Do you believe in God?

[Danoff]

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

Which God would I pray to?

 

[Public'sTwin]

Which God would I pray to?

Hey, if you pray to a Hindu god, at least there's a chance of reincarnation.

 

[Sam48]

Which God would I pray to?

Don't be specific, just pray to God. (Assume there's only 1 God)

 

[Dotini]

The thing is, I can't easily imagine some sort of supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing being that created the entire universe out of nothingness and designed every molecule of it to be precisely the way he/she/it wanted it to be, and who still knows the state and future of every molecule within that creation.

...I can't easily imagine god at all.

Aside to Dotini - note that I did not say "more powerful", or "more knowledgeable" than humans, because I can easily imagine the existence of other far more advanced species.

It's likewise above my pay grade and my imagination to describe or believe in, let alone prove the existence of the super-god Duke has described above. So let us lower our expectations for a moment, down to the level of a power "higher than Man".

It is a full, true and certain fact that there exists a power above that of Man. How do I know? I know empirically, by direct first person experience. I was there and I saw it. It was no hallucination, because numerous other unrelated people both at the scene and a fair distance away saw and reported the exact same thing.

Where did this occur? I was at the ideal place for an experience that stretches the bounds of reality, a true "Twilight Zone", a place that blends together sky, water, earth, night and day to a tee. It was twilight at my family's semi-remote fishing cabin on Hood Canal in Washington State. It is a unique cabin that is supported on stilts above a bulkhead on the beach, and has a deck where I was perched that is cantilevered out over the salt water at high tide. So I was literally suspended between air, water and earth, at twilight. The perfect time and place for a liminal experience.

I was 14 years old, and it was late summer of 1963. My 12 year old brother first pointed it out. We saw a large, glowing ball of white light moving slowly toward us over the water. Judging by the width of the Hood Canal and the perspective provided by the Olympic Mountains just across the west side, it was a few hundred feet in altitude and a few hundred feet away. The object seemed to be 30-40 feet in diameter, and was an oblate spheroid, or slightly flattened on the bottom. Presently, the object began to "give birth", to morph and divide, or to somehow create new objects from within itself, such that there finally numbered 7 or 8 objects all of equal size and intensity, all glowing but with different colors, including orange, green and blue. Silently the objects maneuvered in a geometric dance above us in the sky, making right angle turns in saw-tooth fashion, all without the faintest trace of a noise or sound. After a lengthy period of time, say 20-25 minutes, the objects slowly gathered back together again into one object, and finally disappeared. Not went away. Disappeared.

The feeling involved in seeing this display was one of awe and wonder with overtones of fear and respect. It was a truly commanding presence that could not be denied. The sighting of these glowing objects by my family and others in nearby small communities is open to interpretation, but the religious interpretation is certainly one to be entertained. The term "numinous" comes readily to mind.

Neither I nor my family is now nor has ever been religious. But believe you me, we were mightily impressed and have never forgotten our encounter with what we were all completely convinced was a power "higher than Man".

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Danoff]

Don't be specific, just pray to God. (Assume there's only 1 God)

Why should I assume that there's only 1 God? Many religions on earth account for multiple deities. In some cases it would be better for me to not attempt to falsely pray on my deathbed out of a selfish desire to avoid some sort of hell. Even with Christianity it would do no good to pray just-in-case.

The bottom line is... no, I would not pray to any god or gods on my deathbed out of some misguided attempt to cover my ass. If there is a god or gods, I find it incredibly unlikely that humanity knows much about it/them. So my prayer would be a complete waste of time and would undermine many of my principles.


Edit: Anyway what does this have to do with the fact that nobody knows where our reality comes from?

 

[Exorcet]

Don't be specific, just pray to God. (Assume there's only 1 God)

Might anger Olympus, so it wouldn't help your chances. And if God didn't care if you knew him or not, it would seem reasonable to assume that he wouldn't care what you believed.

 

[Duke]

Don't be specific, just pray to God. (Assume there's only 1 God)

A) Why would you assume there is only 1 god? If you allow that 1 might exist, you have to allow that an infinite number might exist. So how do you pick the right 1?

