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- swift-bass
PS
That's like giving a child that throwing a tantrum a toy anyway. It defeats the purpose. So, I'm actually being the bigger person by not going down to his level but avoiding his comments and not calling him names.
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter ledhed
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That's like giving a child that throwing a tantrum a toy anyway. It defeats the purpose. So, I'm actually being the bigger person by not going down to his level but avoiding his comments and not calling him names.
- 3,802
Enough is enough? Oh come off it, the "ignoring because he was mean to me" excuse is so old, it's an obvious attempt at avoiding difficult questions.
Have my beliefs changed? Nope, I believe that I believed before, but only more so.
Welldone swift, I now view you as "the bigger person". The way you ignore the difficult questions only further enhances my opinion of you being "the bigger person" out of the two of us. I hope that one day I can ignore scientific evidence, and believe made up rubbish in the same way you do, so I can also be a "the bigger person".
Some people may call me obnoxious, arrogant, mean, etc, but I don't see why I should have to pretend to respect beliefs that I find utterly disgusting. I'd rather give an honest opinion. It's strange, when this thread started, I kinda respected Creationists to a degree, I now view them as...well as a word I possibly couldn't say here.
This thread will change no one's opinion.
- 4,459
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- GTP_Grand_Prix
It changed my opinion. Sure, I still accept evolution, but I've now seen what the other side of the fence looks like.
EDIT: Whoops, put creation in there instead of evolution.
EDIT: Whoops, put creation in there instead of evolution.
- 10,116
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- swift-bass
code_kev
You still don't get it. It's not about the questions. It's about, "You're a fundie, so you're stupid" attitude. Man, you can check yourself anytime.
Also, you don't have to respect beliefs to respect people.
- 1,620
My understanding (I won't use the word belief as its not valid to an evolutionist) hasn't been altered in the slightest by this thread. Thats because I can't be convinced of evolution as the better theory (compared to anything else) any more than I already was (before reading this thread).
Creationism as a theory is complete idiocity. The people that believe in it? Make of them what you will...
I agree with and understand how Code is behaving. Sometimes its fine to be a bastard, as long as you're an honest bastard and a fair bastard. 👍
It shakes things up a little and helps get people thinking just a tad. No creationist has even answered his (quite pertinent) question.
Its just very frustrating to get zero real acknowledgement of what scientists have worked out, without getting any rational arguments for creationism. Its a one horse race guys, and its fascinating to see otherwise intelligent people (going by how people talk, phrase themselves in posts etc) try and justify plainly ridiculous tall stories. Why? Fear of the confirmation of their stupidity by changing sides? Is it just a pride thing? Creationists are just scared to be wrong?
There's some people on the evolution side of the pool, and some on the creationism side. Those on the creation side are just too worried to get into any serious debate going without being offended as they start getting their feet wet... I realise it must be really hard psychologically to sway your position away from that of a proud believer after being so 'faithful' for so long... I mean- who wants to own up to being such a sucka/fool for their whole life? Not many, I bet. I can understand the reluctance, but I thought people were capable of a little more logic after all the stark facts were presented to them.
It would take a lot of balls to stick it to God and all he represents (creationism, prospect of going to heaven etc) but it would be a noble action on the way to true understanding. Don't worry, God won't be offended, he only exists in some people's minds. If you're not offended, 'He' won't be!
Okay let the 'debate' continue...
Creationism as a theory is complete idiocity. The people that believe in it? Make of them what you will...
I agree with and understand how Code is behaving. Sometimes its fine to be a bastard, as long as you're an honest bastard and a fair bastard. 👍
It shakes things up a little and helps get people thinking just a tad. No creationist has even answered his (quite pertinent) question. Its just very frustrating to get zero real acknowledgement of what scientists have worked out, without getting any rational arguments for creationism. Its a one horse race guys, and its fascinating to see otherwise intelligent people (going by how people talk, phrase themselves in posts etc) try and justify plainly ridiculous tall stories. Why? Fear of the confirmation of their stupidity by changing sides? Is it just a pride thing? Creationists are just scared to be wrong?
