Creation vs. Evolution

[Zardoz]

..your getting a bit ( more ? ) skitzoid .

Actually, he's showing signs of "multiple-personality disorder", which is a whole other issue. Schizophrenia is characterized by a general loss of touch with reality, often manifesting itself in the hearing of voices inside your head.

'Course, PS may well be hearing voices for all we know, but in any case the split-personality thing has nothing to do with schizophrenia. Its a common misperception and mis-use of the term.

Just though I'd clear that up...

 

[PS]

PS dont you think your cult of personality bit with your idol is getting a bit strange ? why dont you try being yourself for a few post ...clear out your system a bit..your getting a bit ( more ? ) skitzoid .

Right. And where'd you get your doctorate in psychology?


My "cult of personality" has nothing to do with Marilyn Manson, it has to do with my distaste of hypocrisy and conservativism.

 

[Famine]

'Course, PS may well be hearing voices for all we know

Could be God, of course...

 

[Pako]

Not at all.

The reader IS time. The story is only the universe. If, as Christians believe, God exists outside the universe, then the story of this universe is just one of the stories God has written and that the reader may read. You can go pick up another book and do the same thing.

It's all rather neat, as analogies go.

And here is how I see it.

It makes more sense with God being the reader of the book - because he knows what choices we make before we make them

time being the book - A Timeline usually moves in chronological order, i.e. page 1-600 etc...,

the universe being the content in the book - you have to have content and the universe seems to have plenty of "stuff" to makeup the content.

We show God through our actions and choices what the story will unfold and so it is written. God, not being bound by time doesn't have to wait for a event to occur in the sense of a 'point in time' because God is timeless. God did not predetermine our fate. To be predetermining is to take away our free will which was given by God in the first place. He is ALL Knowing but there is no Biblical backing for predetermination of our actions. This is what makes us 'special', it is our free will. We are a species that God has favored his grace on. He has landscaped the setting in the book, it's up to us to decide how the story plays out.

Think of it as a choose your own adventure book. I kind of forgot for a moment what we were talking about.

It is a cool analogy though.

 

[James2097]

Choose your own adventure? Kill loads of innocent people in bloodthirsty crusades? YES PLEASE! Really, its all humans (and their stupid beleifs) who are at fault here.

Everyone sees that terrorists are terrible and evil, but "the good guys" were doing the same not so long ago, and on a far bigger scale (america, australia/tasmania, crusades, etc etc). Religion (that judges others, or encourages one to "spread the word") is just ****ed. Humans will always be too selfish to act morally, and religion sometimes helps, but overall is the instigator for creating difference (and thus misunderstanding and hate) amongst people, always leading mindless killing.

Basically if you think that everything "GOD" does is just (or that it has a reason), then you've lived a very priviliged and sheltered life. The world is not very nice people, with a butt-load of suffering, all of it unfair. No one deserves to suffer. Saying that there is a reason for this suffering is simply turning a blind eye to the reality of the situation. The problem is too big for you to deal with so you take solace in God and go bake a cake. Its almost a bloody infringement of basic human rights to believe that life is just.

I blame religion for being the very thing its supposedly trying not to be : uncaring and dissconnected with the world, and what is right and wrong. Its just so damn hypocrytical, its SICKENING.

 

[a6m5]

Choose your own adventure? Kill loads of innocent people in bloodthirsty crusades? YES PLEASE! Really, its all humans (and their stupid beleifs) who are at fault here.

Everyone sees that terrorists are terrible and evil, but "the good guys" were doing the same not so long ago, and on a far bigger scale (america, australia/tasmania, crusades, etc etc). Religion (that judges others, or encourages one to "spread the word") is just ****ed. Humans will always be too selfish to act morally, and religion sometimes helps, but overall is the instigator for creating difference (and thus misunderstanding and hate) amongst people, always leading mindless killing.

Basically if you think that everything "GOD" does is just (or that it has a reason), then you've lived a very priviliged and sheltered life. The world is not very nice people, with a butt-load of suffering, all of it unfair. No one deserves to suffer. Saying that there is a reason for this suffering is simply turning a blind eye to the reality of the situation. The problem is too big for you to deal with so you take solace in God and go bake a cake. Its almost a bloody infringement of basic human rights to believe that life is just.