B) Why would you assume that the supposed God would not be even more angered by this deathbed appeal than he would be by not believing in him at all? Certainly in light of Jehovah's infantile behaviour depicted in the Old Testament, this seems equally likely. After all, simple ignorance might be forgiven, but willful cynicism could be worthy of flaming perdition.

 

[Sam48]

Anyway what does this have to do with the fact that nobody knows where our reality comes from?

Because if you don't know where reality came from, it would increase the chances of the possibility of God.

@Duke
@Exorcet

If you pray to God (no name, no nothing, just God) you basically cover all of them. (except roman gods and indian and pagan gods)

 

[Exorcet]

Because if you don't know where reality came from, it would increase the chances of the possibility of God.

Not really. The only way to increase the likelyhood of God is evidence.

If you pray to God (no name, no nothing, just God) you basically cover all of them. (except roman gods and indian and pagan gods)

But then, you don't need to follow a specific religion do you? And then, the rule that you must believe in God to be saved can be tossed out.

 

[Sam48]

Not really. The only way to increase the likelyhood of God is evidence.

O.K. then, so where did reality come from? I would call the fact that all non-god believers can't figure out where reality came from as evidence.

 

[Exorcet]

O.K. then, so where did reality come from?

I don't know.

How does that answer increase the likelihood of God's existence?


If I answered "Big Bang", how would that decrease the likelihood of God's existence?

 

[Sam48]

Not really. The only way to increase the likelyhood of God is evidence.




But then, you don't need to follow a specific religion do you? And then, the rule that you must believe in God to be saved can be tossed out.

You asked what god to pray to, so I gave a logical answer. Being a christian, I would pray to the christian God.

I don't know.

How does that answer increase the likelihood of God's existence?


If I answered "Big Bang", how would that decrease the likelihood of God's existence?

So where did the "big bang" come from? Who caused it? What caused it?

Sorry for double post, how do I merge quotes after pressing the edit button?

 

[Live_Fr0m_NY]

I think religion in itself is a bunch of BS... No offense but religion was created as a scare tactic, so the church can rule the holy land with an iron fist. As far as where we come from... i dont think we will ever know to be honest... Evolution is the most logical reasoning behind this and there has been no actaul evidence that would support any sort of supernatural "god" or ghosts or all this other BS people believe in...

Personally i dont believe in a god, but i feel like there has to be something behind all of this...

 

[Danoff]

Because if you don't know where reality came from, it would increase the chances of the possibility of God.

If I ask you where your shirt came from (don't look at the tag) and you tell me you don't know - does that increase the probability that it was made in America? No. China? No. It doesn't change the answer in the slightest.

There is an answer as to where our reality came from. Whether or not I know it does not change it. A corollary to this is that whether or not I know where reality comes from does not change the probability that there is a God. God might not have directly created our reality, or could exist completely independently of our reality. Even if I were to tell you where our reality came from, you could claim that the evidence I base my answer on was placed there by God to test me.

So you're wrong two ways:

1) Whether I know where reality came from does not change where it came from.
2) Whether I know where reality came from has no bearing on whether there is a supreme being.

Additionally - neither of us knows where reality came from, though only one of us is honest enough with himself to admit that.

If you pray to God (no name, no nothing, just God) you basically cover all of them. (except roman gods and indian and pagan gods)

ie: Except for most of them - especially if you allow for the fact that there might be a god or gods that nobody on earth has ever learned of.

 

[Famine]

Because if you don't know where reality came from, it would increase the chances of the possibility of God.

Only if you accept that any answer beats no answer. And if we did that, we'd know nothing.

O.K. then, so where did reality come from? I would call the fact that all non-god believers can't figure out where reality came from as evidence.

Not knowing something is not evidence for the intervention of a deity.

You asked what god to pray to, so I gave a logical answer.

There is no logical answer. Allow me to demonstrate:

Being a christian, I would pray to the christian God.

May I enquire if you read and assessed all holy books before using logic to determine Christianity as correct? Did you also read and assess all the differences in Christian scripture to determine that your particular sect thereof was the correct one?

