Do you believe in God?

[Danoff]

So i agree with you Sam48 & Danoff

How can you agree with two people who disagree?

 

[Touring Mars]

If ever there was evidence that the point about parallel lines was vague, then that surely was it.

 

[Sam48]

I still fail to see how this proves god exists.

It doesn't prove God exists. It proves you don't have to ever see, hear, or feel something, to believe it exists.

 

[Famine]

I think I've turned two pages at once here...

Why do parallel lines or gravity prove that you can believe in something without sensing it?

 

[Northstar]

It doesn't prove God exists. It proves you don't have to ever see, hear, or feel something, to believe it exists.

You can prove that parallel lines exist though math though.

 

[buickgnx88]

It doesn't prove God exists. It proves you don't have to ever see, hear, or feel something, to believe it exists.

What if I were to say that I don't believe in infinitely parallel lines?

 

[Duke]

See in theory, you can believe parallel lines exist, but in reality that would mean someone would have to make 2 perfectly straight lines that went on forever. It sounds impossible, yet you could easily imagine it. You can't see it, but you know it's possible.

You follow?

I do. The thing is, I can't easily imagine some sort of supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing being that created the entire universe out of nothingness and designed every molecule of it to be precisely the way he/she/it wanted it to be, and who still knows the state and future of every molecule within that creation.

In other words, I can't easily imagine god at all. So what I think you're saying isn't going to get traction here.

Aside to Dotini - note that I did not say "more powerful", or "more knowledgeable" than humans, because I can easily imagine the existence of other far more advanced species.

 

[niky]

I'll stick with the parallel lines idea, because what it does is prove you don't need to see them to believe in them.

I can't make 2 perfectly parallel lines that go on forever, but I can easily imagine them. In theory they exist, but I've never physically seen them. Even man made segments of 2 parallel lines aren't parallel, because if you extended them as far as possible, they, at some point, would intersect because we aren't perfect.

Still doesn't follow.

Draw two parallel lines. They won't be parallel at a molecular level, but out of a thousand College-educated people of different nationalities, a thousand of them are bound to call them parallel lines. If one doesn't, he's faking it.

Draw a picture of God. Out of a thousand people of different religions, maybe a third will call him that. If you're more picky and draw a picture of Jesus Christ, maybe half will correctly identify him, but very few will acknowledge him as "God".

Does not follow. Does not compute.

 

[Danoff]

It doesn't prove God exists. It proves you don't have to ever see, hear, or feel something, to believe it exists.

You're absolutely right. I don't have to see perfectly parallel lines, or perfect anything for that matter, to believe that it exists... as a thought in my head. Just like I don't have to see God to believe that he exists as a thought in your head.

Are you asking me if I believe that perfectly parallel lines exist outside of my head? For me to believe that I'd have to have some sort of proof that they do. Kinda like I'd need proof that God exists to believe that he exists outside of your head.

 

[CarBastard]

My opinion is absolutely agnostic regarding to god, or indeed any metaphysical phenomenom.

I don't know! It makes sense to me that "X" entity created everything that troughout time became our present reality (In that sense, I believe in theistic evolution) but I think there's no certain way of knowing what it is such entity. Where did that entity come from? How it did it? What is it? Jesus? Alah? I can't know, I'm human, and also I don't care, I'll still live my life. My religious beliefs are that all religions are basically, wrong. I believe life isn't dedicated to serve such creator entity like a slave (Praying instead of acting, obeying, thinking something that others think without any critical process), my life is for my personal enjoyment and fulfillment.

Servants of a religion bring me to another reason why I don't believe in religions, manipulation (Enajenacion in spanish, I don't know the word in english, I think its alienation). After reading Bakunin, Kropotkin, Nietzche, and Huxley, I accept and support the idea that religions are one of the reasons why humanity is so troubled in modern times (In Kropotkin words: "People can follow three roads, two imaginary ones, and a real one. The pub, the church, and the hard path of the social revolution). Being latino-american, I'm proud of my true origins, of my native origins. And being proud of the first men who lived in this land means I can't support the catholic church, simply because they came and killed or stole everything in the name of a fake god. I might not have exactly native beliefs, but having the Sun and the Moon as gods sounds better to me than Jesus/Budha/Anything else, its a more...romantic and naturalist view.

I guess those are my arguments . Feedback is, as always, very much welcome as long as it is polite and constructive.

PS: Apparently late for me to join this thread, you guys are in another discussion. Pardon me .

 

[Sam48]

Still doesn't follow.

Draw two parallel lines. They won't be parallel at a molecular level, but out of a thousand College-educated people of different nationalities, a thousand of them are bound to call them parallel lines. If one doesn't, he's faking it.