I blame religion for being the very thing its supposedly trying not to be : uncaring and dissconnected with the world, and what is right and wrong. Its just so damn hypocrytical, its SICKENING.

Bad day at the office? Sorry! Just kidding. Before I say anymore, I don't disagree with everything you say.

You are right, there's been countless killing in the name of religion. But IMO, people's been killing other people for lots other countless reasons, too. I don't think religious people are any more likely to kill than non-religious people. Just my opinion.

I do believe terrorists are evil. Not just for the killing, but because they target civilians. I feel the same way about Israelis, when they blow up the entire block and claims there was a terrorist in one of the buildings.

I don't agree with your description of religious people, but I know that you're smart guy, so you probably have reasons for having your point of view. I just want to say that there are many Christians who have lead really rough life, far from "priviliged and sheltered" life. It's important to remember that people are all different, even amongst religious people. I thought your profiling of religious people were bit stereotypical.

 

[tabs]

Can I just point out, that Princeton is only a great University by American standards as well. Many Canadian and British Universities surpass it. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese high-schools rivaled it.

Do you know how much groundbreaking research has come out of UofT and universities from the UK?

Here's the top 10 for 2005:

1. Harvard Univ. - USA
2. Univ. Cambridge - UK
3. Stanford Univ. - USA
4. Univ. California - Berkeley - USA
5. Massachusetts Inst. Tech (MIT) - USA
6. California Inst. Tech - USA
7. Columbia Univ. - USA
   [*]Princeton Univ. - USA
8. Univ. Chicago - USA
9. Univ. Oxford - UK

University of Toronto is 24th.

Source: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm

 

[James2097]

What a6m5 said.

Yeah, I know I'm stereotyping (partly to instigate debate ). Of course there are good and bad people irrespective of religion (due to other factors in their lives), but my point is that if any given person is a violent type, or has a bad temper, or seeks greed and power, religion is often used as a tool to justify inhuman acts of violence, or to persecute and wipe-out entire races of people, with zero or little guilt. He has immunity from persecution from his own people - those who believe in the same religion. Look at many muslim people (who are no doubt nice folks) waver when they are asked to condemn Osama and what he does... they have an illogical and unjust connection to their religion that brainwashes them into ignoring the reality of these inhumane acts. There are many many cases of this happening, over various religious denominations. Isn't it obvious that if religion didn't exist there would be substantially less (but not zero) bloodshed?

Just look at those who terrorise people in the streets, who blow up buildings, who justify ANYTHING in the name of their religion... Modern day terrorists may be psychologically in the dark ages (compared to our concept of human rights), but you have to note that in the dark ages (and also not THAT far back from now) it was a normal frame of mind for people of christian faith to forcefully convert people... (ie the stolen generation of Aboriginal children, the systematic wiping out of EVERY native person in Tasmania... this is just Australian history - not the worst in the history of the world!).

Ultimately, I would be of the opinion (and I hate to be so pessimistic) that religion as a whole has brought more bad than good. Of course I have zero problem (and a great deal of respect for) those who personally find great joy and peace in God, and who don't try and force anything on anyone else.

 

[a6m5]

I do agree with many points you make there, James. Regarding the Aboriginal children in Australia, I did see the film I think was called "Rabbitproof Fences"? You probably know which film I'm talking about, since it came from Australia. It wasn't a huge hit or anything in the States, but it was a very popular rental at my local video rental shop. Took me few tries before I got to rent it.

 

[Flame-returns]

"Rabbitproof Fence" I beleive it's singular.

 

[a6m5]

"Rabbitproof Fence" I beleive it's singular.

I knew I was gonna mess it up somehow. Thanks!

 

[Touring Mars]

Very interesting article in today's Gaurdian ( ) written by Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne (I wonder, is it Famine under a pseudonym? ), about this very debate..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1559743,00.html

 

[code_kev]

Great article, and pretty much shoots down Creationism...once again. I love how real scientists shoot down the dogma with such ease, and once again Creationism is made to look illogical, short sighted, and backwards.

