it, 'cause it sounds like you don't.

 

[Famine]

Satan and his followers are desperatly trying to decieve people as we speak, and this topic is where they begin

So let me get this straight.

"Believe in Creation, regardless of any factual evidence to the contrary, or you're evil."

Are you seriously saying that science (from the Latin for "Knowledge") comes from Satan? Knowledge is evil, yet ignorance is divine?

What about stealing money and funding terrorism? Where do you stand on that?

I'm not scared to say that i'm a pirate also and i'm a pirate for one good reason:
Crappy Music cd's from kick butt bands. They put out that cd and say "We're in love with this cd, man! And if we like it, so will our fans." NO, NO, NO! That's not the case at all! Comments like that deserves a little fan rebellion. I won't name any bands, but cd's that sounds like*cough* St. Anger *cough* deserves a little music piracy.

Oh right. Yet science is Satanic, apparently.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

So let me get this straight.

"Believe in Creation, regardless of any factual evidence to the contrary, or you're evil."

Are you seriously saying that science (from the Latin for "Knowledge") comes from Satan? Knowledge is evil, yet ignorance is divine?

What about stealing money and funding terrorism? Where do you stand on that?



Oh right. Yet science is Satanic, apparently.

Please remind me when that post of me being a pirate was posted because some people's beliefs change over time. I was once a Pentecostal Christian, 2 years ago as a matter of fact, and a devout one. I was convinced that god exists, and I still am because it's ridiculous to say that there is no god when the world and everyone in it are going insane and ignores satan in there debates.
Me being a pirate is becoming a thing of the past because it's not really worth it to steal audio files and software program. This is only a temporary thing because yes stealing is against gods law, But the bible states that Not only god, but Jesus loves us so much that he wants us to be free to think about what direction we want to go in. And that's where I am now. But my time is short and I have been questioning my faith for too long. I've got to make
a choice before it's too late. And that applies to all of us. It's either Believer or non-believer. Heaven or Hell. God or Satan.

Scientific evidence isn't the only evidence that is out there. Try looking into prophecy. Read some chapters in the bible that talks about the signs of the second coming of christ. Signs such as "Nation shall rise against nation" and "there shall be false christs" are being manifested right before our eyes. But there are much more than those. I got a web site for you to visit. www.jvim.com. This is a web site based on the "Jack Van Impe Presents" television show, which talks about current events and how they are identical to prophectic signs. Also I keep updated with the news by visiting a very reliable source, which is www.news.bbc.co.uk, BBC World News' web site. there are news reports of these signs occuring very often if you watch them.

So basically i'm saying that you should believe in the creation because the facts are everywhere, but the world doesn't even think of talking about them nor want to, so therefore no-one knows. The evidence can only be researched through PENTECOSTAL christian televison.

Stealing anything is again, an offense to god, but I'm free to repent and search for god and once again be a christian. Why? Because the bible states that God/Jesus loves everyone on this earth.

Funding terrorism is just as worst as killing someone in gods eyes, so I am against that.

Science does not come from satan, But god himself. And satan was created by god, also. Remember that he was once an Angel, but of the highest ranking. His knowledge and rank is only second to God. But God is the Omni-Scient. Satan is not. How could God have created us without it? Satan has overwritten science, and therefore we are all being decieved.

 

[Arwin]

Smoke, I just have to say this once, I'd trade you for a good Samaritan any day ...

 

[Danoff]

Scientific evidence isn't the only evidence that is out there. Try looking into prophecy. Read some chapters in the bible that talks about the signs of the second coming of christ. Signs such as "Nation shall rise against nation" and "there shall be false christs" are being manifested right before our eyes.

Prophecies and scriptures are not evidence. The bible is not proven, so you can't use it to prove itself. Try again.

 

[87chevy]

Taking the Bible as truth, is ridiculuos. That's like: In a few thousand years, when humans come back to earth trying to learn about their history, they find a book, and it's David Koresh's 'I'm the Mesiah', and they believe everyword of it because it's a really old book and the author says he's their savior, so they go back home and the entire human race thinks that David Koresh is their savior.

If I write a book and say that god talked to me and told me to write it would you beleive it?

 

[87chevy]

The evidence can only be researched through PENTECOSTAL christian televison.

your kidding right? what is your definition of evidence??? clearly not the same as the rest of us.

 

[Famine]

Please remind me when that post of me being a pirate was posted because some people's beliefs change over time.

