Creation vs. Evolution

[KieranMurphy]

I want to know how Noah prevent the lions, tigers, crocodiles, velociraptors, tyrannosaurs, etc. from eating the other animals? 40 days is a long time to go without food. And most of those animals above eat nothing but meat... they can't digest plant matter.


KM.

 

[Danoff]

First of all, good work Famine!!!

That looked like it took a long time, but you did a great job of bashing that crap.

Here's my little contribution.

"(6) Proper Orbital Shape --- With a circumference of almost 600 million miles, the Earth's orbit around the Sun is nearly circular in order to minimize extreme temperature variations."

This is supposed to have not been able to have happened by chance. It must be clear that the fact that we're on this planet with a near-circular orbit is the result of divine intervention rather than that life was able to form here as a result of favorable conditions right? I mean, it's too perfect isn't it? Except that why would life develop anywhere that isn't perfect?

But there's more, and this illustrates the way in which all of those points are misleading. This point is supposed to be too conincidental to have happened by chance right? Except that almost every planet and moon in our solar system HAS A NEARLY CIRCULAR ORBIT! Only pluto which is more of an asteroid has a decent eccentricity to its orbit.

Does Venus have a nearly circular orbit? Yes. What about our moon? Yes. What about saturn's rings? Yes. It comes straight out of the way our planets formed. The fact that this guy holds this out as evidence that our planet is too coincidentally perfect for life to have happened on its own is increadibly misleading. He's basically lieing through omission.

Here are the major planet's eccentricities (taken from the Fundamentals of Astrodynamics by David Vallado):

Moon: 0.05490
Mercury: 0.205 (<- that's a semi-decent deviation from circular)
Venus: 0.00671882
Earth: 0.016708617 (<- notice that Venus is more circular)
Mars: 0.093400620
Jupiter: 0.048494851
Saturn: 0.055508622
Uranus: 0.046295898
Neptune: 0.008988095
Pluto: 0.249050 (<- again, that's somewhat eccentric)

Note that the two least massive bodies that are more like asteroids are the ones that have some eccentricity. Every massive body other than those two has a circular orbit. Coincidence? Perhaps it has more to do with the laws of physics and how planets form in the first place.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Wow Famine, that must have taken some time to put together, good stuff.

The pseudo science babble about cells and DNA is just incredible nonsense. You get these dodgy websites putting up whatever gibberish they want, just so it can blindly regurgitated by people and put forwrd as "fact"...

Still....the Noah's ark and the dinosaurs had me laughing for ages ...it might make a good film

And the "its supernatural, we can't understand it.." or see it, touch it, hear it, or find any evidence to support its existence...is as common as the "its complicated, it must have been designed by God"

Scientific proof of the resurrection...pull the other one, the Turin shroud was said to be scientific proof until it was found to be mediaeval. The church have always had tricks to get your attention, from the fingers of saints to pieces of the cross.

Just a small contribution, wasn't it the geologists studying attrition of rocks and not evolution theory that first challenged the creationist view of the world.

They were trying to calculate the rate of erosion on mountains, and how long it would take for a stream, for example, to form a gully, or the rain to score the surface of a rock face.

 

[ledhed]

I would like to know who decided that the Bible was true and that Christianity was the only true religion. I think the other OTHER religions make the same claim, but of course thats satans work and we should'nt ask. The psuedo-science I see at that site is no better than the psuedo science the Nazis used to justify the race policys they used , or that the Japanese used to justify thier experiments on live subjects ...but again I have the answer ! ........Its satans work ! But since I was a little fella and my Grandmom always called me SATAN does that mean that i've been up to no good for all those years without knowing it ? And why am a not rich with a bunch of naked babes crawling around feeding me souls..( at least not on Fridays ) ? I would say thats satans work but I'm sure I didnt do it and my grandmom never lied so it must be true...and its in the bible !

 

[a6m5]

There's a similar situation in China with no evidence that Chinese civilisation was wiped out in about 2000BC.

Are you sure? I'll believe you if you can provide about a billion proof(I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist).

 

[87chevy]

wow, famine it's a good thing we have you around. Who else would go to such lengths? well, maybe 1 or 2 other people. This guy is a blubbering idiot.

How do we know that the Bible was not written by Satan, and that is his greatest deception???

 

[Schumy]

"wow Famine" is right!!! I wouldn't have been able to respond to that website's gibberish in such an eloquent manner. I was just laughing and shaking my head.