Some quotes I rather liked...

But it no more belongs in a biology class than alchemy belongs in a chemistry class, phlogiston in a physics class or the stork theory in a sex education class.

If ID really were a scientific theory, positive evidence for it, gathered through research, would fill peer-reviewed scientific journals. This doesn't happen. It isn't that editors refuse to publish ID research. There simply isn't any ID research to publish. Its advocates bypass normal scientific due process by appealing directly to the non-scientific public and - with great shrewdness - to the government officials they elect.

There is no evidence in favour of intelligent design: only alleged gaps in the completeness of the evolutionary account, coupled with the "default" fallacy we have identified. And, while it is inevitably true that there are incompletenesses in evolutionary science, the positive evidence for the fact of evolution is truly massive, made up of hundreds of thousands of mutually corroborating observations

A great find touring mars.

 

[sukerkin]

Very interesting article in today's Gaurdian ( )

TSk tsk ... there's no room for such inaccuracy here TM ... everyone knows that it's the Grauniad

 

[Touring Mars]

TSk tsk ... there's no room for such inaccuracy here TM ... everyone knows that it's the Grauniad

he he, glad to see someone is paying attention... you have the well-honed observational skills of a Private Eye

 

[Pako]

Choose your own adventure? Kill loads of innocent people in bloodthirsty crusades? YES PLEASE! Really, its all humans (and their stupid beleifs) who are at fault here.

Everyone sees that terrorists are terrible and evil, but "the good guys" were doing the same not so long ago, and on a far bigger scale (america, australia/tasmania, crusades, etc etc). Religion (that judges others, or encourages one to "spread the word") is just ****ed. Humans will always be too selfish to act morally, and religion sometimes helps, but overall is the instigator for creating difference (and thus misunderstanding and hate) amongst people, always leading mindless killing.

Basically if you think that everything "GOD" does is just (or that it has a reason), then you've lived a very priviliged and sheltered life. The world is not very nice people, with a butt-load of suffering, all of it unfair. No one deserves to suffer. Saying that there is a reason for this suffering is simply turning a blind eye to the reality of the situation. The problem is too big for you to deal with so you take solace in God and go bake a cake. Its almost a bloody infringement of basic human rights to believe that life is just.

I blame religion for being the very thing its supposedly trying not to be : uncaring and dissconnected with the world, and what is right and wrong. Its just so damn hypocrytical, its SICKENING.

These crusades that you speak of go directly against Christ's teachings. Since we're full of examples in here lets try this one.

You have a driving instructor that tells you to stop at red lights. You ignore this warning and kill a mother and her two kids. Everyone is mad at the instructor because you said you ran the red light at the guidance of the instructor.

In this example, the driver made an association with the instructor even though the driver completely ignored the teachers instructions. So blame religion all you want for all the problems of the world, but it is the sins of man that you should be blaming not Christ who teaches a completely different message then that of the Crusades. Haven't we discussed this already in this thread?

 

[sicbeing]

Was there heaven before christ?

 

[DadtheWheel]

Not that I want to stir the pot anymore than it already is but…

There are examples of cultures that have a religious element and commit “crimes against humanity”. There are also examples of cultures that lack a religious element and still commit “crimes against humanity”. As a note let me say that by “lack a religious element” I am also including those which may have a “magick” based system; admittedly these cultures could be included in the religious category.

So what is my point? Simply put I speculate that even without religion humanity would find other comfortable excuses for committing such crimes. Now the definition of “crimes against humanity” can waiver from culture to culture and even then from person to person. As an example I find the forced internment of humans to be a crime. Using this personal definition I would include the internment of Americans with Japanese ancestry during WWII to be a crime. In this example the crime was not committed in the name of religion.

One last note for clarities sake, I am not trying to compare murder with forced internment. What I am saying is that there are examples, beyond the whole-sale slaughter of humans, which fit into the definition of “crimes against humanity”.

 

[Swift]

Was there heaven before christ?

Yes, why do you ask?

 

[PS]

These crusades that you speak of go directly against Christ's teachings. Since we're full of examples in here lets try this one.

