demo physics discussion

[CodeRedR51]

^^^ Video doesn't work for me.

 

[Raitziger]

Plays fine with me. (must be some youtube server thing as i just uploaded)

 

[Glubags]

Looks like you've nearly got the hang of it... probably a little too much throttle and a little too slow to begin countersteering in those where your angle was very high but you weren't able to prolong them.

 

[CoolColJ]

it just snaps back way too quickly whenever I try to drift with a DFGT wheel. And if you try and counter steer back to prevent the snap back spin, there is way too much resistance...

In LFS if you oversteer, the wheel auto "counter steer" for you and it makes sense, since the front wheels stay in place, while the rear pivots around, you just then have to steer back to prevent the snap back, but you don't get a brickwall type resistance like in the TT

 

[Raitziger]

it just snaps back way too quickly whenever I try to drift with a DFGT wheel. And if you try and counter steer back to prevent the snap back spin, there is way too much resistance...

In LFS if you oversteer, the wheel auto "counter steer" for you and it makes sense, since the front wheels stay in place, while the rear pivots around, you just then have to steer back to prevent the snap back, but you don't get a brickwall type resistance like in the TT

I agree. In that vid car just clicks to high angle and even if i catch, i find my car 90 degrees from right direction and loose all speed. LFS allows realistic drifting moves as you said. It almost feels like PD has programmed some magic force strike you out, if some rules are matched And grass very strange. I mean you can drift in grass very long slides and this magic force won't strike you. I think i should be more diffcult to control slides in slippery grass than tarmac. I think auto "counter streer"(natural tyre positioning) is programmed but it is weak and has very little effect on controlling slides, unlike in real life and LFS for example. I think this all comes more or less to tyre model they use. Suspension modelling seems to be very nice currently.

 

[RedBaron]

I like the new physics very much but only until oversteer situation occur. Then it's completely wrong. Slicks are more friendly than road tyres over the limit and both are almost undriftable. Even G25 FFB is not talking with the player when to countersteer or snapback. It is most surprising with the red road car.

Yes, we FR drivers know about it from the day one but the fanboys liking the oversteer physics that is five times tougher than in real life are convincing us we are just moaners. They will probably start to moan too when they'll have to drive any Ferrari or Lotus Elise or RUF in full game. But they got new toy and are oversatisfied now even when that little Nissan born for fun and slides is acting like '85 Porsche Turbo on wet surface when taken little over the limit. Sad story.

 

[kamkor]

Didn't yet play GT5 Demo, but I hope I will get a chance soon, so this post will be rather general. edit: Keep in mind that in this post I focus mostly on oversteer aspect of simulators.

Hovewer the "kick" of the oversteer seems way overdone on videos. It is very hard to do a quick sharp drift transition in real life (damn you Ueo Katsuhiro), but on gt5p vids it seems as insteed it's hard to do a drift transition that should occur normally.

And controlling oversteer in real life is not hard once you learn to predict weight shift. And I've never ever experienced the snap back during drifting nor going for time attack after wasting easily over 50 tires.

Hovewer, assuming a person has a rwd car in real life. Doesn't have enough experience controlling it in real life (no matter how good you are in simulators, real life takes time to adjust, my way is to think of real life driving as just of another simulator you have to adjust to and it works ), and only stepped the rear ocassionally then I guess that those people may find sims that simulate very hard to control oversteer realistic. I have already seen situation many times before, people claiming live for speed drifting is too easy, saying how good rfactor is (even speaking of standard cars when rfactor was first released), because it punishes you like real life.. The stories of how hard oversteer is coming mostly from people who have only had bad experiences. But fact is, even live for speed oversteer is harder than real life, as it lacks some stability that real life has.

What we've seen so far:

1. a) A person who can't control oversteer in real life yet (lack of experience or lack of faith in skill that isn't there yet maybe, as what comes from simulators is not really skill but knowledge of general car behaviour) can control oversteer in simulator. Then that person assumes that simulator must be too easy if he can do what he can't do in real life. OR if he has a faith (based on videos, other people opinions) in that simulator then he assumes then it is realistic anyway.
1. b) A person who can't control oversteer in real life can't control oversteer well in simulator assumes that this simulator is probably realistic.

2. a) A person who can control oversteer in real life can control oversteer in simulator. The person asumes that simulator is realistic if reactions needed are fairly similar to his real life technique (speaking of more than just "clutch kick works" or "braking technique works" etc.)
2. b) A person who can control oversteer in real life can't control oversteer in simulator even after lots of practice. Then the person assumes the simulator is maybe not so good.

