Creation vs. Evolution

[Swift]

Not presumptuous at all, it makes perfect sense, but yes it belongs in another thread. It just rolled on from how the debate was going (sort of). We (evolutionists) have already won the creation vs evolution debate, so maybe I'm just subconciously trying to get rid of the source of the irrationality now! :LOL:

Ok, you've won it because from a scientific standpoint you say that you don't know where the matter that created nature came from. But it was a natural process. We don't know where the missing link(s) are but they must be there. So you've won the debate?

Seems to me that both sides have large holes depending on the point of view. So, how is that winning?

 

[James2097]

Ok, you've won it because from a scientific standpoint you say that you don't know where the matter that created nature came from. But it was a natural process. We don't know where the missing link(s) are but they must be there. So you've won the debate?

Seems to me that both sides have large holes depending on the point of view. So, how is that winning?

Any smart person who came to this thread with a neutral stance would whole-heartedly agree that evolution totally pwned creationism.

We don't have to prove either theory to win (this probably won't happen within the timeframe of this thread existing!), you just have to have 1000000000000000% more credibility, which evolution certainly has proven. Creationism has 0%. You also don't have to show HOW the universe was created, or how matter was created (a different thread perhaps?), you only have to prove the concept of how life changes which is what evolution is all about. This has been proven to happen beyond all reasonable doubt.

Of course you'll never agree you've lost, cause you're REALLY biased toward creationism.

Maybe a poll is in order for this thread? Which theory has won?

 

[Swift]

Any smart person who came to this thread with a neutral stance would whole-heartedly agree that evolution totally pwned creationism.

We don't have to prove either theory to win (this probably won't happen within the timeframe of this thread existing!), you just have to have 1000000000000000% more credibility, which evolution certainly has proven. Creationism has 0%. You also don't have to show HOW the universe was created, or how matter was created (a different thread perhaps?), you only have to prove the concept of how life changes which is what evolution is all about. This has been proven to happen beyond all reasonable doubt.

Of course you'll never agree you've lost, cause you're REALLY biased toward creationism.

Maybe a poll is in order for this thread? Which theory has won?

Actually, I'm just waiting for the undeniable scientific evidence of Evolution as the origin of species. Nobody has provided that yet. You've drawn theories, but not proof. So, why should I say "you win"(and I have done it before) when you have zero proof that can't be contested?

 

[sicbeing]

Religion cannot be blamed for violence in my opinion, because it can also not be blamed for good in this world. There are good christians and whoever who travel around and help people who have very little (like in africa or etc) and they do it because they are religous.

But, even without religion, I think these people (in general) would still be good, evil, nice, bad, or whatever, just with different reasons.

 

[PS]

Ok, you've won it because from a scientific standpoint you say that you don't know where the matter that created nature came from. But it was a natural process. We don't know where the missing link(s) are but they must be there. So you've won the debate?

Seems to me that both sides have large holes depending on the point of view. So, how is that winning?

IMO, the winning team is the one which best achieves the goal of the competition, and creationism has simply failed to provide ANY evidence, has not provided ANY theory, and has not provided ANY reason--assuming that we had a purpose, anyway.

On the other hand however, evolution has provided carbon-dating, physical evidence from fossils, rocks, plants, bone structures etc., and has also de-constructed cells and analyzed their compositions to determine how they work. Creationism has not. Creationism/ID has only pointed fingers and used pseudoscience (which hasn't been peer-reviewed and is was 90% personal opinion and conjecture, at best) to try and get others to think alike.

Why do creationists care so much? Why do *you try so hard to gain people on your side? Evolutionists are on the defensive side here, because we know we've already proved enough. We don't have to go out and try to force our thoughts on others, it works itself out with logic. Creationism simply does not.


Had evolutionists been on an offensive role from the beginning, religion probably wouldn't have survived into the 21rst century.