You have a driving instructor that tells you to stop at red lights. You ignore this warning and kill a mother and her two kids. Everyone is mad at the instructor because you said you ran the red light at the guidance of the instructor.

In this example, the driver made an association with the instructor even though the driver completely ignored the teachers instructions. So blame religion all you want for all the problems of the world, but it is the sins of man that you should be blaming not Christ who teaches a completely different message then that of the Crusades. Haven't we discussed this already in this thread?

But can a driver believe and dogmatically follow his instructor for his whole life?

 

[Danoff]

But can a driver believe and dogmatically follow his instructor for his whole life?

Woah. That's not really a problem with what pako was saying.

 

[Swift]

Woah. That's not really a problem with what pako was saying.

Seriously PS. Where did you get that from?

 

[sicbeing]

I ask because, isn't the only way to get into heaven is through christ? Or was it not always like that, and if it wasn't, how did you get into heaven? from believeing / following what icon / god?

 

[PS]

Seriously PS. Where did you get that from?

It was a poor analogy; unless he was hinting at "religion just tells you exactly what to do", it was a poor analogy. People can worship (any) religion and become radical extremists because they've taken the teachings out of context, that simply doesn't happen in an instructorial environment--like a drivers' test.

 

[PS]

Hmm...

Food for thought:

Biologists, on the other hand, can confidently claim the equivalent "cinematic" sequence of fossils for a very large number of evolutionary transitions. Not all, but very many, including our own descent from the bipedal ape Australopithecus. And - far more telling - not a single authentic fossil has ever been found in the "wrong" place in the evolutionary sequence. Such an anachronistic fossil, if one were ever unearthed, would blow evolution out of the water.

As the great biologist J B S Haldane growled, when asked what might disprove evolution: "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." Evolution, like all good theories, makes itself vulnerable to disproof. Needless to say, it has always come through with flying colours.

 

[Danoff]

Hmm...

Food for thought:

That quote misunderstands that science will adapt to new information and generate a replacement theory to fit the new facts.

 

[Swift]

It was a poor analogy; unless he was hinting at "religion just tells you exactly what to do", it was a poor analogy. People can worship (any) religion and become radical extremists because they've taken the teachings out of context, that simply doesn't happen in an instructorial environment--like a drivers' test.

No, but it happens in Dictatorships that have nothing to do with religon. Do you think Saddam Hussein was murdering his own people in the name of Allah? Come on.

I'm sure you can see the point in his analogy, you're simply chosing to act ignorantly.

 

[James2097]

These crusades that you speak of go directly against Christ's teachings. Since we're full of examples in here lets try this one.

You have a driving instructor that tells you to stop at red lights. You ignore this warning and kill a mother and her two kids. Everyone is mad at the instructor because you said you ran the red light at the guidance of the instructor.

In this example, the driver made an association with the instructor even though the driver completely ignored the teachers instructions. So blame religion all you want for all the problems of the world, but it is the sins of man that you should be blaming not Christ who teaches a completely different message then that of the Crusades. Haven't we discussed this already in this thread?

These crusades still happened because religion was there, and used as a tool (regardless of the 'correct' teachings of Christ), just like in modern terrorism (which goes against the correct teachings of the Quoran). I think you missed that idea I was trying to get across. I am saying many humans are inherently greedy and selfish. Religion does help those nasty power hungry people gain credibility and commit atrocities that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get away with, due to religious justification used to convince brainwashed followers.

People have misinterpreted the teachings of every religion for ever and ever to meet their own specific needs at the time, throughout the entire history of mankind. Hence, if religion didn't exist, neither would the platform to let Osama et all gain influence and power. Its quite naive to just assume everyone will practise religion responsibly and be happy, they never have, nor never will.

BTW I never meant that ALL violence/war would stop if religion didn't exist (duh), only that it would substantially cut the amount of bloodshed. Of course there are cases of atrocities occuring where there is no religious factor helping out...

