Demo Physics - KY says "nearly the same feel as actually driving"

[Timppaq]

Taking all the things out of the equation that can't be matched between real life & a simulation... it suddenly seems to my eyes (i.e. looks like) as a very solid representation of the real thing.. But that's just my personal opinion. But in a way I'm in a lucky position to hear such a comment from me as I will be the person to drive with those expressions..

 

[IsmokeGT]

I don't disagree with that, in fact I'm in agreement with that statement. It's what I've been saying throughout most of my posts.

We are not discussing "The Real Driving Replicator".

 

[Joey D]

We are not discussing "The Real Driving Replicator".

Neither am I, I'm discussion a comment made by Kaz in which he said, "nearly the same feel as actually driving". Which I'm in disagreement with in not only his game but pretty much all games.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Neither am I, I'm discussion a comment made by Kaz in which he said, "nearly the same feel as actually driving". Which I'm in disagreement with in not only his game but pretty much all games.

It would not be a simulator if it was everything you want. You are taking his comment out of context, as already stated.

Once a word, or phase, is analyzed without all words, or phrases, being analyzed at the same time, there is no way to have a full and complete understanding of what is really being said by that word, or phase, that is in question.

 

[Scaff]

Feeling != Experience. To have a similar feel I'd actually have to feel like I was driving the car. This means vibrations, g-forces, bumps, fear, whatever. Sitting on my chair, in a warm room does not ever remotely give me the same feeling as driving a real car. And even if I spent hundreds of dollars on a rig set up I still would be lacking quite a few elements that are present in real life driving.

Maybe experience wasn't the best choice of a word, but what I was getting at is that you can see how a car might react under X conditions.

Is it really that hard to follow what I'm saying?

For clarity sake:
A video game will never give you the same feeling as driving a car. There are way to many things that can not be simulated. This is my point, which is why I think Kaz's state is wrong.

No its not hard to follow what you are saying, I simply disagree with you.

In my mind you are ascribing your own (rather exacting) definitions of words to another persons, translated, comments. You can't know exactly what was in his mind, or the exact meaning he wanted that word to have (nor can you discount a loss of meaning via translation, yet that is exactly what you are doing.

Given the above I don't personally feel that its possible to be this dogmatic about the intended meaning of a single word.


Regards

Scaff

 

[IsmokeGT]

I disagree, Scaff. We all know when Kaz says "feel", or "feeling", that he means more than nerves telling your brain you are touching something.

When he describes his race around Nurburgring, he says something like he wants to give the same feeling that he gets racing as fast as he can into the game. This has nothing to do with anything physical, but everything emotional, maybe even spiritual in his case.

Whether something was lost in translation is a good point though.

 

[McLaren]

All I have to compare GT5 Prologue with is real life, and I can tell you I have pushed a few cars to and, I'm afraid to say, well beyond their limits, and GT5 Prologue is the closest I've got virtually to the real thing.

Then you obviously haven't played many racing sims if you believe Gran Turismo has gotten you closer than anything else.

 

[myke6699]

I don't want the makers of the game to make false statements. I find it extremely funny that when Dan Greenwalt of Forza fame said something similar people jumped all over it, but when Jesus Kaz says something similar people defend it to the hilt.

Here's a perspective from a race driver (although it's in regards to Prologue): http://ps3.kombo.com/article.php?artid=6055

He (KY) did use the word "nearly" which sums up pretty much what most who's familiar with actual driving: that you can simulate a few things and not the other. As to Dan Greenawalt- once he's raced through the Nordschleife against KY and wins, I'd listen to him

 

[Scaff]

I disagree, Scaff. We all know when Kaz says "feel", or "feeling", that he means more than nerves telling your brain you are touching something.

When he describes his race around Nurburgring, he says something like he wants to give the same feeling that he gets racing as fast as he can into the game. This has nothing to do with anything physical, but everything emotional, maybe even spiritual in his case.