 

[James2097]

Actually, I'm just waiting for the undeniable scientific evidence of Evolution as the origin of species. Nobody has provided that yet. You've drawn theories, but not proof. So, why should I say "you win"(and I have done it before) when you have zero proof that can't be contested?

There has been more than enough proof to draw intelligent conclusions on, you're just ignoring it. You can't contest the amount of evidence that supports evolution, stop being silly.

At the most basic level, as soon as evolution has been proven to happen AT ALL (any fossil records showing the change of ANY species over time shows this) we've won. This happened way at the start of the thread.

 

[James2097]

Religion cannot be blamed for violence in my opinion, because it can also not be blamed for good in this world. There are good christians and whoever who travel around and help people who have very little (like in africa or etc) and they do it because they are religous.

But, even without religion, I think these people (in general) would still be good, evil, nice, bad, or whatever, just with different reasons.

I'm not doubting that, but I know that religion is often used as a tool to AMPLIFY these nasty people's influence (and hence increases hatred and killing).
Ok thats the last post about that I'll do.

Edit: sorry double post. Ok, what about a poll asking what side is winning?

 

[PS]

Actually, I'm just waiting for the undeniable scientific evidence of Evolution as the origin of species. Nobody has provided that yet. You've drawn theories, but not proof. So, why should I say "you win"(and I have done it before) when you have zero proof that can't be contested?

Life has been replicated before. Life has been made in a lab, under similar conditions.

There's no such thing as "undeniable" evidence, anything can be denied, but because it's technically impossible to disprove something, we can only try to be 99.9% accurate in our calculations. But science always strives to improve--that is--always reviews itself and adjusts the theory to FIT THE EVIDENCE-- creationism adjusts the evidence to FIT THE THEORY, if it can even be called that. ID/Creationism has no credibility because it doesnt follow the scientific method, which is the only unbiased way to do something. I don't know how someone can possibly believe what the bible says when theres so much against it, it's just astounding. 90% of the stuff that has been posted by creationists in here has been shot down/debunked by Famine, and yet you still persist. WHY? Why do you continue to belive what it says, with no evidence, and with eons of study and evidence from the Evolutionary perspective? HOW?!

 

[DadtheWheel]

I would like to bring/point something out, there is no such thing as “the missing link”. I am saying this only because I can’t tell if it is being used as a factual missing item or if it is just being used in an expressive way; if it is being used in an expressive way than please forgive my confusion.

The missing link is improbable because evolution (for us humans) happens so slowly and the process of fossilization happens so rarely. Besides, what would the missing link look like? Primates came from a common SIMIAN ancestor, not a common gorilla, chimp, bonobo, orangutan, etc…

Saying we evolved from a monkey is a left over fallacy from the initial reactions Darwin got when his book was released.

 

[DadtheWheel]

WHY? Why do you continue to belive what it says...

Actually I do have an idea to answer that, the problem is there is simply no way to prove my idea. At least not until we figure out how to measure emotional levels with a machine. Until such a machine comes out my idea is automatically invalid.

 

[sicbeing]

I'm not doubting that, but I know that religion is often used as a tool to AMPLIFY these nasty people's influence (and hence increases hatred and killing).
Ok thats the last post about that I'll do.

Edit: sorry double post. Ok, what about a poll asking what side is winning?

Then we should rid of videogames, cuz people kill themselves / others over it, hell, without video games there'd be a cutdown on violence, so lets rid of it.

Get what I'm saying?

 

[Swift]

Life has been replicated before. Life has been made in a lab, under similar conditions.

There's no such thing as "undeniable" evidence, anything can be denied, but because it's technically impossible to disprove something, we can only try to be 99.9% accurate in our calculations. But science always strives to improve--that is--always reviews itself and adjusts the theory to FIT THE EVIDENCE-- creationism adjusts the evidence to FIT THE THEORY, if it can even be called that. ID/Creationism has no credibility because it doesnt follow the scientific method, which is the only unbiased way to do something. I don't know how someone can possibly believe what the bible says when theres so much against it, it's just astounding. 90% of the stuff that has been posted by creationists in here has been shot down/debunked by Famine, and yet you still persist. WHY? Why do you continue to belive what it says, with no evidence, and with eons of study and evidence from the Evolutionary perspective? HOW?!