Or are you a Christian because you parents/friends/teachers are Christian and you just happened to gravitate (no pun intended) towards it?

As Duke said, if you're going to allow for the possibility of 1 god, you have to allow for the possibility of an infinite number of them with no way of knowing which is the right one. Logic... doesn't come into it.

 

[Sam48]

I believe in 1, and only 1, God. As you can see, I'm getting cut down by all of you. I believe God created our reality, and when I die I will probably go to heaven.

Like a congressman once said: God is in the back of everyones head saying "I am here"

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I think we're starting to dance around a pretty verbose rehashing of the god-of-the-gaps debate, and it's to be expected that with an ever-smaller gap to operate in, the faithful will retreat to what appears to be the most defensible position - "Well, you can't explain where we came from; my explanation is the only one, so I'm right". This will go on forever. I asked the same basic question in the Creation thread so I might as well ask it here. Instead of "attacking the gaps", I'd like to hear some positive arguments for the existence of God. Faith is all well and good as a justification for your belief if you intend to follow it unquestioningly, but personally, I'd think that if I was going to weave the very fabric of my life around a preexisting belief system, I'd seek out SOMETHING to corroborate its authority.

I believe in 1, and only 1, God. As you can see, I'm getting cut down by all of you. I believe God created our reality, and when I die I will probably go to heaven.

Like a congressman once said: God is in the back of everyones head saying "I am here"

Would you feel so personally slighted if we disagreed about something like taste in music, favorite color, or even politics? I doubt it.

It's just this sort of inbuilt touchiness about religion in particular that makes it so hard to discuss in a public forum.

Yes, we're criticizing something you've built your life around, but shouldn't something that important be the one thing in your life that you critically evaluate the most thoroughly?

 

[homeforsummer]

I think that's as close to an agreement as we will get. One more question though, how did anyone, or anything, come to be without some sort of "higher power", such as a god.

I actually physically facepalmed with that comment. There's a whole thread on the subject of creation and evolution. I strongly suggest you give it a read if you truly believe there is no other reason for our existance than a God.

That's what I thought. So would you pray to God before you died, just incase he does exist so as to avoid going to hell?

I've mentioned it before, probably in this thread, that if God is apathetic enough that he doesn't care if you're a non-believer throughout your whole life as long as you recant on your death bed, then he clearly doesn't even believe strongly enough in himself for me to bother with believing in him.

 

[Danoff]

I believe in 1, and only 1, God. As you can see, I'm getting cut down by all of you.

You started this discussion by claiming that I have faith in parallel lines. You were shown incorrect. You then attempted to convince me that since I do not know how the universe was created, I should believe in God - I carefully explained to you why this was not the case. Then you advocated false prayer on my deathbed just-in-case. Not only did I show you that this was completely impractical and unlikely to yield any results, but I indicated that even your own religion would not recognize this kind of dishonest attempt at salvation.

Finally, you have moved to a simple assertion of your own beliefs:

I believe God created our reality, and when I die I will probably go to heaven.

A) You have no basis for believing a supreme being exists
B) You have no basis for believing there is only one
3) You have no basis for believing God created our reality
D) You have no basis for believing there is a heaven
5) You have no basis for believing that if there were a heaven, you'd have any idea how to get into it. For all you know, you need to blow up the infidels.

Each of these needs to be established independently for your claim to be supported. Good luck.

 

[Dotini]

I'd like to hear some positive arguments for the existence of God.

Post #1384 is as close as it gets.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I've mentioned it before, probably in this thread, that if God is apathetic enough that he doesn't care if you're a non-believer throughout your whole life as long as you recant on your death bed, then he clearly doesn't even believe strongly enough in himself for me to bother with believing in him.

Likewise, if this were a legitimate way to enter heaven, consider a hypothetical scenario where the Christian god happens to be the right one to pray to:

Hitler is in the bunker and the Russians are overhead. Just before he and Eva Braun bite into their cyanide capsules, Hitler has a genuine, honest, divine confessional experience and accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. He goes to heaven.