Whether something was lost in translation is a good point though.

My point is that, no we do not 100% know exact what Kaz means when a word he has said in Japanese gets translated to English, translation is a major factor here and we certainly can't state with 100% certainty exactly what he meant by 'Feel' or even if that is an accurate interpretation of what he said.


Scaff

 

[IsmokeGT]

“I feel like I am in a dream, driving as fast as I possibly can. The only time I get in this trance-like state is when I am racing a real car. I want to understand what makes me feel like that, and ultimately feed it back into Gran Turismo 5.” Kaz

Tell me you can't figure out what 'feel' means in this quote? And you think he means 'feel' in a totally different way in an interview about the same thing he was talking about in the quote I posted above? Yeah right!

Point, set, match

 

[WolfRacer543]

What about on this :

Even devices like this aren't reality. In a race car you experience G forces of 2G or more (F1 cars more like 6G in braking). So combined with gravity (1G downward), the total G forces when cornering at 2G is sqrt(2^2 + 1^2) = 2.23G at an angle of atan(1/2) = 27 degrees. No simulator can simulate that, then suddenly jump to, say, 2G braking, then 2G the other way then 1G acceleration.

The only way you can do that is of your simulator is, get this, travelling the exact same course as the track. You might be able to do it in an extremely sensitive and fast responding centrifuge, but then you still need the correct yaw acceleration too, not sure if you could simulate all those things.

 

[Tenacious D]

All driving games in general. I made that clear in my first post and subsequent posts by saying "video games" and not "only GT will never be able to give the feeling of driving".

I think the problem is that you cut a certain arrogant developer several miles of slack, and are rather selective in your outrage.

Then you obviously haven't played many racing sims if you believe Gran Turismo has gotten you closer than anything else.

Mac, I know we occasionally lock horns, and this is sort of one of those times, though I don't really mean to be argumentative. I'm kind of drunk with the Christmas spirit lately, so I kind of get a little carried away with myself sometimes.

Anyhow, I've grown cozy with the PC sim world and bought a few to race with my G25. They do a really good job of replicating the reality of being behind the wheel of a superpowered race car. But... something is lacking with every one of them. There's some kind of passion in Gran Turismo that just isn't there in these games. And with Prologue, it really feels like these other sims. I posted in another thread in this board that it still has a few issues, but really, they seem to be pretty minor ones. Heck, when when Prologue feels like Live For Speed to the point that I haven't touched LFS for months, I think that testifies to a pretty big jump in realism. I should hasten to add that Forza 3 really is a good simmish racer. I know you've gushed about it a bit, but still, there is something about it that's a bit more off than Prologue, maybe the high sure-footedness or something. And that's fine. What gives me headaches are the huge bugs T10 somehow let slither out the door and into my 360. ZOMG, are they drunk or high in Washington all the time??

I don't use all the odd tricks of the trade like machinegun stomping between gas and brake, and I usually just brake and pull around hairpins rather than use a handbrake, and I haven't spun out in an M5 or 911, just an old Supra. But what I have experienced is pretty darn close to both PC sims and real life.

So... hey, in a few hours, we can forget all this board debate stuff and throw a pair of 370Zs around Indy Infield.

 

[Andrew C]

I really don't see how that is nothing but abuse to your body.

 

[jedaye]

Probably can't tell as I'm using the controller and I'm not old enough to drive!

 

[Casio]

Does any car or production car use a G25/27/DFP/DS3 connected via a USB socket as the primary method of input? No. So tell me how it can feel like the real thing?

Lets cut back 10 years. In 1999 IGN were saying of the GT2 Demo.

The cars also seem to react a little quicker to bumps, changes of direction and general joypad input than they did in Gran Turismo, and do so very realistically, making the game feel even more convincing and authentic.