Ok, so let me get two things straight. One, we can start a new life in a lab so that makes evolution the truth.

Two, if something goes against the scientific method it makes it impossible?

 

[James2097]

Actually I do have an idea to answer that, the problem is there is simply no way to prove my idea. At least not until we figure out how to measure emotional levels with a machine. Until such a machine comes out my idea is automatically invalid.

We need to be able to measure irrationality, the mind's ability to forgo logic in the face of emotional ties.

Its like how a person would never admit they were an alchoholic, even though they drink a bottle of whiskey each breakfast. There is just an emotional denial that is incredibly powerful, regardless of how intelligent the respective person is normally.

Edit: Videogames are a very bad example. Religion has caused innumerable people to die, it is a zillion times more powerful as a means to cause hate and instigate violence. Talk about an immature argument, being so blase regarding the power of religion. We're talking the entire history of mankind here!

 

[Swift]

We need to be able to measure irrationality, the mind's ability to forgo logic in the face of emotional ties.

Its like how a person would never admit they were an alchoholic, even though they drink a bottle of whiskey each breakfast. There is just an emotional denial that is incredibly powerful, regardless of how intelligent the respective person is normally.

Edit: Videogames are a very bad example. Religion has caused innumerable people to die, it is a zillion times more powerful as a means to cause hate and instigate violence. Talk about an immature argument, being so blase regarding the power of religion. We're talking the entire history of mankind here!

Or how a parent would risk and give their lives to save their child. Or how a firefighter charges into a burning building knowing they might not come out.

 

[PS]

Ok, so let me get two things straight. One, we can start a new life in a lab so that makes evolution the truth.

Two, if something goes against the scientific method it makes it impossible?

I'm saying you have no way to quantify and measure what you're saying, making it invalid. And if you do not follow the scientific method, then you are not being scientific, which voids you of all credibility.

 

[PS]

Or how a parent would risk and give their lives to save their child. Or how a firefighter charges into a burning building knowing they might not come out.

That's love and bravery. The parent does not want to let go because on a subconscious level, they'd feel like failures. Like they were bad parents and couldn't protect their child, it's literally instinct.

As for firefighters, some guys/gals just feel the need to sace others, and like doing a good job. With all the adrenalin pumping and gear they have on, I wouldn't stop and think for a second about storming through 600 degree flames.

 

[James2097]

Or how a parent would risk and give their lives to save their child. Or how a firefighter charges into a burning building knowing they might not come out.

Not quite. Those things are logical if the reason for endangering your life are sound (eg to save a child). Its a calculated risk, emotional yes, but this is emotions being useful. Precisely because we have GOOD REASON for reacting in such a way.

There is no GOOD REASON for believing in creationism.

 

[Swift]

Not quite. Those things are logical if the reason for endangering your life are sound (eg to save a child). Its a calculated risk, emotional yes, but this is emotions being useful. Precisely because we have GOOD REASON for reacting in such a way.

There is no GOOD REASON for believing in creationism.

Please, it's completely emotional. and the "good reason" is totally personal. Not everyone would do it. So emotion can very easily overide logic. No matter how strong your logic is.

 

[PS]

Please, it's completely emotional. and the "good reason" is totally personal. Not everyone would do it. So emotion can very easily overide logic. No matter how strong your logic is.

I'm kinda lost here...wtf are you guys talking about? It's like, obvious, but I think I'm missing something...

 

[Swift]

I'm saying you have no way to quantify and measure what you're saying, making it invalid. And if you do not follow the scientific method, then you are not being scientific, which voids you of all credibility.

What? Who ever said that the creation of life had to be scientific? I'm the closed minded one, because I think that there is a possibility outside of science.