Now the things get even more complicated when we consider the amount of experience in real life and simulators and the order in which experience was aquired.

3. a) The person who can control oversteer first started driving in simulators and then moved on to real life. In most cases I've seen simulators do help in transition to real driving a lot, in drifting, amateour rallies etc. But not always, for example sometimes the driver is just too scared of damaging his car.

3. b) The person who can control oversteer first started driving in real life and then tried some simulators.. I've convinced 2 very very good drifters with notable achievements to buy g25 and try some simulators. Even live for speed which by many seem to be easy was way too hard. One still couldn't do sequence of corners after 2 weeks of practice. Another could do it, but was still a novice.

3. c) Worst case scenario, the person who can't control oversteer in real life tries driving in simulator and can't drive at all - with "my subjects" it always ended in disaster Unless the person was motivated enough to get used to driving in simulator.

And I also don't think pasting other people mistake videos is a good idea. There are too many variables in place, most of the time the driver reaction is bad (how many times the "snap back" looked like a feint drift..), there might be a cerb, slow steering, bad front tires, not constant track surfaces (in worst scenario some parts wet some dry) etc.

So to sum it up:
- What is realistic in simulator is very subjective.

- Experienced driver in real life will rarely find a simulator realistic on first go. Practice and getting used to games and to gaming accessories (ie. wheels) is necessary. When there is a simulator, which most real life experienced subjects on first try (who had no experience in playing games) find realistic to drive and still think it's realistic after months of driving.. Then I believe we will have a real winner. Still a long way to go though, I think..

- People often judge physics based on videos and take other people opinion for granted. Just because some driving instructor on forums tells you it's super hard in real life doesn't mean it will be for you. Just because I tell you it's easy to control oversteer in real life doesn't mean it will be for you etc. Have your own opinion based on your own experiences. If you can't just yet get real experience then you will just have to unfortunately assume which sim is most realistic and fun to you. They all teach general car behaviour after all at least.

- Best person to compare would be one with great experience in both simulators and real life. But it's not always working, because if a person has found his/her favourite simulator, then he/she might use it as a benchmark for a way in which simulation should be done. So the person should also be fairly open minded.

And one more thing. When something feels weird in simulation and people start to search for realistic explanation of that weirdness just to defend game physics engine, then I think it's fair to say that something might in fact be wrong. All simulators have an aspect which gets questioned by community: In live for speed one weirdness is tire heating/cooling, in gt series it always has been low speed physics, in rfactor it often has been unrealistic oversteer, in forza 3 too unforgiving edit: too forgiving oversteer physics etc.

 

[alexpez]

Could the difficulty some are experiencing come from controller or output lag? Im seeing quite a gap between moving my wheel and seeing the on screen wheel move, more than im used to seeing in PC sims.

 

[tony1311]

I like the new physics very much but only until oversteer situation occur. Then it's completely wrong. Slicks are more friendly than road tyres over the limit and both are almost undriftable. Even G25 FFB is not talking with the player when to countersteer or snapback. It is most surprising with the red road car.

Yes, we FR drivers know about it from the day one but the fanboys liking the oversteer physics that is five times tougher than in real life are convincing us we are just moaners. They will probably start to moan too when they'll have to drive any Ferrari or Lotus Elise or RUF in full game. But they got new toy and are oversatisfied now even when that little Nissan born for fun and slides is acting like '85 Porsche Turbo on wet surface when taken little over the limit. Sad story.

👍👍👍

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

I like the new physics very much but only until oversteer situation occur. Then it's completely wrong. Slicks are more friendly than road tyres over the limit and both are almost undriftable. Even G25 FFB is not talking with the player when to countersteer or snapback. It is most surprising with the red road car.

Yes, we FR drivers know about it from the day one but the fanboys liking the oversteer physics that is five times tougher than in real life are convincing us we are just moaners. They will probably start to moan too when they'll have to drive any Ferrari or Lotus Elise or RUF in full game. But they got new toy and are oversatisfied now even when that little Nissan born for fun and slides is acting like '85 Porsche Turbo on wet surface when taken little over the limit. Sad story.

I think you and a few others on this forum forget that a realistic sim will always be harder then real life because lack of g forces and sense of speed.

 

[tony1311]

I think you and a few others on this forum forget that a realistic sim will always be harder then real life because lack of g forces and sense of speed.

There is a diference between 'harder' and 'ten times harder'...

 

[Zer0]

Forget about other games, somebody wants to test how this real life tuto works with the demo?

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

There is a diference between 'harder' and 'ten times harder'...

