Do you believe in God?

[Sam48]

Once again, you're talking about step 1. And that evidence wouldn't cut it for me - too easily a hallucination or a mistake... and I mean literally wouldn't cut it for me. As in, if I saw god one night and he talked to me I would wonder why I had hallucinated.



Since I debunked the parallel lines nonsense you're left with only the fact that we exist. So your evidence that you're going to heaven is that there is a reality - do you really think that's enough for belief?

No, I'm going to heaven because I believe in God, and the reality he created around me.

Because you seem so fixed to the thought that God doesn't exist, what would it take for you to believe in God?

 

[Danoff]

Assume you had contact with a numinous being of light, and you were overcome with awe, delight, joy and fear, the full spectrum of religious emotions. Further assume that you were accompanied by your brothers and sisters and they had the same feelings. Could you then find it in your heart to reconsider?

If that happened, I might check the first one off the list, though I certainly wouldn't expect others to believe me.

A) You have no basis for believing a supreme being exists
B) You have no basis for believing there is only one
3) You have no basis for believing God created our reality
D) You have no basis for believing there is a heaven
5) You have no basis for believing that if there were a heaven, you'd have any idea how to get into it. For all you know, you need to blow up the infidels.

Each of these needs to be established independently for your claim to be supported. Good luck.

Don't see how any of the others are changed.

 

[homeforsummer]

what would it take for you to believe in God?

For him to personally appear on my doorstep and prove without any shadow of a doubt that he was actually God by performing a miracle. And the miracle had better be pretty damn good.

 

[Jim Prower]

So where did the "big bang" come from? Who caused it? What caused it?

Sorry for double post, how do I merge quotes after pressing the edit button?

Actually, physicists are saying that two dimensions collided, and made matter.

Yeah, sounds like an asspull to me, too.

 

[Joey D]

And the miracle had better be pretty damn good.

Like turning water into funk?



But I think that's pretty much what every non-believer is in the same boat and we all pretty much require the same amount of evidence. For me to believe fully in any supernatural being they'd have to show up and do something that could not be done through any other physical means.

 

[CarBastard]

A) You have no basis for believing a supreme being exists
B) You have no basis for believing there is only one
3) You have no basis for believing God created our reality
D) You have no basis for believing there is a heaven
5) You have no basis for believing that if there were a heaven, you'd have any idea how to get into it. For all you know, you need to blow up the infidels.

Each of these needs to be established independently for your claim to be supported. Good luck.

I do believe in #A. And my logical basis is questioning. Knowledge is having answers, and answers are found trough questions. Science is devoted to finding questions that find the answers of our reality, so I guess I can begin my questioning with the Big Bang. So, What caused the Big Bang? A couple of molecules (I don't quite remember how the Big Bang happened, as I recall it was a clash between some molecules). What caused that couple of molecules? ________________ (I beg for help of someone that knows more about the Big Bang than me ) What caused that ________________?
You might say those molecules were caused by "God", but then you should ask yourself "And what created "God"? And in that final question is where my understanding, and I believe the understanding of most humans, finishes.

Every road has a beggining, and if you believe in life you have to believe on the beggining of life. Surely, it has to be a powerful entity. But if you believe firmly in that entity, it's only logical to ask yourself "Where did that entity came from?"

But, I don't have basis to believe in #B, #D, and Letter 5, and in fact, I don't believe in them .

 

[Dotini]

If that happened, I might check the first one off the list, though I certainly wouldn't expect others to believe me.

If that happened, your life would be profoundly changed forever. Everything would change. You would begin a journey of discovery in an wholly new direction. You would be a new and different man. It doesn't matter what others think. You are not in a popularity contest. It's all about your personal life, its experiences and your development as a person.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

For him to personally appear on my doorstep and prove without any shadow of a doubt that he was actually God by performing a miracle. And the miracle had better be pretty damn good.

I still have to maintain that even if this were to happen, the very physical manifestation of such an entity would make it "not-God". Belief in God AS God is only sustainable because 'he' DOES purportedly stay behind the curtain. Were he to step out and perform a miracle, he'd simply be what Carl Sagan described - an entity with capabilities so sufficiently advanced that they appear to be magic. That's certainly not a foundation for the belief that such an entity created us and maintains a gilded kingdom in the afterlife.

 

[Danoff]

Because you seem so fixed to the thought that God doesn't exist, what would it take for you to believe in God?

I don't totally know what you're asking. If you're asking what it would take for me to believe in a supreme being (and I use the term "believe" loosely and colloquially here), it would simply be a being demonstrating abilities that are literally super-natural - in otherwords they'd need to have no natural explanation.

If you're asking what it would take me to believe in YOUR God, and all of the mythological baggage that comes with him... well I'm not sure it's possible. Not only would Jesus himself have to return to earth, perform miracles, claim that the bible was correct (and answer questions about discrepancies) - but he would also have to demonstrate that science is wrong about the origins of the solar system and universe. It would be fairly technical, but he'd have to explain just exactly why we don't know what we think we do know - and show how direct creation is not only possible, but demonstrable. Then he'd have to give me a vision of heaven and hell, explain clearly what is required to get there. And then I'd have to spend a lot of time making sure I wasn't in the matrix and that nobody was trying to play a trick on me - because waaay too many things in my understanding would have changed all at once.