Wow, what a concept. Science is aboslutely fantastic. We have so many great advances in society because of it. But just because science is cool, doesn't mean it's the only way.

 

[PS]

What? Who ever said that the creation of life had to be scientific? I'm the closed minded one, because I think that there is a possibility outside of science.

Wow, what a concept. Science is aboslutely fantastic. We have so many great advances in society because of it. But just because science is cool, doesn't mean it's the only way.

You're close minded because you're ignoring eons of research and an assload of evidence.

 

[Swift]

You're close minded because you're ignoring eons of research and an assload of evidence.

eons? a little bit of hyperbole?

Anyway. there are so many "I don't know's" about evolution being the origin of species, how could I not be incredibly skeptical?

Also, I've acknowledged science and it's validity in our culture. While all you have done is insult, condem and deny any existance of God.

 

[PS]

eons? a little bit of hyperbole?

Anyway. there are so many "I don't know's" about evolution being the origin of species, how could I not be incredibly skeptical?

Also, I've acknowledged science and it's validity in our culture. While all you have done is insult, condem and deny any existance of God.

That's because his existence has not been proven, and there have never been any lucid, credible, and substantial reports of his existence other than people saying "I saw a drug addict get totally better"--well guess what? That happens every day.

Religion is a hypocrisy, Christianity's stories are full of "holes", and none of it makes sense, on a logical or possible level.

You're choosing not to acknowledge this evidence because you're afraid, be it conscious or subconscious.

 

[Burnout]

That's because his existence has not been proven, and there have never been any lucid, credible, and substantial reports of his existence other than people saying "I saw a drug addict get totally better"--well guess what? That happens every day.

Religion is a hypocrisy, Christianity's stories are full of "holes", and none of it makes sense, on a logical or possible level.

You're choosing not to acknowledge this evidence because you're afraid, be it conscious or subconscious.

Listen.

I'm 101% sure you're going to disagree with what I'm about to say, but I'm fine with that, since you've decided what you want to believe, and whatever I say isn't going to change that.

The Evolutionary Theory of our origin (as a side note, I'm talking about Evolution as a form of origin.. I am not in any way denying that Evolution happens. I believe it does. I believe God has created creatures and Humans that can evolve to their surroundings, however, he did create them) is based, at the very end of the line, on a theory in that has not been proven. The very founding "idea" that all scientific fact "points at" has never been proven. No. It has not. And, to me, all of the fifty thousand different theories scientists have come up with all sound more ignorant than the last.

Do you get what I'm trying to say? All of this evidence doesn't necessarily point at us evolving from corn over billions of years, that's just what Scientist would like to think. There is no proof of where we came from via the Evolutionary Theory.

Stop right there. I'm not saying there is no evolution. I don't think we're exactly the same as when God created us. I think our teeth have changed, I think our hair has changed, I think our height has changed.. Same for many other species.

Now here's the deal. Show me some "evidence" that we evolved from monkeys. Do it now. And, I don't want to see "similarities" between us and some rare monkey. I want to see how we've come from there to here.

And then show me where Monkeys came from.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I know that there is no "cold hard evidence" that God exists. For you. But that's because you do not have a relationship with Him. You haven't allowed him to make himself real to you.

Have you read the Bible? God gives you and I the choice. I chose to believe, and man is it awesome.

You may chose not to believe, and for the rest of your life believe that you're some "mistake" that has happened over thousands of years because of various different chemicals coming together near a pile of steaming metal, or whatever, but you're never going to have any evidence that takes all doubt out of your mind. Because there isn't any.

 

[PS]

Listen.

I'm 101% sure you're going to disagree with what I'm about to say, but I'm fine with that, since you've decided what you want to believe, and whatever I say isn't going to change that.

You're always so sure of everything, you don't really stop to actually look at what's happening, do you?

The Evolutionary Theory of our origin (as a side note, I'm talking about Evolution as a form of origin.. I am not in any way denying that Evolution happens. I believe it does. I believe God has created creatures and Humans that can evolve to their surroundings, however, he did create them) is based, at the very end of the line, on a theory in that has not been proven.

That depends entirely on your definition of "prove". To me, to "prove" something, means that it happened beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that it's so likely it happened, that all other forms of something happening are just not possible. That's what evolution is: proven.

The very founding "idea" that all scientific fact "points at" has never been proven. No. It has not. And, to me, all of the fifty thousand different theories scientists have come up with all sound more ignorant than the last.

I believe there are about 4-10 major theories and ideas floating around, and the scientific ones are always adapting to new evidence, unlike religion.

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Yes, but I don't know why you waste your breath.

All of this evidence doesn't necessarily point at us evolving from corn over billions of years, that's just what Scientist would like to think. There is no proof of where we came from via the Evolutionary Theory.

Actually, there is. Fossils, genetics, research, DNA analyses, gene-sequencing, and many other methods have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt that humans, monkeys, apes, etc. all have a common ancestor.

Stop right there. I'm not saying there is no evolution. I don't think we're exactly the same as when God created us. I think our teeth have changed, I think our hair has changed, I think our height has changed.. Same for many other species.

Our bone structures. . .our brains. . . our flesh. . . our organs. . . our eyes. . . our skulls. . . our entire bodies. . .

Now here's the deal. Show me some "evidence" that we evolved from monkeys.

Um, we didn't evolve from monkeys.

Do it now.

Make me. I've had enough of these damn fundies telling everyone what to do. You've been doing it since religion began, and frankly, it's quite fascist.

And, I don't want to see "similarities" between us and some rare monkey.

Well then WTF do you want to see? A security camera in the middle of the jungle capturing it all as it happened?!

I want to see how we've come from there to here.

Well go tf back in time and watch it, genius.

And then show me where Monkeys came from.

Africa, asia, the zoo. Why do you have such a fixation on monkeys?


-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I know that there is no "cold hard evidence" that God exists. For you.

For anyone. Testimony and conjecture means nothing, saying you've talked to someone doesn't make them real. 1/5 Americans suffer from a mental problem.

But that's because you do not have a relationship with Him. You haven't allowed him to make himself real to you.

I haven't allowed him to because he has given me no reason to. I've never seen any proof that he created Man, I've never seen any proof that exists, and I've never seen any proof of heaven. So give me proof. Do it. Do it now.

Have you read the Bible?

Some of it.

God gives you and I the choice. I chose to believe, and man is it awesome.

Ignorance is bliss.

You may chose not to believe, and for the rest of your life believe that you're some "mistake" that has happened over thousands of years because of various different chemicals coming together near a pile of steaming metal, or whatever,

Given what you just said, I don't think you're even qualified to say anything relating to lack of evidence, considering how mundanely retarded that sounded. Did you have grade 7-10 science? Yes? No? Well if you did, go back.

And for the last time, WE ARE NOT A MISTAKE. THE CHANCES OF INTELLIGENT LIFE APPEARING IN SOME FORM IS 1/1. NOT 1/10, NOT 1/5, NOT 1/10,000,000. It was innevitable, like flipping a quarter and having it eventually land on heads or tails, and in an infinite time frame, its' side.

but you're never going to have any evidence that takes all doubt out of your mind. Because there isn't any.

Have you read any of this thread? ANY at all? The evidence in here is overwhelming enough, let alone the entire internet, library, and movie resource of the world. And yet you Creationists/ID'ests haven't provided a single shred, you hypocrite.

 

[Grand Prix]

Yes, I also agree that Evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That explains my stance perfectly. 👍

 

[Pako]

Listen.

I'm 101% sure you're going to disagree with what I'm about to say, but I'm fine with that, since you've decided what you want to believe, and whatever I say isn't going to change that.

