Creation vs. Evolution

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Swift
He wanted something that would love an appreciate him.

How shallow - especially for an omnipotent being.

Pity that it worked out so badly he had to kill everything on the planet apart from eight people and all the animals they could shove onto a boat. You'd have thought he'd seen it coming, at least.
 
Famine
If the future is set, there is no such thing as free will, as every choice you make is inevitable.

If the future is not set then no-one can know the future, belying omniscience and thus one of the defining factors of God.

So, if God exists, there is no free will. Every choice is preset and predetermined. If there is free will, there is no God.

Nice try, but no. Choosing the red card is still your choice. Maybe we need to define freewill? It could be we have different definitions of what freewill is. What's your definition of freewill?
 
Free will , your mind can alter what you do constantly, based on what god knows in your brain as of right now, he knows what you will do next, but that can change via music, television, or mood swings, or does he know when you're going to get those and then still knows what you'll do? Or does he just know ALL possible outcomes of ANYTHING and therefore KNOWS what will happen by saying "oh, SOMEthing will happen, i know that".


About the boat, don't we have 5000-6000 yr old chinese history? Wouldn't they have mentioned this great wave of death?

Wouldn't God want to remove all living proof of history from 5000-10,000 years ago? So we wouldn't be confused? Or... what.
 
When they wrote the Bible the Roman Empire had no idea that China existed. (Although there are rumours of secret preparations for war against the other in both Empires)
 
That's not what I was going for, I meant if there was a global flood that killed all people, how come China doesn't (or I haven't seen) any history of such a thing? Etc.
 
Famine
How shallow - especially for an omnipotent being.

Yeah, it reminds me of people when they have children. "Man, you want something that looks like you to turn around and love you for who you are?" Now that's shallow, but every single parent is like that.
 
Swift
Yeah, it reminds me of people when they have children. "Man, you want something that looks like you to turn around and love you for who you are?" Now that's shallow, but every single parent is like that.


Yea I'm sure that every single parent is like that, even those who abort, send off their young for adoption, and the "doodz" who say to their buddies "Damnit! shes pregnant!"

Sure, the kids who are born wanted, pre planned, and etc, are loved, and the parents do everything they can to get the same love back. But I wouldn't say every single parent is like that.

Man, I am off topic, huh.
 
sicbeing
Yea I'm sure that every single parent is like that, even those who abort, send off their young for adoption, and the "doodz" who say to their buddies "Damnit! shes pregnant!"

Sure, the kids who are born wanted, pre planned, and etc, are loved, and the parents do everything they can to get the same love back. But I wouldn't say every single parent is like that.

Man, I am off topic, huh.

Hmmm....pretty good point. Though I wouldn't consider people that get abortions parents.
 
Pako
Nice try, but no. Choosing the red card is still your choice.

No it isn't. If the outcome is known then there is no "chance" or "choice", merely playing out of a scene.

We've covered this before. I drew a book analogy. The characters in the book would look, if they were real, as if they were choosing things for themselves. But the book has already been written. If I read ahead two chapters I could see what choices they made, then read back and watch them make them.

If they were human, they'd think they were exercising free will, but we, as the reader, know better. Their choices are predetermined and, no matter how many times we read it, they will never change.


Similarly, if we were part of an overall story, all of which is known by an omniscient God, then nothing we do can be characterised as free will. We are merely playing out a story. We'd think we were exercising our right to choose but in reality we had no choice at all, since it was all predestined to happen.

If we weren't part of a story and COULD make snap decisions which had not been foretold then we would directly deny the existence of an ominscient God. Our actions change the future to one which is not set and has not been foreseen on this basis. If it hasn't been foreseen, it is unknown and if it is unknown then omniscience is impossible - nothing can be unknown for omniscience to be true.


So again, if free will truely exists, then God cannot (or at least the traditional God as portrayed by Judeo/Christian/Islamic cultures, as opposed to the Hindu gods who "know, but he may not know") exist. On the other hand, if God exists then there is no free will - which means that God could foresee that Eve ate the fruit because a talking snake told her to, just as He foresaw Peter deny Him three times.


Pako
Maybe we need to define freewill? It could be we have different definitions of what freewill is. What's your definition of freewill?

The opposite of predeterminism.
 