Draw a picture of God. Out of a thousand people of different religions, maybe a third will call him that. If you're more picky and draw a picture of Jesus Christ, maybe half will correctly identify him, but very few will acknowledge him as "God".

Does not follow. Does not compute.

Your straying from the point, which, simply, is that you don't have to see, hear, or feel something to believe in it. You know it's possible, but it's never been done. It can't be done, yet you could easily imagine it. ( like parallel lines)

This, in no way, proves God exists. It simply shows how one could believe in God.

 

[Danoff]

This, in no way, proves God exists. It simply shows how one could believe in God.

As a concept. A concept like parallel lines. Not as something that exists outside of thought.

 

[Sam48]

As a concept. A concept like parallel lines. Not as something that exists outside of thought.

On earth, that is.

 

[Danoff]

On earth, that is.

No... at all.

You've given an example of how we can conceive of something that does not exist. You seem to think you have given an example of something that we believe exists outside of pure-thought but that we have no evidence of. This is not correct.

Yes, I believe parallel lines can be thought of. Just like I believe God can be thought of. This does not demonstrate anything about my ability to believe that God or parallel lines exist outside of thought - especially in the absence of evidence.

Edit: Let me try something else. Can you think of a unicorn? Do you believe unicorns exist outside of pure thought? This is the distinction I am making.

 

[Sam48]

No... at all.

You've given an example of how we can conceive of something that does not exist. You seem to think you have given an example of something that we believe exists outside of pure-thought but that we have no evidence of. This is not correct.

Yes, I believe parallel lines can be thought of. Just like I believe God can be thought of. This does not demonstrate anything about my ability to believe that God or parallel lines exist outside of thought - especially in the absence of evidence.

Edit: Let me try something else. Can you think of a unicorn? Do you believe unicorns exist outside of pure thought? This is the distinction I am making.

True, but you can't say it's impossible for someone to physically make parallel lines that go on forever. (don't think this means it's possible to make God on earth though, it's not)

Edit: No, yes I can imagine a unicorn, but on earth, it's not possible. Parallel lines, however, are. (but it's near impossible to make). There's a difference.

 

[Exorcet]

True, but you can't say it's impossible for someone to physically make parallel lines that go on forever. (don't think this means it's possible to make God on earth though, it's not)

Edit: No, yes I can imagine a unicorn, but on earth, it's not possible. Parallel lines, however, are. (but it's near impossible to make). There's a difference.

Give people a few thousand years to explore gene manipulation and I'm sure unicorns wouldn't seem impossible at all.

Parallel lines are possible, but that has nothing to do with them being imaginable.

 

[Danoff]

True, but you can't say it's impossible for someone to physically make parallel lines that go on forever.

I also can't say that it's impossible for God to exist (and I doubt anyone of any persuasion would disagree). But if you're asking me if I believe perfect parallel lines exist in reality, I'll tell you that I'd require evidence. Just like if I asked you whether you believed a unicorn existed you'd tell me that you needed evidence to do so.

 

[Sam48]

I'll never be able to prove either of those, (unicorns or parallel lines) but it's that part of you that knows parallel lines exist that causes people, like us, to keep banging on about it. Because you can't say they don't exist, but yet it's impossible to prove them (in reality) as well. Like God.

 

[Danoff]

I'll never be able to prove either of those, (unicorns or parallel lines) but it's that part of you that knows parallel lines exist that causes people, like us, to keep banging on about it.

...but I don't. Not without evidence.

Because you can't say they don't exist, but yet it's impossible to prove them (in reality) as well. Like God.

That's right... just like God and unicorns you can't say they don't exist and they're impossible to prove. And just like God and unicorns, I don't believe in them without evidence.

 

[Sam48]

I think that's as close to an agreement as we will get. One more question though, how did anyone, or anything, come to be without some sort of "higher power", such as a god.

 

[Northstar]

I think that's as close to an agreement as we will get. One more question though, how did anyone, or anything, come to be without some sort of "higher power", such as a god.

There are 101 pages discussing just that.

Link

 

[Danoff]

I think that's as close to an agreement as we will get. One more question though, how did anyone, or anything, come to be without some sort of "higher power", such as a god.

I don't know.

 

[Dotini]

My opinion is absolutely agnostic regarding to god, or indeed any metaphysical phenomenom.

I don't know! It makes sense to me that "X" entity created everything that troughout time became our present reality (In that sense, I believe in theistic evolution) but I think there's no certain way of knowing what it is such entity. Where did that entity come from? How it did it? What is it? Jesus? Alah? I can't know, I'm human, and also I don't care, I'll still live my life. My religious beliefs are that all religions are basically, wrong. I believe life isn't dedicated to serve such creator entity like a slave (Praying instead of acting, obeying, thinking something that others think without any critical process), my life is for my personal enjoyment and fulfillment.