Like I said, I'm not sure it's possible (short of wiping my brain and replacing it with yours) - even for a supreme being.

 

[Dotini]

I still have to maintain that even if this were to happen, the very physical manifestation of such an entity would make it "not-God". Belief in God AS God is only sustainable because 'he' DOES purportedly stay behind the curtain. Were he to step out and perform a miracle, he'd simply be what Carl Sagan described - an entity with capabilities so sufficiently advanced that they appear to be magic. That's certainly not a foundation for the belief that such an entity created us and maintains a gilded kingdom in the afterlife.

Reportedly, god does not frequently make personal cameo appearances, but rather employs messengers. They lack free will. You may find yourself wrestling with one some day. Fortunately, you seem to have a pretty strong will!

 

[Sam48]

I don't totally know what you're asking. If you're asking what it would take for me to believe in a supreme being (and I use the term "believe" loosely and colloquially here), it would simply be a being demonstrating abilities that are literally super-natural - in otherwords they'd need to have no natural explanation.

If you're asking what it would take me to believe in YOUR God, and all of the mythological baggage that comes with him... well I'm not sure it's possible. Not only would Jesus himself have to return to earth, perform miracles, claim that the bible was correct (and answer questions about discrepancies) - but he would also have to demonstrate that science is wrong about the origins of the solar system and universe. It would be fairly technical, but he'd have to explain just exactly why we don't know what we think we do know - and show how direct creation is not only possible, but demonstrable. Then he'd have to give me a vision of heaven and hell, explain clearly what is required to get there. And then I'd have to spend a lot of time making sure I wasn't in the matrix and that nobody was trying to play a trick on me - because waaay too many things in my understanding would have changed all at once.

Like I said, I'm not sure it's possible - even for a supreme being.

So you believe everything in the universe was purely by chance. All the way down to the atoms that hold you together.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

 

[Joey D]

So you believe everything in the universe was purely by chance. All the way down to the atoms that hold you together.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Occam's Razor, what's more logical? That everything happened by chance or that a supreme being exist outside the realm of the universe and crafted everything from nothing?

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Reportedly, god does not frequently make personal cameo appearances, but rather employs messengers. They lack free will. You may find yourself wrestling with one some day. Fortunately, you seem to have a pretty strong will!

So long as an inflatable swimming pool full of baby oil isn't involved, bring it on!

You made a point earlier about noumenal experience that I missed in the slew of posts today. Although I'm not sure it's strictly "noumenal" since you claim to have actually perceived what you describe, and while I can't speak to the veracity of your claim since I didn't witness it, there's a valuable point to be made here.

Several proponents of "our side" of the religion debate have made this point before - Religion has so entrenched itself in society that it has a virtual monopoly on dealing with intangible experience. The fringe outliers claim such a small share and are so factually unsupportable that there's no real challenge to its grip.

It's become impossible, then, to have a productive dialectic regarding what people might call "supernatural" or "spiritual" experience without it getting cluttered up by religious claptrap.

Do I personally hold much stock in such experience? No, I don't, but I can point to many people I've met who have gained great solace from such things. The philosopher Sam Harris likes to point to meditation as an example. It can be performed in a completely un-religious fashion despite what Eastern religion might tell you, and is neurobiologically indistinguishable from either religious meditation or prayer. One can purportedly use it to gain great respite from anxiety and gain great insight into human perception, and the best part is that it can't be used to start wars over tiny insignificant patches of land.

Once again, it's not really my cup of tea, but it's a discussion that ought to be had without interference from religion.

Oh, and this is for Joey - you might find this interesting given your quip about hallucinogens. Historians and Theologians agree that the book of Revelation was written on an island in the Mediterranean (the name escapes me) that is VERY suspiciously rich in naturally-ocurring psylocibe mushrooms.

 

[tyl0r_r]

No. I don't.

 

[Danoff]

So you believe everything in the universe was purely by chance.

Nope. Not sure what makes you think that.

 

[Jim Prower]

Occam's Razor, what's more logical? That everything happened by chance or that a supreme being exist outside the realm of the universe and crafted everything from nothing?

That's just it...our universe was, according to the eggheads, created from something outside our universe..they say it was two of their theoretical dimensions colliding.

 

[Danoff]

That's just it...our universe was, according to the eggheads, created from something outside our universe..they say it was two of their theoretical dimensions colliding.

The "eggheads" have a number of theories - but none of them have really taken hold. Science has not explained where the big bang came from.

 

[CarBastard]

So long as an inflatable swimming pool full of baby oil isn't involved, bring it on!

You made a point earlier about noumenal experience that I missed in the slew of posts today. Although I'm not sure it's strictly "noumenal" since you claim to have actually perceived what you describe, and while I can't speak to the veracity of your claim since I didn't witness it, there's a valuable point to be made here.