Famine
No it isn't. If the outcome is known then there is no "chance" or "choice", merely playing out of a scene.

We've covered this before. I drew a book analogy. The characters in the book would look, if they were real, as if they were choosing things for themselves. But the book has already been written. If I read ahead two chapters I could see what choices they made, then read back and watch them make them.

If they were human, they'd think they were exercising free will, but we, as the reader, know better. Their choices are predetermined and, no matter how many times we read it, they will never change.


Similarly, if we were part of an overall story, all of which is known by an omniscient God, then nothing we do can be characterised as free will. We are merely playing out a story. We'd think we were exercising our right to choose but in reality we had no choice at all, since it was all predestined to happen.

If we weren't part of a story and COULD make snap decisions which had not been foretold then we would directly deny the existence of an ominscient God. Our actions change the future to one which is not set and has not been foreseen on this basis. If it hasn't been foreseen, it is unknown and if it is unknown then omniscience is impossible - nothing can be unknown for omniscience to be true.


So again, if free will truely exists, then God cannot (or at least the traditional God as portrayed by Judeo/Christian/Islamic cultures, as opposed to the Hindu gods who "know, but he may not know") exist. On the other hand, if God exists then there is no free will - which means that God could foresee that Eve ate the fruit because a talking snake told her to, just as He foresaw Peter deny Him three times.




The opposite of predeterminism.

So your definition of freewill differs from mine. For me, as well as many others, freewill is defined by the ability to make a choice of their own cognisant.

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/
dj) freewill (done of your own accord) "a freewill offering"

According to your definition of freewill you would be correct in your statement. Based on my understanding of the word, and Princeton University's online dictionary, you are still wrong.

I might also add, in your example, it was character's choices that made the story. The story didn't make the choices. You have it backwards. You are binding the limitations of time where time has not boundries. Maybe this is where your hangup is.



*where's that dead horse pic.....*
 
Dictionary.com say:

Dictionary.com
free will
n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Princeton's definition is:

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Noun

* S: (n) free will, discretion (the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies)

If things are predetermined then no choice you make can possibly be "of your own accord". Every choice you make is fated.

Note that "freewill", being adjectival in nature, is different from the concept of "free will".
 
Famine
Dictionary.com say:



Princeton's definition is:



If things are predetermined then no choice you make can possibly be "of your own accord". Every choice you make is fated.

Note that "freewill", being adjectival in nature, is different from the concept of "free will".

Sorry, I don't believe in fate. If I did then maybe we could agree on this. Sorry I edted my post and you probably didn't see this so I'll list it again for your convenience.

I might also add, in your example, it was character's choices that made the story. The story didn't make the choices. You have it backwards. You are binding the limitations of time where time has not boundaries. Maybe this is where your hangup is.
 
Pako
Sorry, I don't believe in fate.

Though you believe in divine will.

Two questions.
1. Did God know that Eve would eat the fruit?
2. Did Jesus know that Peter would deny him three times?


Pako
I might also add, in your example, it was character's choices that made the story. The story didn't make the choices. You have it backwards. You are binding the limitations of time where time has not boundaries. Maybe this is where your hangup is.

The analogy is sound.

Characters = humans
Story = Universe
Reader = Time
Author = God

Time is not bound, as you can see. The reader may skip ahead (forwards in time) to read what happened to the characters as a result of their choices, then skip back (backwards in time) to watch the choices they're going to make. The story (universe) continues to unfold in new directions to the characters (humans) but in predictable directions to the reader (time).

It all goes according to the predestined plan arranged by the story's (Universe's) creator, the author (God).

As you can see, the author (God) already made the choices which the characters (humans) think they are making which allow the story (universe) to progress. But there's nothing free about it and a reader (Time) can scan forward and backward through the story (universe) and see what happens after the choices, then go back to watch those choices being made.

Free will has no part in it.
 
Famine
If things are predetermined then no choice you make can possibly be "of your own accord". Every choice you make is fated.

Note that "freewill", being adjectival in nature, is different from the concept of "free will".
Sorry, have to point this out.

God knows what you are going to do. That's how it is. He didn't choose for you to do what you're going to do, you did. He knows what you will choose, but it was still your decision, not His.

It's like this:
There is a story written about something that happened in the past. In the past there were these creatures, these creatures commited what is known as free will. As these creatures go through their lives, on creature writes a book about it. Then, in the future, when all of the creatures are dead, someone else reads this book. This creature from the future (whoops) now knows everything that happened in the past. Now let's say this guy travels back to the past, however no one knows he is there. He is now following along these creatures lives, knowing exactly what they will do, and when... Are they no longer commiting free will?
 
Burnout
Sorry, have to point this out.

God knows what you are going to do. That's how it is. He didn't choose for you to do what you're going to do, you did. He knows what you will choose, but it was still your decision, not His.

It's like this:
There is a story written about something that happened in the past. In the past there were these creatures, these creatures commited what is known as free will. As these creatures go through their lives, on creature writes a book about it. Then, in the future, when all of the creatures are dead, someone else reads this book. This creature from the future (whoops) now knows everything that happened in the past. Now let's say this guy travels back to the past, however no one knows he is there. He is now following along these creatures lives, knowing exactly what they will do, and when... Are they no longer commiting free will?

If God knows the future, there is no free will. It's quite simple. If the future can be known by anyone - no choices are made.
 
Can I just point out, that Princeton is only a great University by American standards as well. Many Canadian and British Universities surpass it. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese high-schools rivaled it.
 
Famine
Though you believe in divine will.

Two questions.
1. Did God know that Eve would eat the fruit?
2. Did Jesus know that Peter would deny him three times?




The analogy is sound.

Characters = humans
Story = Universe
Reader = Time
Author = God

Time is not bound, as you can see. The reader may skip ahead (forwards in time) to read what happened to the characters as a result of their choices, then skip back (backwards in time) to watch the choices they're going to make. The story (universe) continues to unfold in new directions to the characters (humans) but in predictable directions to the reader (time).

It all goes according to the predestined plan arranged by the story's (Universe's) creator, the author (God).

As you can see, the author (God) already made the choices which the characters (humans) think they are making which allow the story (universe) to progress. But there's nothing free about it and a reader (Time) can scan forward and backward through the story (universe) and see what happens after the choices, then go back to watch those choices being made.

Free will has no part in it.

This is fine but in your example, the pages numbers that the choices are written on are being bound to a particular timeline. You are also assuming that God, the author of the book is also bound by time (written at a particular point in time), true, you can move up and down the timeline as a reader, but you are still being bound by time where there should be no boundaries.
 
Pako
This is fine but in your example, the pages numbers that the choices are written on are being bound to a particular timeline. You are also assuming that God, the author of the book is also bound by time (written at a particular point in time), true, you can move up and down the timeline as a reader, but you are still being bound by time where there should be no boundaries.

Why shouldn't there be any boundaries? Time is constant, there's no variable.
 
PS
Can I just point out, that Princeton is only a great University by American standards as well. Many Canadian and British Universities surpass it. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese high-schools rivaled it.
Umm, considering how much world-class and totally groundbreaking research has come out of Princeton, you can say it, but I'm going to say you're full of crap.

"Japanese high school"?! That would be funny if it wasn't pathetically misinformed.
 
Pako
This is fine but in your example, the pages numbers that the choices are written on are being bound to a particular timeline. You are also assuming that God, the author of the book is also bound by time (written at a particular point in time), true, you can move up and down the timeline as a reader, but you are still being bound by time where there should be no boundaries.

Not at all.

The reader IS time. The story is only the universe. If, as Christians believe, God exists outside the universe, then the story of this universe is just one of the stories God has written and that the reader may read. You can go pick up another book and do the same thing.

It's all rather neat, as analogies go.


Burnout - dan got it covered. If anyone knows what anyone - or anything - else will do next, with 100% certainty, then there is no free will.
 
Duke
Umm, considering how much world-class and totally groundbreaking research has come out of Princeton, you can say it, but I'm going to say you're full of crap.

"Japanese high school"?! That would be funny if it wasn't pathetically misinformed.


Do you know how much groundbreaking research has come out of UofT and universities from the UK?


And don't expect that Japanese high-school thing to be a serious allegation, just like James2097's thoughts about what to do with believers (or has he edited that post?).
 
PS dont you think your cult of personality bit with your idol is getting a bit strange ? why dont you try being yourself for a few post ...clear out your system a bit..your getting a bit ( more ? ) skitzoid .
 

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