I have a few questions/comments....

Did Noah remember to bring all of the microscopic animals? ...because you know, those Gastrotrichs just don't come in king size. They are mostly 200-400 um (that's micrometers for all you non-science folk) which is less than half a mm (millimeter).

Also, many invertebrate species are monoecious (hermaphroditic) so they can self-fertilize as there aren't separate sexes. Did Noah bother bringing 2 Physella johnsoni (a mollusc) or was one sufficient?

What about the Rotifers? Most are parthenogenetic. The males are extremely rare and extremely tiny, essentially are a swimming teste and copulatory organ. Their only goal is to exchange genetic info. Did Noah bother bringing these little guys? They seem a tad redundant given that the female clones herself by producing a diploid (2n) egg and can produce a male by a haploid egg in meiosis.

Speaking of Rotifers, they are extremophiles and are capable of Cryptobiosis (as are Tardigrades). They are active only when water is present and when dormant, they dry up and their metabolism slows to 0.01% of normal activity. They can remain in this state for atleast a decade! Also, extreme temperatures (-200 degrees C to +150 degrees C) don't seem to bother them. They are capable of surviving immersion in liquid helium (-272 degrees C) or immersion in absolute ethanol. Rotifers have recovered from near absolute zero (0.008 degrees K)!!

The Rotifer/Tardigrade is a nice example to illustrate what Famine mentioned earlier ...that the tolerances for life are extremely broad and the ONLY known prerequisite for life is WATER!

 

[KieranMurphy]

Imagine having 2 Apatosaurs, 2 Brachiosaurs, 2 Diplodocuses, 2 Argentinosaurs etc. etc. on that wooden ship a few hundred feet long.

If anyone wants to see how unscientific the story of Noah's Flood really is, check out the following page:

Dr. Marty Leipzig looks at the mathematics of 'Noah's Flood.'


KM.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Imagine having 2 Apatosaurs, 2 Brachiosaurs, 2 Diplodocuses, 2 Argentinosaurs etc. etc. on that wooden ship a few hundred feet long.

KM.

Ahh yes...but those Creationist muppets will tell you thats why there aren't any dinosaurs any more..they didn't fit on the boat

Its a new one on me the flood theory wiping out dinosaurs, the usual explanation (because the existence of fossils millions of years old obviously challenges their young earth theory), was to say that fossils were "fake"....oh... denial is a wonderful thing

 

[KieranMurphy]

Ahh yes...but those Creationist muppets will tell you thats why there aren't any dinosaurs any more..they didn't fit on the boat

Is that in the BIble though?

And God said unto Noah "Take two of every unclean animal and two of every clean animal, uh, except those big scaly feckers. **** them. They can drown. They were only an experiment anyway. "


KM.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence and let's focus on the, Punshment(beating), Crucifixion, Death, and Burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Give me credible evidence that one man COULD HAVE taken all of the Punishment he went through. And after that, let's debate on Prophecy. And finally, the Antichrist.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if Famine WAS the Antichrist!

BTW, Neon_Duke, I've got other things to worry about than this Thread. Responding to posts the way I am is normal.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Give me credible evidence that one man COULD HAVE taken all of the Punishment he went through.

Give me credible evidence that any of that ever happened

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

Then why is Jesus' death is in history, but the suprenatural events ignored? Try actually
going to israel before making comments like that. If the stories of the bible are false then why is such land marks as the temple mount and the Red Sea currently exist?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Then why is Jesus' death is in history, but the suprenatural events ignored?

Jesus's death is in the Bible..not history..its not in the Quran or Buddhist scriptures or Taoist writings or even any other religous text..

If the stories of the bible are false then why is such land marks as the temple mount and the Red Sea currently exist?

Yes you've got it now...they are stories, not fact.
Those places were named by men.
Oh and check your interpretation of the Bible because now most scholars think it was the REED sea..not the Red sea..oh well...

Buddhism is a far older religion, but you choose to ignore it, as it suits you.

How can Famine be the Antichrist AND one of the four horseman...

 

[Sage]

OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence [...]

Translation: I can't handle all of the evidence presented again me, so I'm going to wander to a different topic instead of accepting defeat.

 

[Danoff]

If the stories of the bible are false then why is such land marks as the temple mount and the Red Sea currently exist?