GT5 may feel realistic in regards to GT4, but it doesn't feel realistic to reality.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Even devices like this aren't reality. In a race car you experience G forces of 2G or more (F1 cars more like 6G in braking). So combined with gravity (1G downward), the total G forces when cornering at 2G is sqrt(2^2 + 1^2) = 2.23G at an angle of atan(1/2) = 27 degrees. No simulator can simulate that, then suddenly jump to, say, 2G braking, then 2G the other way then 1G acceleration.

The only way you can do that is of your simulator is, get this, travelling the exact same course as the track. You might be able to do it in an extremely sensitive and fast responding centrifuge, but then you still need the correct yaw acceleration too, not sure if you could simulate all those things.

Well look what we have here folk's, We have our very own James may, honestly i could james may explaining that, in my head while i read it, which makes it very Sleep enducingly awful.
Buy seriously though, Very good read, But, You have to admit it really is impressive, It might not generate Real time G force, but it comes pretty damn close, In order for a simulator to preform real time G forces you would need to be catapulted back and fourth to simulate real time braking and acceleration.

 

[JDMLOVER]

Gran Turismo is supposed to deliver the most realistic driving experience "POSSIBLE" by any means based upon the power of the PS3, I can respect KAZ for that. Only someone with a lack of good common sense should be expecting %100. People either like it or they don't. Just hop in a real race car, and save the over analytical waste of brain power. A person can feel whatever they want, and If PD feels that GT will come close real then that's cool. I just can't wait to try it.

It amazes me how people can defend Dan of T10 also. He was way outta line and arrogant with many comments he made about GT. I'm no bias person about these games. I've owned all Forzas except 3 because my box died. However, I don't think I will need Forza at all when GT comes. I won't even look towards it and it's nothing personal against Forza. Even If I had my 360 and both of them were released at the same time, I'd just get GT and maybe later try F3 if GT didn't deliver. But this demo is great, and it just gets me excited for the full thing.

 

[unv412]

Anyhow, I've grown cozy with the PC sim world and bought a few to race with my G25. They do a really good job of replicating the reality of being behind the wheel of a superpowered race car. But... something is lacking with every one of them. There's some kind of passion in Gran Turismo that just isn't there in these games. And with Prologue, it really feels like these other sims. I posted in another thread in this board that it still has a few issues, but really, they seem to be pretty minor ones. Heck, when when Prologue feels like Live For Speed to the point that I haven't touched LFS for months, I think that testifies to a pretty big jump in realism. I should hasten to add that Forza 3 really is a good simmish racer. I know you've gushed about it a bit, but still, there is something about it that's a bit more off than Prologue, maybe the high sure-footedness or something. And that's fine. What gives me headaches are the huge bugs T10 somehow let slither out the door and into my 360.

I lost my association with PS3 GT5p as the console belonged to a cuz that i had a falling out with so now I race online LFS. Your comments on the simularity between the 2 in physics is quite heartening and makes me miss gt5p even more! I would love to hear the differenses in physics with FM3 as I was seriously considering investing in Xbox.......pity no G25 support!

 

[Raitziger]

I can say GT demo physics are very far from FM3. I can no longer hold slides like i did in forza. If i try drifting, i spin constantly. Driving even harder than it was with GT5. It is nice that they fixed wobblihg problem on the straights for wheels. I do not know which game got it terribly wrong as i do not own 370Z. Strange thing in GT demo was that i did no feel understeer in any way. 370Z turns quite well but wheel did not go light as does in FM3 when car understeers.

im confused!!

 

[phil_2001]

What about the steering wheel? I mean is it realistic really? What FFB levels are realistic you think? Modern cars have very light handling cause of the hydraulic booster on the steering, or what do you call it, even sports cars have it. In GT however the wheel feels harder to turn and simulaton geeks infact like it to be strong FFB, but why? it's not realistic. The steering on a modern sports car is precise and responsive, but not strong like you're training muscles while at it.