Regardless of whether the majority practises their faith in the proper way or not, religion simply leaves too many oppurtunities for otherwise incomprehensible things to happen without condemnation of those doing the killing. Instead, they're applauded by a large base of (scarily) guilt-free followers... Its very dangerous for any group of humans to think the only true "god" is on their side, encouraging the murder of innocent people, celebrating those doing the killing. Its not important whether the religion in question is being followed correctly, but that the killing is still happening due to religion (no matter how warped).

Hence the world would still be better off without religion. Religion is just too dangerous in its potential to be used politically/culturally as a tool to get large groups of people to ignore (or commit) inhumane acts against innocent people. Cue Hitler, Al Queada, the entire middle east (will they ever stop shooting?), the crusades, settlement of Australia and the USA, enslavement of africans - cotton fields (of course black people have no soul ), apartheit, etc etc etc.
I'm not even gonna get into the many stupid things carried out in war (Romans/Greeks/Middle Ages etc) where thousands and thousands of innocent people died supposedly at the wish of certain gods... real smart way to go.

Its only recently that God has been followed in a way that doesn't encourage some form of violence... In terms of the history of mankind, religion has been at the heart of the fighting and millions upon millions of people slaughtered in various god's honour...

Do not underestimate the human race's ability to misappropriate and use religion for the worst possible means. This will continue as long as religions remain a powerful cultural element of world societies. Hence, the world would be better off without any religion.

 

[Pako]

These crusades still happened because religion was there, and used as a tool (regardless of the 'correct' teachings of Christ), just like in modern terrorism (which goes against the correct teachings of the Quoran). I think you missed that idea I was trying to get across. I am saying many humans are inherently greedy and selfish. Religion does help those nasty power hungry people gain credibility and commit atrocities that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get away with, due to religious justification used to convince brainwashed followers.

People have misinterpreted the teachings of every religion for ever and ever to meet their own specific needs at the time, throughout the entire history of mankind. Hence, if religion didn't exist, neither would the platform to let Osama et all gain influence and power. Its quite naive to just assume everyone will practise religion responsibly and be happy, they never have, nor never will.

BTW I never meant that ALL violence/war would stop if religion didn't exist (duh), only that it would substantially cut the amount of bloodshed. Of course there are cases of atrocities occuring where there is no religious factor helping out...

Regardless of whether the majority practises their faith in the proper way or not, religion simply leaves too many oppurtunities for otherwise incomprehensible things to happen without condemnation of those doing the killing. Instead, they're applauded by a large base of (scarily) guilt-free followers... Its very dangerous for any group of humans to think the only true "god" is on their side, encouraging the murder of innocent people, celebrating those doing the killing. Its not important whether the religion in question is being followed correctly, but that the killing is still happening due to religion (no matter how warped).

Hence the world would still be better off without religion. Religion is just too dangerous in its potential to be used politically/culturally as a tool to get large groups of people to ignore (or commit) inhumane acts against innocent people. Cue Hitler, Al Queada, the entire middle east (will they ever stop shooting?), the crusades, settlement of Australia and the USA, enslavement of africans - cotton fields (of course black people have no soul ), apartheit, etc etc etc.
I'm not even gonna get into the many stupid things carried out in war (Romans/Greeks/Middle Ages etc) where thousands and thousands of innocent people died supposedly at the wish of certain gods... real smart way to go.

Its only recently that God has been followed in a way that doesn't encourage some form of violence... In terms of the history of mankind, religion has been at the heart of the fighting and millions upon millions of people slaughtered in various god's honour...

Do not underestimate the human races's ability to misappropriate and use religion for the worst possible means. This will continue as long as religions remain a powerful cultural element of world societies. Hence, the world would be better off without any religion.

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread? How does this tie into "Creation vs. Evolution"?

Bad people do bad things regardless of their vise. It's too presumptuous to assume that these events would not have taken place otherwise, but this discussion is for another thread.

 

[James2097]

Bad people do bad things regardless of their vise. It's too presumptuous to assume that these events would not have taken place otherwise

Not presumptuous at all, it makes perfect sense, but yes it belongs in another thread. It just rolled on from how the debate was going (sort of). We (evolutionists) have already won the creation vs evolution debate, so maybe I'm just subconciously trying to get rid of the source of the irrationality now! :LOL: