Creation vs. Evolution

[PS]

I don't mind religion beind taught in schools, but...

never

should religion be brought into the science class

that's like bringing "break sh**"-class into woodshop.

Religion may just need a class in its own... or even a school... oh wait we have that...

Yah, and look what those schools did to my avatar.

 

[Pako]

Science is science. Evolution, whether you agree with it or not, is scientific - it can be, and is frequently, tested by the "scientific method" - and belongs in a science class. If you think evolution shouldn't be taught in a science class because you don't agree with it, then almost nothing else should be taught in a science class.

ID, whether you agree with it or not, is NOT scientific - it cannot be, despite best efforts, tested by the "scientific method" - and does not belong in a science class. If you think ID should be taught in a science class, then almost everything else people think, including the FSM, should be taught in a science class.


Many evolutionary scientists believe in God. Many other scientists believe in God. ALL scientists know that you should not "needlessly multiply entities", and that "God did it" is NOT an answer which can be investigated, proven, verified, checked or corroborated.

Maybe you didn't read my post carefully enough. I never said evolution wasn't scientific, I never said it shouldn't be taught in science class.

What I said was, if they are going to teach evolution as a origin theory, they should also explore other origin theories as well. Since origin theories cannot be proven, they should not be taught in the science class. There are other classes that would better suit those discussions.

 

[Swift]

No I'm not, the analogy was flawed. Look at the wars happening in the middle east (no, not the one(s) you started 4 years ago)—they're all over religion. It's a contagious disease that affects people's minds and rational abilities and comprehension and leads people to do extreme things. Like that game Everquest where all the nerds sit there for 3 days strait: they get addicted and compulsive and become dogmatic about it.

Actually, it's a war over territory. But you didn't know that. And the funny thing is, that Jews and Arabs are cousins.

Ok, so Napolean was trying to spread Christianity? And Alexander that great was all about spreading his particular theology? And I'm sure all the mongals wanted to do was to change the chinese to their belief system. Umm, no. For every conflict that you cite in the name of religion there are greater ones for pure greed(WWII for instance). So don't come to me saying that religion and spirituality is evil. It's the people, just as it's always been. Not everyone is evil, but some of us yield to the evil tendancies and poof, you have yourself a dictator.

 

[Famine]

What I said was, if they are going to teach evolution as a origin theory

Which they don't. Because it isn't.

they should also explore other origin theories as well.

Which they do. They say "Here's the theories. Make up your mind which is most scientifically valid."

 

[Swift]

Which they do. They say "Here's the theories. Make up your mind which is most scientifically valid."

They don't do that in most public American schools Famine.

 

[Burnout]

Listen.
*snip*

I think it's real nice that you have time to waste insulting my opinions, but what I find funny is that all you were able to do in that insanely long reply was, well, insult me.

Very nice.

And I say again, this time hoping for a respectful answer (although I'll doubtfully get one), does evolution show me where we came from, or does it just presume because of other evidence that we must've come from "insertsomethinghere".

 

[ledhed]

Yes they do . CREATION is not a theory its DOGMA . Thats why outside of religion based course you will not see it side by side with science ...BECAUSE ITS NOT .
The problem is some numbnuts are trying to claim ITS SCIENCE and should be taught . Hence this thread was started . And ....where is that dead horse when I need to kick it ?

 

[Pako]

Yes they do . CREATION is not a theory its DOGMA . Thats why outside of religion based course you will not see it side by side with science ...BECAUSE ITS NOT .
The problem is some numbnuts are trying to claim ITS SCIENCE and should be taught . Hence this thread was started . And ....where is that dead horse when I need to kick it ?

Here you go:

It tried to run away, but no chance of that happening..., not in this thread anyways.

 

[Pako]

Which they don't. Because it isn't.

Thank you, we both agree that evoltuion is NOT a origin theory and should not be taught as such.

Thank you....

 

[Danoff]

They don't do that in most public American schools Famine.

What they do in science class in American public schools is say

"Here are the scientific theories, make up your mind which is the most valid."

 

[PS]

Actually, it's a war over territory. But you didn't know that. And the funny thing is, that Jews and Arabs are cousins.

You know, there are hundreds of wars ravaging the Earth simultaneously. Especially Sri Lanka and Mongolia, where people are dismembered and then beheaded for not believing the same thing.

 

[PS]

I think it's real nice that you have time to waste insulting my opinions, but what I find funny is that all you were able to do in that insanely long reply was, well, insult me.

Very nice.