If gt5 demo is ten times harder then real life then I must be one hell of a race driver lol.. I think N3's is easyer now then prolouge.

 

[tony1311]

If gt5 demo is ten times harder then real life then I must be one hell of a race driver lol.. I think N3's is easyer now then prolouge.

Yes you are.
Yes N3's are easier now than prologue. Prologue on N tires was driving on ice.
Demo on N3's is just driving on wet.

I wonder if the cars will even start on N non wet tires when the wet physics come.

 

[Synwraith]

Yes you are.
Yes N3's are easier now than prologue. Prologue on N tires was driving on ice.
Demo on N3's is just driving on wet.

I'm sure not everyone will agree with me, but in the days just before the demo was released, I spent a little time driving the stock 350Z in prologue on N3s around Daytona Road, and to be honest, the demo is not vastly easier, in fact I find it harder. I struggled desperately with the demo in the first 2 weeks, I am still finding it a great challenge, I just know it a bit better now.

All the best
Maz

 

[Biggles]

- Best person to compare would be one with great experience in both simulators and real life. But it's not always working, because if a person has found his/her favourite simulator, then he/she might use it as a benchmark for a way in which simulation should be done. So the person should also be fairly open minded.

And one more thing. When something feels weird in simulation and people start to search for realistic explanation of that weirdness just to defend game physics engine, then I think it's fair to say that something might in fact be wrong. All simulators have an aspect which gets questioned by community: In live for speed one weirdness is tire heating/cooling, in gt series it always has been low speed physics, in rfactor it often has been unrealistic oversteer, in forza 3 too unforgiving oversteer physics etc.

👍 Exactly right IMO.

Like some other people, I am a big fan of FC & SCC - they feel very different from GT & therefore some GT fans have dismissed them as not being "realistic" because they don't feel like their "benchmark" - GT5P. However, like all sims I have tried, FC & SCC have their strengths & weaknesses - overall, I enjoy the feel of them more than GT5P/D, but I wouldn't claim they are more "realistic", just that they emphasize different aspects of the physics than GT does.

Also, people are pushing much harder in sim racing than even an experienced racer is likely to do IRL - this is particularly true of the GT5TT, where people are trying to wring every hundredth of a second out of their lap time. If they were attempting to push the equivalent car that hard IRL, I would imagine they would find themselves spinning out a lot also.

 

[Stevisiov]

My dad would be good for this discussion then, he has lots of experience in motor sport and he worked at evolution studio's for a few years designing a simulator (which sadly wasn't taken any further). He tried a few fairly well known sims, he wasn't particularly fond of Gran Turismo (prologue) for its simulation side, or GTR (simbin), the two games he rated where Richard Burns rally, and LFS. What exactly this tells us about the GT5 demo isn't much, but I guess its another opinion on the feel of competitors.

 

[tony1311]

I'm sure not everyone will agree with me, but in the days just before the demo was released, I spent a little time driving the stock 350Z in prologue on N3s around Daytona Road, and to be honest, the demo is not vastly easier, in fact I find it harder. I struggled desperately with the demo in the first 2 weeks, I am still finding it a great challenge, I just know it a bit better now.

All the best
Maz

For sure,the 370z on N3s has more grip than the 350z on N3s had on Prologue.

But you are right,it feels more difficult because of the enhanced effect the weight transfer has with the new physics.

That is also wrong though physics-wise ,as the suspension on the 370 in real life is ten times stiffer than the one on the red car. Just switch to the external view and watch the angle the car gets while you slalom on the straight.

 

[Timppaq]

Note that the normal car is not said to be in the stock form. I mean tuning like suspension, chassis etc.. so the comparison to the real version might be meaningless. This could have been made for making it a greater challenge. I'm not saying this is the case, but it might be

 

[IsmokeGT]

Note that the normal car is not said to be in the stock form.

Actually, it does say stock...
"The Gran Turismo 5 Time Trial Challenge will allow players to compete in two time trial events with stock and tuned versions..."
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5147.html

I think the 'stock' version in the TT is just a normal Z, according to the wing, correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not sure the Nismo Z is the 'Tuned' version, but it could be.
http://www.nissanusa.com/configurat...e&mo=2010:370z&next=ipod_landing.zcoupe.Build

 

[Timppaq]

Stock car, stock form - ... who knows what that really means. But you might be right. I know it would be pretty stupid to make it softer etc.. but you never know how they think these things.

 

[Raitziger]

That is also wrong though physics-wise ,as the suspension on the 370 in real life is ten times stiffer than the one on the red car.