Servants of a religion bring me to another reason why I don't believe in religions, manipulation (Enajenacion in spanish, I don't know the word in english, I think its alienation). After reading Bakunin, Kropotkin, Nietzche, and Huxley, I accept and support the idea that religions are one of the reasons why humanity is so troubled in modern times (In Kropotkin words: "People can follow three roads, two imaginary ones, and a real one. The pub, the church, and the hard path of the social revolution). Being latino-american, I'm proud of my true origins, of my native origins. And being proud of the first men who lived in this land means I can't support the catholic church, simply because they came and killed or stole everything in the name of a fake god. I might not have exactly native beliefs, but having the Sun and the Moon as gods sounds better to me than Jesus/Budha/Anything else, its a more...romantic and naturalist view.

I guess those are my arguments . Feedback is, as always, very much welcome as long as it is polite and constructive.

PS: Apparently late for me to join this thread, you guys are in another discussion. Pardon me .

Car Bastard, your contribution is actually quite welcome. Many of the members here are hoary with familiarity, and tend to drift off into echo chambers and bunny trails.

I, for one, would be most interested in your interpretation of the Virgin of Guadalupe.

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[CarBastard]

Car Bastard, your contribution is actually quite welcome. Many of the members here are hoary with familiarity, and tend to drift off into echo chambers and bunny trails.

I, for one, would be most interested in your interpretation of the Virgin of Guadalupe.

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

Happy to oblige. The Virgin of Guadalupe is mainly a mexican belief, I'm colombian. However, the Catholi-craze here in my country is vast and we have the Virgin of Chiquinquira, for one example of an interpretation of the Virgin Mary (As far as I know, "Mary" has a lots of interpretations). We even have a statue called "El Milagroso de Buga" ("Buga's miracle maker", Buga is the town where the statue is) which represents Jesus and people believe it actually has healing capabilities. When I was there with my family, the only miracle I found is that people who live in all streets surrouding the main square and the chapel make a living by selling religious images .

 

[Sam48]

I don't know.

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

 

[Duke]

PS: Apparently late for me to join this thread, you guys are in another discussion. Pardon me .

Not too late at all - the original question is still very much open. We're glad to have your input.

 

[CarBastard]

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

I wouldn't. If I go to hell that means people that think like me and are like me will go there too, and if that happens, we'll all get a nice tan and have some very interesting discussions around a campfire . That's my "joke" point of view about hell.

On a more serious note, talking about "heaven and hell" would be a duscussion about "right and wrong", and though it's related to the central question about this thread, it's not what should be discussed here. However, I don't believe in "heaven or hell", since my take on "Good and evil" is very Socratic. All men strive to do good, but the ignorant ones don't do good because they don't know what's good.

 

[Duke]

Edit: No, yes I can imagine a unicorn, but on earth, it's not possible.

What? A horse-like animal with a large horn? Why would that be "not possible" on earth? It's a mammalian carbon-based life form that would be genetically very similar to both existing animals and extinct ancestors of which we have fossil records. How could that be difficult to imagine as living on earth?

Perhaps I'm just missing your point, but this whole line of reasoning is making little sense.

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

I can't answer for danoff, of course, but I do not believe he would. I know I would not - it would invalidate everything I have lived my life for to date.

 

[Exorcet]

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

Can't answer for other people, but if you really wanted to be safe, you'd have to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8

You'd then have to make up more religions (infinite number of them) to cover every kind of possible God, or law that God would have.

BTW, it's my belief that a God as described by Christianity wouldn't send anyone to hell. He'd just forgive. And he certainly wouldn't be so vain as to punish people for not believing even though those people were very good.

God would rather be shunned and ignored by the virtuous than worshipped by sinners, or so my logic tells me.

 

[Public'sTwin]

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

If "God" is willing to accept such a cheap final offering, it doesn't sound like he's very pious.

Why would that be "not possible" on earth? It's a mammalian carbon-based life form that would be genetically very similar to both existing animals and extinct ancestors of which we have fossil records. How could that be difficult to imagine as living on earth?

I believe it's understood that we're referring to the mythic 'horses'—or indeed, any creature—of lore. Anyone could have switched out Unicorn for Minotaur, though your literal interpretation would certainly be plausible, providing of course, Platypuses don't overgrow any potential unicorn territory.

God would rather be shunned and ignored by the virtuous than worshipped by sinners, or so my logic tells me.

Providing, of course, he gets to send them all to hell for that.