There's some people on the evolution side of the pool, and some on the creationism side. Those on the creation side are just too worried to get into any serious debate going without being offended as they start getting their feet wet... I realise it must be really hard psychologically to sway your position away from that of a proud believer after being so 'faithful' for so long... I mean- who wants to own up to being such a sucka/fool for their whole life? Not many, I bet. I can understand the reluctance, but I thought people were capable of a little more logic after all the stark facts were presented to them.
It would take a lot of balls to stick it to God and all he represents (creationism, prospect of going to heaven etc) but it would be a noble action on the way to true understanding. Don't worry, God won't be offended, he only exists in some people's minds. If you're not offended, 'He' won't be!
Okay let the 'debate' continue...
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Zardoz
When I started this thread I was still trying to keep and open mind reguarding I.D. . In fact thats the biggest reason for the thread , I wanted to see what made anyone think it should be taught as a subject in school . I felt I must be missing something very important if the subject had enough gravitas to be considered as part of a school curriculum .
Well needless to say I have gotten an eye opener . It turns out that I.D. is just a smokescreen for the evangelicals to get religion back into school where they think it belongs. Its just politics by another method .
I also was suprised by how many people still belive literaly in the garden of eden..the ark and other amazing stories that I had long ago figured to be alagory in nature . I have still seen no rebutal for the fossil record that shows the EVOLUTION of homo erectus to modern man over hundreds of thousands of years . It also shows the variation of homosapiens from eskimo to scandanavian to asian to American Indian .Yet in spite of all the evidence a stubborn clinging to the literal meaning of the words in the book still persist .
If anything this thread has made my position more solid on the evolution side of the argument and has me questioning religion in general .
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- GTP_TheCracker
👍 Thats good ledhed - can we close this thread or let it die of natural causes now? - i think i can hear the death rattle of the creationist theory (fairy tale) side of the arguement.
Danoff
Premium
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James2097
I really don't think this is fair.
Creationism is not complete idiocy, it even makes some sense when you listen to Pako and Swift talk about their views. It's almost certainly incorrect in just about every aspect, but their view actually makes more sense than I had originally thought it would. I much better understand how people can get caught up in creationism.
Is it ludicrous to look at complex beings and think that they must have been designed? It is ludicrous to look at the laws of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics and think that they must have been put it place? I don't think so.
I have two main problems with creationism.
1) It ignores scientific evidence. Skepticism is ok, but when science works (yes we use evolution) AND makes so much sense, I don't think it's wise to simply turn away.
2) It doesn't even answer the fundamental question: "Where did all this come from?" You can't answer that question by saying "It came from this other thing." because you haven't answered anything.
Some people will look at my second point and say that science doesn't answer that either. My answer is that scientists don't have to. Their answer is "we don't know", something religious people don't have the luxury of saying.
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- swift-bass
ledhed
You mean the one with the huge gaps and the missing links that no credible scientist would say that they "know"?
Nope. Actually, you've very much strengthened it. Thanks!
Religion, religion is bad. But you've help my spirituality immensely.Well, I'm glad we were able to enlighten your viewpoint a bit. 👍
BTW, I don't know a lot of things. Like why whales have legbones. Or the exact reason why we don't need our appendix, toncils and adnoids but most every human is born with them. See(broken record time here) I'm not saying evolution doesn't happen or isn't possible. I'm saying that evolution, for the explaination of the origin of species, is simply not what I chose to as a way for humans to come about on this planet.
James2097
They said the same thing to Columbus and his views of the spherical earth. Now we have a national holiday for him. They said the same thing about trying to live in the "new world". Now America is the most powerful nation on earth. They said the same thing about the founding fathers of America. They are now immortilized on money, history lessons and monuments. They said man would never break the sound barrier, now we have jets that can do it at will. I could go on....