Here is again something for you to laugh at (my wobbly moves show suspension work quite well)

Also for my take on comparing it to prologue:
-Drifting is easier with prologue, seem a bit unrealisticly hard.
-Holding car steady at banked corners is easier in new demo
-FFB shaking problem is very minimal compared to prologue

If they fix that oversteer physics glitch, i feel 1:1 steering animation is all i want for GT6

 

[MartyParty]

I believe some of the, lets call it, unpredictable oversteer behavior could be explained by how they have modeled the LSD. It seems that the 370Z is equipped with a viscous limited slip differential manufactured by Torsen.

Since it is viscous it should be a 2-way diff, that is it should work with both throttle on and off. It seems be very effective in the throttle on situation. Launching the car several times with one tire on tarmac and one on grass or painted tarmac I haven't been able to spin one tire before the other they seem to start spinning at precisely the same time. Could someone please verify this?

Furthermore I have not been able to get the inside wheel to spin before the outside wheel in any corner. I have really tried to push it with extreme weight shifts but no effect. Could someone please verify this?

However I have not been able to make the diff to work in the off throttle situation. I have tried complete throttle lift in corners and with tires on different surfaces but no diff-locking effect.

Since the LSD is viscous you would expect it to be a smooth transition from open to closed, and that it would allow some what more "open" behavior compared to a heavy preloaded clutch pack. I sometimes get the feeling I am driving a car with a closed diff. It is hard to get it to turn in; it understeers and when you lose the rear you lose both tires at the same time. Since both tires always seem to go off at the same time it is very difficult to catch. At least on a road car you would anticipate a little more forgiving LSD-setup. You often get at heads up when the inside wheel starts to spin, and have time to catch the car before you lose the outside tire. In GT:TT I always seem to lose both at precisely the same time. You go from grip, to no grip in a single step.

Well this is how I interpret the LSD and the abrupt oversteer behavior. What are your experiences? I have mainly tried the stock car so I am interested to hear if you can you feel any differences between the tuned or stock car in terms of LSD?

 

[RedBaron]

Torsen is present in many other cars and there are no problems with it. It seems to be just bad tyre physics, which has been always GT's physics weakness. They should get rid of that poor N3's, S2's or R1's as they are completely unrealistic. Their materials prove it too when several cars are oscillating between those types to be a little bit realistic in driving behaviour and grip. Every car should be equipped with real type tyres of concrete characteristics. Finally, tyres belong to a car the same way like spring, absorber or gearbox which are already well described and used in the physics engine. It would be probably 1/1000 of other work already spent on this game but it would pay off.

 

[Raitziger]

. I sometimes get the feeling I am driving a car with a closed diff. It is hard to get it to turn in; it understeers and when you lose the rear you lose both tires at the same time.

This was 1st thought as i played the game that diff has 100% lock.

 

[Majin SSJ Eric]

I may be in the minority here but I'm a pad user and I find GT5P to be vastly superior to this new demo in terms of physics. The new demo just seems more arcadey to me (you can saw back and forth at the wheel and maintain control whereas in GT5P you'd be off in a second). I'm also disappointed in the lack of the option to adjust the steering ratio in the new demo. I know Prologue didn't have it either, but I liked its slower ratio better because it made things less jerky. Personally I really hope the final game has more GT5P physics in it than this new demo...

 

[Raitziger]

The new demo just seems more arcadey to me (you can saw back and forth at the wheel and maintain control whereas in GT5P you'd be off in a second).

PAD controls have TC on. Can you turn this off?

Edit: I am currently at the point that i can enjoy drifting in TT demo. I also do not fear anymore that i can not enjoy the new GT5 physics.

 

[Raitziger]

I have found painted tarmac to be unrealisticly slippery like grass
You can see it in my today's drifting video.

 

[Glubags]

^ I guess it all depends on the paint or material used, but that stuff really is very slippery. I've had the rear end of my bike try to swap around on me while changing lanes around a corner, around 45° lean, crossing over the dashed line dividing the two lanes on my side of the highway. I was extremely lucky not to high-side it. Almost got into a tank-slapper saving it as well. Granted the tires were still very cold, but trust me, I'll never put them on that sort of surface again mid-corner.

Have you ever seen an F1 car encounter that material? Even with all the loads of mechanical and aerodynamic grip those cars have, those surfaces just don't give your tires any purchase.

 

[JamboGT]

Also in the time trial I reckon its extra slippery so as to not encourage anyone taking liberties with the run off. I know in some of the F1 games it was much faster to take the run off.