November 24th 2004. Unless you have the attention span of a mayfly, I doubt your "belief" that it's fine to steal from musicians has deviated much.

It's either Believer or non-believer. Heaven or Hell. God or Satan.

"Believe what I believe or you're going to Hell."

Wow.

Scientific evidence isn't the only evidence that is out there. Try looking into prophecy.

"Scientific evidence", whatever that means, IS the only form of evidence there is. Remember, "science" comes from the Latin for "knowledge". Evidence without knowledge is not evidence.

Do you seriously believe that Prophecy is evidence? If so, who is allowed to make prophecies? Is it only Christian prophets (remembering that both the Jews and Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, rather than the Son of God), or do people like Mother Shipton and Michel de Notre Dame get a look in?

Imagining something may happen in the future is not evidence.

Read some chapters in the bible that talks about the signs of the second coming of christ. Signs such as "Nation shall rise against nation" and "there shall be false christs" are being manifested right before our eyes.

Right. Nation has been rising against Nation since Nations first existed (have a quick check into the Trojan wars, the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great) and as for "false christs" (sic)... The Babylonians were worshipping sun gods FOUR THOUSAND YEARS before Christianity existed.

So basically i'm saying that you should believe in the creation because the facts are everywhere

Give me ONE fact - by which I mean FACT, not a story written by four guys about a bloke who could walk on water, written 300 years after he's supposed to have died.

The evidence can only be researched through PENTECOSTAL christian televison.

Look up the term "ascertainment bias". A TV station belching out gospel is not exactly an independant medium, now is it?

My TV will turn on to evangelical tripe when they can pry the remote control from my cold, dead fingers.

Stealing anything is again, an offense to god, but I'm free to repent and search for god and once again be a christian. Why? Because the bible states that God/Jesus loves everyone on this earth.

Ah! Beautiful! You can be a complete bastard and ruin someone's livelihood and just 14 days later pretend you're going to Heaven because you're sorry.

So I'm guessing there's rapist, murderers and child molestors up there in Heaven with you then? I mean, if they say they're sorry, God loves them again. Right?

Funding terrorism is just as worst as killing someone in gods eyes, so I am against that.

Guess what? Evidence (and by this I mean actual evidence, rather than "I just thought it up a minute ago, so it's prophecy") shows that a proportion of funds made from video, music and game piracy goes to fund terrorist activities.

Yet, two weeks ago, you admitted to doing it and being PROUD of it, saying that the bands DESERVED it.

Science does not come from satan, But god himself.

So anything Science says is ture, as it's from God. Unless it says things contrary to the Bible, in which case it's Satan's words? You people still have the capacity to stun me sometimes.

Satan has overwritten science, and therefore we are all being decieved.

To quote God:

"I will banish you from heaven and you will be sent down to earth and you can do whatever you please to it, but if you attempt to decieve my followers, you will need my permission."

(you'd think God would remember the "I before E except after C" rule though)

God is letting Satan deceive us through science. Wow - what a nice guy He must be then.


The Bible also says that the Earth is flat and the whole universe, including the Sun, revolve around it. Do you believe these things too, or are you selective in the parts of the Bible you believe?

 

[code_kev]

So your saying that satan buried dinosaurs!? That seems to be what your saying anyway.

Seriously, if there's a God, I some how doubt that he/she/it would feel the need to play mind games on us just to "test" us.

*thinks of the bill hicks sketch where god is burying dinosaurs*

" MW AHAHAHAHA"

Saying that Satan is some how responsible is the biggest cop out answer this side of cop-out-dom.

The bible was written by people, along time before we had a proper under standing of science, and yes, I know these people are said to have had a "connection" with god, but lets be honest, I could say that I had a connection with god and write a book...

 

[Duke]

So let me get this straight.

Are you seriously saying that science (from the Latin for "Knowledge") comes from Satan? Knowledge is evil, yet ignorance is divine?

Famine: don't forget the story of Adam and Eve. They were banninated from Eden after Eve took the Apple of Knowledge from the Tree of Life, causing humans' downfall by performing the Original Sin.

The implication is right there in flashing neon letters five feet high:

Do not question what we tell you. You are not meant to understand and it is a sin to try. You will be told everything we want you to know.

I figured that out at about age 9, the first time I heard the story told by a Sunday School teacher at my friend's church - and that pretty much set my views on organized religion to this day.

 

[code_kev]

banninated

you sir, have my thumbs up.

you made a good point though.