The people who wrote the bible wrote stories about places they'd been or lived.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

tacet_Blue,
Because the AntiChrist will be Human form when he has revealed himself . How else will satan decieve the WHOLE world in the coming years that god doesn't exist? Keep in mind that Satan is second to God in terms of rank (Intelligence, Supernatural Power, etc.), so anything he can do or say will get us to believe that god is not real and he is the one true god, but god is alot better. The only difference is that he is not omni-potent, or omni-scient.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, when the AntiChrist does reveal himself, He will be an ordinary human, but has all of the know-how to deceive the masses.

ANOTHER EDIT: Actually, christianity has existed before jesus' time on earth.
Read and RESEARCH THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

Translation: I can't handle all of the evidence presented again me, so I'm going to wander to a different topic instead of accepting defeat.

I am truely defeated when I see not one person coming from the European Union
that establishes a Seven Year World Peace Agreement and clames that he is god.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

EDIT: As a matter of fact, when the AntiChrist does reveal himself, He will be an ordinary human, but has all of the know-how to deceive the masses.

Someone sure deceived you

(love the "matter of fact" reference, are you sure its not a matter of blind faith and religious dogma)

Edit: I'm off out now, if I see Satan, I'll say Hi to him for you. And earlier I met God, did you know that she is black

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

Someone sure deceived you

(love the "matter of fact" reference, are you sure its not a matter of blind faith and religious dogma)

Edit: I'm off out now, if I see Satan, I'll say Hi to him for you. And earlier I met God, did you know that she is black

very funny, very, very, funny.
Goodbye and I hope you have a good day!

 

[Schumy]

knowledgeable: possessing or showing knowledge or intelligence; perceptive and well informed.

💡 Smoke_U_24/7, is there any possibility that you are simply not that knowledgeable?

 

[KieranMurphy]

OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence and let's focus on the, Punshment(beating), Crucifixion, Death, and Burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Give me credible evidence that one man COULD HAVE taken all of the Punishment he went through. And after that, let's debate on Prophecy. And finally, the Antichrist.

Dude, you are aware that most professional historians know next to nothing about the life of Jesus. The earliest of the Gospels was written in 70AD, that's about 40 years after he died.

There's no corroborating evidence that Jesus' death was the way it was described in the Bible. There's no proof whatsoever that he was resurrected 3 days later. You can believe it all you want, but historians and serious Biblical scholars know that it's far from being a historical fact.

Do some research man.


KM.

 

[KieranMurphy]

If the stories of the bible are false then why is such land marks as the temple mount and the Red Sea currently exist?

Are you serious?

I'm Irish, right? There's an ancient Irish legend about this guy called Cu Chullain. He was awesome. He single handedly defeated entire armies. His father was a Celtic God who impregnated his mother. And the stories about him are full of places that actually exist near where I live.

Are you saying we should believe these ancient myths because they mention real places?

Greek legends, Egyptian legends etc. Plenty of them mention places like Athens, Cyprus, the Nile River, etc. Do you believe them?


KM.

 

[KieranMurphy]

As a matter of fact, when the AntiChrist does reveal himself, He will be an ordinary human, but has all of the know-how to deceive the masses.

That's not a matter of fact, that's a matter of your personal religious opinion.


KM.

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

Dude, you are aware that most professional historians know next to nothing about the life of Jesus. The earliest of the Gospels was written in 70AD, that's about 40 years after he died.

No, the earliest scriptures that where found! Do you really believe that those historians found all of the scriptures of the bible? There has been pages and books of the bible that have been lost in the sands of time, so that info is not credible. The books in the bible are only the ones that are nessesary for us to be taught about how to properly and safely live our lives. Just before Jesus resurrected to heaven, his disciples where immediately told by him to spread the word of the gospels to the whole world. The gospels where written even when jesus was alive and well. Again i say, READ THE BIBLE.
You people are hopeless, though so I don't even know why I'm wasting time in this thread.
btw, us pentecostal's are not a people of religion. we are people of faith.

Goodbye.

 

[Famine]

OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence

No, let's not. Remember - science = knowledge. It's the meaning of the word, bub.

and let's focus on the, Punshment(beating), Crucifixion, Death, and Burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Give me credible evidence that one man COULD HAVE taken all of the Punishment he went through.

I can't. There is no evidence that one person could take that much torture without dying - but, according to the Bible, he DID die, so that's alright then.