A few hundred miles to the east inside the gates at Birkenau, where untold numbers have already died, thousands of Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals continue to die from disease and the aftereffects of starvation and confinement. The vast majority of these poor souls probably led quite decent, honorable lives. They are all burning in hell, as Hitler smiles down from above.

Tell me, what sort of just God would allow even the possibility of such a scenario, despite how unlikely it may be?

I'll personally NOT be hedging my bets on the deathbed, although if the book of Job tells us anything, it's that God LOVES a good bet, especially if the stakes are really bloody.

 

[Joey D]

If you pray to God (no name, no nothing, just God) you basically cover all of them. (except roman gods and indian and pagan gods)

Guess it sucks that if I was going to pray I'd send my prayers to Odin and Thor doesn't it? Polytheistic religions have just as much of a chance of being right as monotheistic religions.

 

[Sam48]

A) You have no basis for believing a supreme being exists
B) You have no basis for believing there is only one
3) You have no basis for believing God created our reality
D) You have no basis for believing there is a heaven
5) You have no basis for believing that if there were a heaven, you'd have any idea how to get into it. For all you know, you need to blow up the infidels.

Each of these needs to be established independently for your claim to be supported. Good luck.

In your mind then, what would be a logical basis?

 

[Danoff]

In your mind then, what would be a logical basis?

Evidence, testability, repeatability.

If a dude dressed in a while robe and a beard showed up and did a press conference in which he demonstrated undeniable powers (like blood rain and locusts and stuff) and then claimed that he was the one and only God - that we were his creation, and proceeded to recite the bible. I'd probably be willing to check the first one off of that list. But only the first one.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

In your mind then, what would be a logical basis?

Forgive me for appearing to answer for Danoff, but I think this is important.

There isn't one.

That's our whole point. If there WERE logical basis (demonstrable evidence) to believe in a higher being, it would cease to be a god, as we know the concept. It would simply be a higher being.

 

[Dotini]

In your mind then, what would be a logical basis?

If you had a religious experience, i.e., you had a direct first person contact with God or his emissaries (angels), then you could have a logical reason for belief in God.

Have you in fact had such an experience?


Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Sam48]

Evidence, testability, repeatability.

If a dude dressed in a while robe and a beard showed up and did a press conference in which he demonstrated undeniable powers (like blood rain and locusts and stuff) and then claimed that he was the one and only God - that we were his creation, and proceeded to recite the bible. I'd probably be willing to check the first one off of that list. But only the first one.

My only basis then is the fact that where all alive. Beyond that, I'd probably resort to the parallel lines theory.

Any of you God believers please feel free to chip in.

 

[Joey D]

If you had a religious experience, i.e., you had a direct first person contact with God or his emissaries (angels), then you could would have a logical reason for belief in God.

Have you in fact had such an experience?


Respectfully,
Dotini

Even then, religious experiences can be fabricated or can be the result of something completely unrelated (drugs, dream, psychiatric disorder etc). I'm not say it isn't possible for someone to have contact with a supernatural being, what I am doubting is that it can be proven to be real.

 

[Danoff]

If you had a religious experience, i.e., you had a direct first person contact with God or his emissaries (angels), then you could would have a logical reason for belief in God.

Once again, you're talking about step 1. And that evidence wouldn't cut it for me - too easily a hallucination or a mistake... and I mean literally wouldn't cut it for me. As in, if I saw god one night and he talked to me I would wonder why I had hallucinated.

My only basis then is the fact that where all alive. Beyond that, I'd probably resort to the parallel lines theory.

Since I debunked the parallel lines nonsense you're left with only the fact that we exist. So your evidence that you're going to heaven is that there is a reality - do you really think that's enough for belief?

 

[Dotini]

Once again, you're talking about step 1. And that evidence wouldn't cut it for me - too easily a hallucination or a mistake... and I mean literally wouldn't cut it for me. As in, if I saw god one night and he talked to me I would wonder why I had hallucinated.

Assume you had contact with a numinous being of light, and you were overcome with awe, delight, joy and fear, the full spectrum of religious emotions. Further assume that you were accompanied by your brothers and sisters and they had the same feelings. Further take it that something true and important were vouchsafed to you. Could you then find it in your heart to reconsider?