My point is that hindsight is 20/20. At the time, those people looked incredibly shortsited, stupid, closeminded, radical or even treasonous. Now, they are considered heros by most people.
Think of that the next time you classify an entire people for their opinion.
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- swift-bass
danoff
Ok, see. The bible doesn't give an exact amount of time for the garden of Eden. For all I know, Adam and Eve could've been in there for a few millenia.
My point is that I know that God created man on the 6th day. However, I honestly don't believe it was a literal week in which God created the heavens and the earth. Especially since animals came long before humans.
All I'm saying is I do believe in the story of creation as told in Genesis. I don't believe God only took 168 hours to do it all. Especially since hours are judged by the moving spinning of the earth in relation to the sun and the sun was created last. So, to say it was six literal days makes no sense.
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Hence why it is fascinating to see otherwise intelligent people (all other aspects of their lives - as far as I can tell) get so flumaxed by trying to defend something that gives no real evidence beyond the thought that things seem to work nicely here on Earth. To their credit they kept the debate going a long time, but ultimately didn't land a blow of any importance. Creationism is a cosy theory (appealing to a mortal human looking to think there is a grand plan, that they have a purpose etc), and was kind of logical when we didn't have any other evidence to the contrary (a LONG time ago, when we really knew nothing much...). But in modern times, new evidence has come to light and its like some creationists are still singing their hearts out but the band has stopped... In a bid for scientific credibility the theory evolved to "intelligent design", which is a sneaky way of talking about it in the most general of terms whilst dumping all the embarrassingly un-scientific religious stories that go hand-in-hand with being a traditional creationist.danoff
Intelligent design? Yep, we ARE designed intelligently, because we've evolved to be a successful species! Who is the intelligent designer though? The environment coupled with the combined intelligence of everyone! In effect, we could hypothetically change our environment/choose only certain humans to breed etc and if we did this in a consistent way over millions of years, we would be able to choose how humans evolve and what into... In effect, EVERYONE IS GOD in their own very small way. We all have a (VERY) small impact on how the human race progresses... and thats not getting into genetic engineering
.In terms of things just 'seeming' like they have been designed well... here's the thing: everything HAS been designed well, by virtue that any species that doesn't suit it's environment dies off and the successful species goes well and adapts appropriately. The fact that things seem to be designed so well is at the heart of why evolutionist theory makes sense!
In terms of physics, there are completely consistent formulae explaining how most stuff interacts... mathematics/chemistry/physics etc can be quite beautiful to observe, but it doesn't have a mind of their own (no matter how complex)! Its our own human perception of our environment that wants to romanticise our observations and think things must be the work of God... I mean a sunset is just a whole lotta light coming through an awful lot of our atmosphere/clouds at a tangent to the side of the Earth, which changes the colours into rich yellows/reds/purples, which we find beautiful, because humans just make that connection, maybe we associate those colours with other things that are positive in our lives, or what the sunset means to us (time to relax and go to sleep). Just because we enjoy certain natural things that physics dictates will happen, it doesn't mean God had anything to do with creating those things. Its pure physics, and can be explained as such. Another planet somewhere else probably has some real knockout sunsets/beaches/mountains/rain-forests etc etc but no people (or any thinking animal) around to 'appreciate' the beauty... it will happen regardless.
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James2097
Bingo!
That's what's going on, folks. Life develops in ways that work better, because that's the only way it can develop! How can it do otherwise? Life forms cannot develop in ways that don't work! If a mutation creates a characteristic that puts a life form at some sort of disadvantage, the environment quickly selects that characteristic right out of the picture.
If the mutation creates a characteristic that gives the life form a slight advantage, then the life form does a little better, lives a little longer, and makes more babies that carry that characteristic. Over time, that slight increase in the percentage of offspring carrying the new characteristic (like slightly longer necks that enable an animal to reach food that others can't get to) has the effect of spreading throughout the gene pool and changing the whole species over time.