Give me credible evidence that any one person can take the punishment any one of Arnold Schwarzenegger's characters goes through in the course of a normal feature film.

What's that you say? "But that's only a story". Bingo!

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if Famine WAS the Antichrist!

Well, bugger. You got me. Still, it's good to be accused of being second only in intelligence to God. He'd better watch his back though.

Responding to posts the way I am is normal.

For a given value of normal. Which is "bizarre".

The books in the bible are only the ones that are nessesary for us to be taught about how to properly and safely live our lives.

What a stroke of luck! Finding all the ones necessary for you, but losing all of the unnecessary ones. So, as well as ignoring scientific evidence which doesn't fit in with your religion's world view, you're now ignoring chunks of your holiest book - which may or may not exist - as "unnecessary". Genius!

The gospels where written even when jesus was alive and well.

No, they weren't. The four Gospels post-date Jesus' supposed time by between half a century and three centuries. No currently-known book of the Bible was written between 4BC and 33AD, when Jesus is supposed to have lived.

Again i say, READ THE BIBLE.

You forgot to add "BUT ONLY THE BITS WE DEEM NECESSARY!".

 

[KieranMurphy]

No, the earliest scriptures that where found! Do you really believe that those historians found all of the scriptures of the bible? There has been pages and books of the bible that have been lost in the sands of time, so that info is not credible.

Luke, Mark, John and Matthew. Historians know for a fact that these guys lived after Jesus. It's not controversial. Christians of all sorts of denominations know this. It's a known fact that the Gospels were written at least decades after Jesus lived. Even leading Christian scholars know this. They accept. Nothing I am saying about the dates of the Gospels is controversial or strange. It's only people who have never bothered to read about the Bible's history who post things like you do.

I challenge you to find a reputable professional Biblical scholar who claims that either Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote their Gospels while Jesus was alive.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

The following are mostly the date ranges given by the late Raymond E. Brown, in his book An Introduction to the New Testament, as representing the general scholarly consensus in 1996:

* Matthew: c. 70–100 as the majority view, with conservative scholars arguing for a pre-70 date, particularly if they do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
* Mark: c. 68–73
* Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85
* John: c. 90–110. Brown does not give a consensus view for John, but these are dates as propounded by C K Barrett, among others. The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition

Why don't you quote me some articles or literature which shows that Biblical scholars think that the Evangelsits wrote their Gospels during Jesus' lifetime. That's my challenge from me to you.

I think you just made up your above post off the top of your head.


KM.

 

[Schumy]

Smoke_U_24/7, you keep discrediting yourself by the silly statements you are making.

saying things like "OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence" portray you as a VERY irrational person. You are clearly unappreciative of science.

I'm interested to know if any of the responses directed to you have even registered in your head or do you simply dismiss any sort of logic/fact/evidence that would question your faith? Please, I'm very interested to know!

 

[ledhed]

He's already on record as saying that science is a tool of the devil 's and only meant to decieve us about Satans true plans....so I guess we should discount science if you follow that logic. BTW..I am satan my grandmom told me so...so take what I say with a grain of salt....I have a dude in my basement..he's a real "pillar " of the comunity..I have lots of salt ...hehehehehehe BWAAAAHAHAHA !

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

I challenge you to find a reputable professional Biblical scholar who claims that either Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote their Gospels while Jesus was alive.

Go find some yourself.

Smoke_U_24/7, you keep discrediting yourself by the silly statements you are making.

saying things like "OK, let's get off of Scientific evidence" portray you as a VERY irrational person. You are clearly unappreciative of science.

I'm interested to know if any of the responses directed to you have even registered in your head or do you simply dismiss any sort of logic/fact/evidence that would question your faith? Please, I'm very interested to know!

Of Course I have, But I just based my debates on the words of the bible and not
science because many christians have not studied science on the level that you guy's have, and I wasn't any exception when I was a christian. In school, I hardly paid attention to my science teacher (an athiest, btw), and was very
lazy in class, so I'll confess that I haven't studied science no where near the level you guy's have, and when I stepped into this agument, the only thing I wanted to
know is if you guy's even knew about Satan's plan's and Intelligence that was told in the stories in the bible. But hey, that doesn't qualify for the debate, now does it?
So I'll confess that I lost the argument and I am more convinced that god is not real. I shouldn't have joined in this debate in the first place. But that's a big duh, right?