 

[phil_2001]

I can say GT demo physics are very far from FM3. I can no longer hold slides like i did in forza. If i try drifting, i spin constantly. Driving even harder than it was with GT5. It is nice that they fixed wobblihg problem on the straights for wheels. I do not know which game got it terribly wrong as i do not own 370Z. Strange thing in GT demo was that i did no feel understeer in any way. 370Z turns quite well but wheel did not go light as does in FM3 when car understeers.

im confused!!

The wheel is light because of the understeer because it loses propper contact with the road thus the wheels go like on ice hence the light steering. If in GT there is no understeer no reason for steering to get light. At least that's what I'm thinking. 370Z actually doesn;t understeer, it's a good sports japanese car that has advanced AI technology in it. Forza 3 on the other hand is not cream of the crop game, although some might think it is.

 

[Seismica]

Then you obviously haven't played many racing sims if you believe Gran Turismo has gotten you closer than anything else.

Its the closest i've got aswell to be honest There are obvious flaws in prologue though, that you can see just by watching videos of the more realistic games.

 

[Scaff]

“I feel like I am in a dream, driving as fast as I possibly can. The only time I get in this trance-like state is when I am racing a real car. I want to understand what makes me feel like that, and ultimately feed it back into Gran Turismo 5.” Kaz

Tell me you can't figure out what 'feel' means in this quote? And you think he means 'feel' in a totally different way in an interview about the same thing he was talking about in the quote I posted above? Yeah right!

The same word used in two different quotes could easily carry different meanings, the one quoted above could mean 'feel' as an emotional response, 'feel' in the quote that started this thread could refer to actually physical feel (as in external stimuli).

Thats without taking into account the rather obvious issue of translation and making the large leap that this is 100% accurate translation of what was originally said.

I've worked in training for over a decade and train delegates for whom English is a second language (this week in fact I have two Russian delegates), and can assure you that literal 'word for word' translations are generally not reliable in terms of accuracy.

Communication and meaning is a highly complex subject and the words used alone only convey a small percentage of the overall meaning, body language, tone, inflection, etc all need to be included before you can even come close to stating that you know 100% what someone means (which is what it appears you are doing here).

Point, set, match

Last time I checked this wasn't a contest, and as the only way to 'win' this would be to get Kaz himself to post and state categorically and without any ambiguity exactly what the meaning of his word were, your a long way from 'Point, set, ,match'.


Scaff

 

[Blitz187]

Even devices like this aren't reality. In a race car you experience G forces of 2G or more (F1 cars more like 6G in braking). So combined with gravity (1G downward), the total G forces when cornering at 2G is sqrt(2^2 + 1^2) = 2.23G at an angle of atan(1/2) = 27 degrees. No simulator can simulate that, then suddenly jump to, say, 2G braking, then 2G the other way then 1G acceleration.

The only way you can do that is of your simulator is, get this, travelling the exact same course as the track. You might be able to do it in an extremely sensitive and fast responding centrifuge, but then you still need the correct yaw acceleration too, not sure if you could simulate all those things.

Im afraid I have to disagree with you... I go to this place here in Holland called Sim World and they have something called the G-Driver simulator... It simulates -3G to +3G (when you brake you get thrown into your seatbelt and when you hit the gas you get a major kick in the bum).... Trust me, 15 minutes in this thing and youre DEAD.... So simulating real life driving is not impossible.... IMO these types of simulators are the closest you'll get to what you might experience/feel in real life...

www.simworld.nl

 

[WolfRacer543]

Im afraid I have to disagree with you... I go to this place here in Holland called Sim World and they have something called the G-Driver simulator... It simulates -3G to +3G (when you brake you get thrown into your seatbelt and when you hit the gas you get a major kick in the bum).... Trust me, 15 minutes in this thing and youre DEAD.... So simulating real life driving is not impossible.... IMO these types of simulators are the closest you'll get to what you might experience/feel in real life...