This is the only way things can possibly work, isn't it? That's what evolution is all about. Species can only evolve in ways that increase their chances for survival.
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Swift
In creationism's case though, validation will NEVER come. This is not debatable, it has no credibility when subjected to ANY kind of intelligent investigation. The only slightly topical example in your post was Columbus' spherical earth thing, and he was disproving the church's idea! He was validated quite quickly because he made sense, and his idea could be extremely easily proven (many other cultures prior to Columbus knew the Earth was round - he was hardly the first to know this obvious fact). The church was also pushing flat-out stupid ideas (it made no sense that the sun went around the Earth and not the other way around - but the truth didn't fit their idea that the Earth should be the centre of the universe...).
This same kind of illogical thought is still the case today. Creationism simply makes no sense, yet the church holds on and will look increasingly stupid as we learn more about the world, until everyone just accepts that evolution is right (the people who understand it simply know this for sure already) and the church has to admit its full of crap, just like the earth going around the sun thing. There will be a time where the mainstream understanding of evolutionary theory is such that even the most illogical of people will laugh that anyone ever thought creationism made sense!
Its just a matter of time, one day you will even admit you were wrong. I am being generous assuming you've got enough logic/rationality to be able to change opinion, if given a massive swag of evidence that directly disproves creationism.
I'm still intrigued as to why you would go with a theory that has zero evidence to back it up (and one that most smart people just laugh at!), while evolution has lots of real world physical evidence to back it up and many more intelligent people agreeing with it. You see, we don't have religion getting in the way, so the only thing we can make a decision on is LOGIC. There is no other motive here! That wasn't the case when Darwin was getting vilifyed by the church and when Columbus was also not thought of highly by the church. Gallileo was also completely validated later, but was also vilified by the church. He had to retract his entire idea and say he was wrong - just in order to not get hung! Basically, the church's kooky ideas are never validated, and theories that are actually correct and based in logic/observable evidence always win out, and in a relatively short period of time from when they were theorised. Things that are based in logic get validated quite quickly, because they just MAKE SENSE!
I'm sorry but religious ideas about how things work NEVER get validated in a scientific way (ie the truth).
All the other examples (other than Columbus) you mentioned had no relevance to your argument, other than trying to give you hope that one day creationism will somehow be validated (sorry, it won't). Given that Charles Darwin was thought to be totally crazy (by religious people - "How dare you say we came from monkeys! I have a way too high opinion of myself to want to to believe that!!") and vilified by the church, but his theory of evolution is now understood to be 'the way things work' by most logical people. If anything is gonna be validated in the mainstream to 100% acceptance, its gonna be evolution (already validated among scientists and most smart people).
Considering the church's record of being consistently disproven and possessing an idea validation record of a whopping 0%, I think you're living in the wrong century if you hold out any realistic hope of creationism being validated as truth! A new theory or person always comes along and disproves the old entrenched religious idea and makes the church look stupid. This has been the case with many ideas, and is the case this time also. Creationism is LONG OVERDUE for a complete discrediting. Its surviving on borrowed time.
I simply can't believe how blase and defiant you are - its really akin to saying 2+2=5, in the face of a mathematician. I mean do you really think creationism fared well in this thread? It was a disaster, a train wreck, complete ownage. Did you notice?
My mum told me once: The truth will always win out. She was right. So:
I bet you $10 that evolutionary theory is completely accepted and validated by "everyone" in the western world within my lifetime, and the church has to change its stance to reflect that, just like in Columbus' or Galileo's times.
There's no point in resisting, there's no need to fight...
Its inevitable, Mr Swift.
- 10,116
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- swift-bass
James2097I'm sorry but religious ideas about how things work NEVER get validated in a scientific way (ie the truth).
There's no point in resisting, there's no need to fight...
Its inevitable, Mr Swift.
LOL, you mean like a cheerful happy heart is good like a medicine. Or Peace will keep you emotional healthy. Things like that?
Anyway, I'll hit the rest of what you said later.