And I say again, this time hoping for a respectful answer (although I'll doubtfully get one), does evolution show me where we came from, or does it just presume because of other evidence that we must've come from "insertsomethinghere".

When I say "you" I mean a general term referring to Christians in general. Oh, and read my reply, and reply to it. You guys are good at replying to something I've said completely unrelated to my points.

 

[Pako]

What they do in science class in American public schools is say

"Here are the scientific theories, make up your mind which is the most valid."

There are different state, county, and district curriculum. My experience is what Swift said. With my son, going into the 7th grade, I will be exposed first hand (again) what public schools are teaching now.

 

[Swift]

You know, there are hundreds of wars ravaging the Earth simultaneously. Especially Sri Lanka and Mongolia, where people are dismembered and then beheaded for not believing the same thing.

And that's different from the american's slaughtering the Native American's how?

My point is belief system isn't always tied to a person's religion.

 

[PS]

And that's different from the american's slaughtering the Native American's how?

My point is belief system isn't always tied to a person's religion.

I'm talking about now. James2097 was talking about a long time ago.

 

[Swift]

I'm talking about now. James2097 was talking about a long time ago.

Uh, I'm talking about now too. People are slaughtered for all kinds of reasons. Don't say that "religion" is the reason for it all.

 

[PS]

Uh, I'm talking about now too. People are slaughtered for all kinds of reasons. Don't say that "religion" is the reason for it all.

Native Americans stopped being slaughtered 200 years ago, muslims, and whatever those who live in Sri Lanka and Sierra Leone and Somalia and Kenya are, are still being slaughtered and its' completely ignored. But that's not my point.

My point is, religion, while it may be full of nice little morals, is also VERY personal to others, and they take it waaay too seriously and end up killing people because they don't believe the same thing.

And I'm not just talking about Christianity, there are other religions out there, you know.

 

[Swift]

Native Americans stopped being slaughtered 200 years ago, muslims, and whatever those who live in Sri Lanka and Sierra Leone and Somalia and Kenya are, are still being slaughtered and its' completely ignored. But that's not my point.

My point is, religion, while it may be full of nice little morals, is also VERY personal to others, and they take it waaay too seriously and end up killing people because they don't believe the same thing.

And I'm not just talking about Christianity, there are other religions out there, you know.

Well duh. And if you really think the slaughtering of the indians stopped over 200 years ago, well...


My question to you is, is there anything you're willing to die for? Not a person, but an ideal?

 

[PS]

Well duh. And if you really think the slaughtering of the indians stopped over 200 years ago, well...


My question to you is, is there anything you're willing to die for? Not a person, but an ideal?

Stopped in Canada, I don't know when you stopped killing your own people though.

Is there anything I'm willing to die for? Well, if not a person, then what?

An ideal, huh? Like, for a company? A "cause"? Most "cause"'s are for other people so...

That would probably be a no, but I'd need a specific ideal.



Would you?

 

[Burnout]

Stopped in Canada, I don't know when you stopped killing your own people though.

Is there anything I'm willing to die for? Well, if not a person, then what?

An ideal, huh? Like, for a company? A "cause"? Most "cause"'s are for other people so...

That would probably be a no, but I'd need a specific ideal.



Would you?

God. Christianity.

 

[Swift]

Stopped in Canada, I don't know when you stopped killing your own people though.

Is there anything I'm willing to die for? Well, if not a person, then what?

An ideal, huh? Like, for a company? A "cause"? Most "cause"'s are for other people so...

That would probably be a no, but I'd need a specific ideal.



Would you?

Yes, I'd die defending the freedom of this country.(an Ideal) I'd die for the gospel of christ(an ideal you don't acknowledge).

God. Christianity.

Yeah, what he said. 👍

 

[sukerkin]

Somewhat askew of the topic now aren't we, gentlemen?

Anyhow, continuing the multiple-thread-hijack, PS, I have to confess that my Canadian history is very patchy, which is shameful considering that a lot of it used to be 'ours'.

Still, it surprises me to hear you attest that the marginalising and general persecution of the native Indians stopped over two centuries ago. Is that correct? I would've thought that it went right on up until much more recently than that (when we Europeans finally developed something of a conscience about the whole genocide thing )?

If you don't know for sure, can you point me towards some links/books that can correct my ignorance?