The Evolutionary Theory of our origin (as a side note, I'm talking about Evolution as a form of origin.. I am not in any way denying that Evolution happens. I believe it does. I believe God has created creatures and Humans that can evolve to their surroundings, however, he did create them) is based, at the very end of the line, on a theory in that has not been proven. The very founding "idea" that all scientific fact "points at" has never been proven. No. It has not. And, to me, all of the fifty thousand different theories scientists have come up with all sound more ignorant than the last.

Do you get what I'm trying to say? All of this evidence doesn't necessarily point at us evolving from corn over billions of years, that's just what Scientist would like to think. There is no proof of where we came from via the Evolutionary Theory.

Stop right there. I'm not saying there is no evolution. I don't think we're exactly the same as when God created us. I think our teeth have changed, I think our hair has changed, I think our height has changed.. Same for many other species.

Now here's the deal. Show me some "evidence" that we evolved from monkeys. Do it now. And, I don't want to see "similarities" between us and some rare monkey. I want to see how we've come from there to here.

And then show me where Monkeys came from.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I know that there is no "cold hard evidence" that God exists. For you. But that's because you do not have a relationship with Him. You haven't allowed him to make himself real to you.

Have you read the Bible? God gives you and I the choice. I chose to believe, and man is it awesome.

You may chose not to believe, and for the rest of your life believe that you're some "mistake" that has happened over thousands of years because of various different chemicals coming together near a pile of steaming metal, or whatever, but you're never going to have any evidence that takes all doubt out of your mind. Because there isn't any.

And that's my problem with science teaching evolution is that they take all their evidence of life changes and evolving and assume that life was created through this same process and they teach that in science classes. They make that assumption because they don't believe in God. Because they don't believe in God, they have determined, by default, that there is no other possibility. If they are going to teach guesses, opinions, and simply untrue facts, intelligent design, which is so widely accepted, should also be taught in science classes. If not, they should also stop teaching evolution as the origin of life and respond to little Billy's questions with, "you'll have to wait until psychology, theology or humanities class before we can discuss that.....".

I would be totally fine with that.

 

[Famine]

And that's my problem with science teaching evolution is that they take all their evidence of life changes and evolving and assume that life was created through this same process and they teach that in science classes. They make that assumption because they don't believe in God. Because they don't believe in God, they have determined, by default, that there is no other possibility. If they are going to teach guesses, opinions, and simply untrue facts, intelligent design, which is so widely accepted, should also be taught in science classes. If not, they should also stop teaching evolution as the origin of life and respond to little Billy's questions with, "you'll have to wait until psychology, theology or humanities class before we can discuss that.....".

I would be totally fine with that.

Science is science. Evolution, whether you agree with it or not, is scientific - it can be, and is frequently, tested by the "scientific method" - and belongs in a science class. If you think evolution shouldn't be taught in a science class because you don't agree with it, then almost nothing else should be taught in a science class.

ID, whether you agree with it or not, is NOT scientific - it cannot be, despite best efforts, tested by the "scientific method" - and does not belong in a science class. If you think ID should be taught in a science class, then almost everything else people think, including the FSM, should be taught in a science class.


Many evolutionary scientists believe in God. Many other scientists believe in God. ALL scientists know that you should not "needlessly multiply entities", and that "God did it" is NOT an answer which can be investigated, proven, verified, checked or corroborated.

 

[sicbeing]

I don't mind religion beind taught in schools, but...

never

should religion be brought into the science class

that's like bringing "break sh**"-class into woodshop.

Religion may just need a class in its own... or even a school... oh wait we have that...

 

[PS]

No, but it happens in Dictatorships that have nothing to do with religon. Do you think Saddam Hussein was murdering his own people in the name of Allah? Come on.

I'm sure you can see the point in his analogy, you're simply chosing to act ignorantly.

No I'm not, the analogy was flawed. Look at the wars happening in the middle east (no, not the one(s) you started 4 years ago)—they're all over religion. It's a contagious disease that affects people's minds and rational abilities and comprehension and leads people to do extreme things. Like that game Everquest where all the nerds sit there for 3 days strait: they get addicted and compulsive and become dogmatic about it.