I dont really see how that's possible... to get 3G of force in braking the simulator would have to be pushing you backward at 3 times the acceleration of gravity. So if you were braking at 3G for 1 seconds, that means the simulator would have to fling you backward at 9.81m/s/s, jerking you backward 13.5 metres (44 feet). Unless the simulator is in a centrifugal chamber.

All that simulator can do is jostle you around at +3 or -3G in tiny little bumps, it can't sustain 3G for several seconds to simulate braking.

The reason I make this point is because all these sims are doing is bumping you around quickly, not simulating the G forces involved in actual racing. Quite possibly the most important feedback in real racing is the driver's arse and feeling the forces involved. Feeling the 2.5G of braking, then the yaw acceleration (rotating) of the car as it turns in and then transitions from 2.5G braking to 2G lateral force, then hitting the throttle and feeling the yaw acceleration again as the car over or understeers.

That's why you'll "never" have a real racing simulator. The most important feedback the driver gets you can't simulate.

 

[Blitz187]

I dont really see how that's possible... to get 3G of force in braking the simulator would have to be pushing you backward at 3 times the acceleration of gravity. So if you were braking at 3G for 1 seconds, that means the simulator would have to fling you backward at 9.81m/s/s, jerking you backward 13.5 metres (44 feet). Unless the simulator is in a centrifugal chamber.

All that simulator can do is jostle you around at +3 or -3G in tiny little bumps, it can't sustain 3G for several seconds to simulate braking.

The reason I make this point is because all these sims are doing is bumping you around quickly, not simulating the G forces involved in actual racing. Quite possibly the most important feedback in real racing is the driver's arse and feeling the forces involved. Feeling the 2.5G of braking, then the yaw acceleration (rotating) of the car as it turns in and then transitions from 2.5G braking to 2G lateral force, then hitting the throttle and feeling the yaw acceleration again as the car over or understeers.

That's why you'll "never" have a real racing simulator. The most important feedback the driver gets you can't simulate.

I'm just going from what they told me and claim it can do, next to my own experience in the machine itself. I honestly cannot say if it really was +/-3G that I was feeling... but there were definitely G-forces there and the 15 minute sessions you spend in it are just incredibly tiring if youre not use to it. There's plenty of clips of that thing on the net... and under braking you get thrown into your seatbelts quite hard... surprised the hell out of me the first time I was in it because Im use to GT where you compensate for this type of thing with your eyes and whats on the screen in terms of visual ques...

 

[Tenacious D]

After spending a half hour with the Time Trial, I have to say it feels pretty good. Make of that what you will.

 

[Blitz187]

After spending a half hour with the Time Trial, I have to say it feels pretty good. Make of that what you will.

Was it the "feel" or "experience" that felt pretty good?

 

[WolfRacer543]

I'm just going from what they told me and claim it can do, next to my own experience in the machine itself. I honestly cannot say if it really was +/-3G that I was feeling... but there were definitely G-forces there and the 15 minute sessions you spend in it are just incredibly tiring if youre not use to it. There's plenty of clips of that thing on the net... and under braking you get thrown into your seatbelts quite hard... surprised the hell out of me the first time I was in it because Im use to GT where you compensate for this type of thing with your eyes and whats on the screen in terms of visual ques...

I dont deny its an impressive system and I'd love to give it a go myself I'm just saying that the only way you can simulate the actual forces you'd feel while racing was if your simulator followed the exact same path as the real car would... it needs to accelerate, brake and turn, it needs to roll pitch and yaw... so basically the only way you could simulate the forces would be if the simulator were moving like a real car (ie. you might as well be driving a real car)

A simulator will never simulate the forces properly... it can't... if it does, its no longer a simulator and its a real car Unless someone figures out a way to simulate inertial forces that doesn't involve accelerating (F=ma, without the "a" ).

 

[SgtWhitten]

With a controller it feels awful. Way to twitchy, its hard to drive it. It flows much better in GT5P.