 

[Earth]

Did this come about on its own due to randomness and mutations? Is the passing of time responsible for this? I simply cannot believe that. The bones, the muscles, the nerves, did all these things, none which can work without the other, slowly come together due to the creature needing them? Did a creature suddenly grow a heart? How do creatures with hearts survive before they had a heart? What about the vessels, lungs and myriads of other things a human needs to live? Did we simply gain these things one at a time, then when the time was right they started working?

Where did the plants come from? Did life evolve plants on land and life in the water at the same time? What did the amphibians eat once on land if there was no insects or any other life?

The idea that he is a spirit and cannot be seen is no reason not to believe

God exists

 

[Danoff]

Did this come about on its own due to randomness and mutations? Is the passing of time responsible for this? I simply cannot believe that. The bones, the muscles, the nerves, did all these things, none which can work without the other, slowly come together due to the creature needing them? Did a creature suddenly grow a heart? How do creatures with hearts survive before they had a heart? What about the vessels, lungs and myriads of other things a human needs to live? Did we simply gain these things one at a time, then when the time was right they started working?

Where did the plants come from? Did life evolve plants on land and life in the water at the same time? What did the amphibians eat once on land if there was no insects or any other life?

The idea that he is a spirit and cannot be seen is no reason not to believe

God exists

My God Earth... how many times are you going to go back to the same exact argument?

 

[(G)]

Wasn't it established that it wasn't chance? That it was suitability?

You can see plenty of basic nervous systems in nature.

 

[Earth]

What was suitable about a cell coming from dead matter? What was suitable about cells coming together to create creatures?

Evolution is chance. Dont try and sugar coat it by saying otherwise

Where did the plants come from?

I want your scientific answers

 

[(G)]

Evolution is chance. Dont try and sugar coat it by saying otherwise

Evolution ISN'T chance. Chance dictates a portion of genetic variation. If they attribute to physical variations, ie resistance to chemicals or a tendency to split, and if the physical attribute contributes to the survivability of the organism in it's current enviroment, then it will continue to thrive.

What was suitable about a cell coming from dead matter?

Wrong theory.

What was suitable about cells coming together to create creatures?

Cells in colonies presented a higher chance for survivability for the species. Colonies of single-celled organisms are quite common today.

If the organism is quite successful as a species, then further changes towards codependency and specialization within the cells of the colonies could spark the evolutionary drive towards multicellular organisms, IE plants and animals.

 

[sukerkin]

I know this has been a long thread chaps and I'm not sure that I've read all of it but it seems to me that a simple, unelaborated, dismissal of Earth's points isn't really good enough.

I too have serious misgivings about the veracity of evolutionary theory that are to some extent founded on such concerns as Earth has voiced (and I'm not a Creationist either, before the science-camp attack dogs start biting). I can quite easily accept the adaptation of existing creatures to their surroundings and environmental pressures but there are some things that don't pass the scepticism filter so easily. Such as the evolution of organs that don't actually work or give any advantage until they're fully formed or the evolution of organs that (as far as we know) we don't actually need or make use of properly (the brain for one ).

Any answers that aren't glib or trite will be gratefully received as it's not many weeks until my annual debate with my father about why I don't believe in God and why the story of Creation doesn't convince me when I see all too well the flaws in Evolutionary theory.

 

[PS]

What was suitable about a cell coming from dead matter? What was suitable about cells coming together to create creatures?

Evolution is chance. Dont try and sugar coat it by saying otherwise

Where did the plants come from?

I want your scientific answers

How about you stfu and listen to people for once. You don't know a damn thing about what you're talking about, there are quadrillions of single-cell creatures living on this planet. How about jellyfish? Those don't have hearts, or brains, and yet are deadly enough to send grown men into shock and some can even kill. I'm not sugar-coating anything, cells didn't come from dead matter, they came from acids, proteins, and other biological matter. If it was dead, it wouldn't be life, now would it?

They didn't come from dirt, either. Did you know a worm has 5 hearts? That's evolution. Did you know that a 100lb monkey can out-arm wrestle a 300lb man? That's evolution. Did you know a cow has 4 stomachs to digest grasses? That's evolution. Evolution is not chance, evolution is purpose, and evolution is what makes us be.

 

[Danoff]

What was suitable about a cell coming from dead matter? What was suitable about cells coming together to create creatures?

We talked about this didn't we?

Evolution is chance. Dont try and sugar coat it by saying otherwise

I explained how evolution is a logical consequence of shared genetic infor.... forget it.

Where did the plants come from?

Did you mean planets?

I want your scientific answers

You've gotten them multiple times at this point, complete with a fossil record illustration showing how multiple species have evolved from one and how species have evolved into different... forget it.