Several proponents of "our side" of the religion debate have made this point before - Religion has so entrenched itself in society that it has a virtual monopoly on dealing with intangible experience. The fringe outliers claim such a small share and are so factually unsupportable that there's no real challenge to its grip.

It's become impossible, then, to have a productive dialectic regarding what people might call "supernatural" or "spiritual" experience without it getting cluttered up by religious claptrap.

Do I personally hold much stock in such experience? No, I don't, but I can point to many people I've met who have gained great solace from such things. The philosopher Sam Harris likes to point to meditation as an example. It can be performed in a completely un-religious fashion despite what Eastern religion might tell you, and is neurobiologically indistinguishable from either religious meditation or prayer. One can purportedly use it to gain great respite from anxiety and gain great insight into human perception, and the best part is that it can't be used to start wars over tiny insignificant patches of land.

Once again, it's not really my cup of tea, but it's a discussion that ought to be had without interference from religion.

Oh, and this is for Joey - you might find this interesting given your quip about hallucinogens. Historians and Theologians agree that the book of Revelation was written on an island in the Mediterranean (the name escapes me) that is VERY suspiciously rich in naturally-ocurring psylocibe mushrooms.

I found your comment interesting, and reminds me of what I wanted to say about Dotini's experience. It's true experiences that defy believe are hard to prove, and they are contaminated with religion as soon as someone even thinks about them. Dotini, I do not doubt of your claim, but I think it might be a natural phenomenom. However, in my point of view, nature is tremendously rich and beautiful and I have experimented times of relaxation and pondering () while walking trough some of the beautiful landscaps that are present in my country, I could define them as a religious experience given my point of view about Creatin/Evolution. I do praise the nature as an expression of whatever superior entity is responsible for our existance.

About the Hallucinogens, it's also a strong theory that Heraclitus (One of my influences) wrote some of his works trough the influences of mushrooms.

EDIT:

The "eggheads" have a number of theories - but none of them have really taken hold. Science has not explained where the big bang came from.

I support this (already explained my take on this in a comment in this same page) 👍.

 

[Joey D]

Oh, and this is for Joey - you might find this interesting given your quip about hallucinogens. Historians and Theologians agree that the book of Revelation was written on an island in the Mediterranean (the name escapes me) that is VERY suspiciously rich in naturally-ocurring psylocibe mushrooms.

I think I need to do some research on this, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the heads up.

That's just it...our universe was, according to the eggheads, created from something outside our universe..they say it was two of their theoretical dimensions colliding.

From how I understand it all the matter that is in the universe was in one, very small singularity and it just popped (I wouldn't call it a bang as there was no air to have sound waves travel through). Nothing was created, it just was there. Although I could be off base. I think Famine or TM might be able to chime in with the Big Bang better than I can.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

So you believe everything in the universe was purely by chance. All the way down to the atoms that hold you together.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

It's misleading to claim that things as complex as the universe happen 'by chance', even if one doesn't believe in God.

Things develop in the ways they do because ordered laws "govern" their behavior. Science tries to understand these laws. Religion gets a headache and says "Owwie... GOD!"

The best example of this is drawn (unsurprisingly) from the Creation/Evolution debate. Creationists say it's absurd to believe the staggering variety and complexity of life developed by "chance", but evolution by natural selection is exactly the OPPOSITE of chance. It describes a very gradual process by which individual members of species with favorable traits are more likely to survive and spread their genetic material. Thereby, it doesn't happen by chance, it happens out of simple inevitability.

So esssentially, the probability of the universe as it is today existing exactly as it does WITHOUT gradual development is so astronomically low as to be a joke. However if one considers that it developed over vast stretches of time in countless gradual, probable steps, strictly ordered by knowable laws, it's quite easy to grasp.

 

[Sam48]

It's misleading to claim that things as complex as the universe happen 'by chance', even if one doesn't believe in God.

Things develop in the ways they do because ordered laws "govern" their behavior. Science tries to understand these laws. Religion gets a headache and says "Owwie... GOD!"

When I say "by chance", all I'm saying is that it wasn't created by a "higher power" so to speak.

 

[Dotini]

I found your comment interesting, and reminds me of what I wanted to say about Dotini's experience. It's true experiences that defy believe are hard to prove, and they are contaminated with religion as soon as someone even thinks about them. Dotini, I do not doubt of your claim, but I think it might be a natural phenomenom. However, in my point of view, nature is tremendously rich and beautiful and I have experimented times of relaxation and pondering () while walking trough some of the beautiful landscaps that are present in my country, I could define them as a religious experience given my point of view about Creatin/Evolution. I do praise the nature as an expression of whatever superior entity is responsible for our existance.

About the Hallucinogens, it's also a strong theory that Heraclitus (One of my influences) wrote some of his works trough the influences of mushrooms.

Very thoughtful and apposite remarks here. In another context (see Aliens thread) I have also come to the conclusion that my experiences were with a natural, Earth-bound, albeit intelligent phenomenon.

Note to all readers: If, in the unfortunate event you come into contact with what might appear to psychic, paranormal, extraterrestrial or religious phenomena (all are related, in my view), you are best advised to run, not walk, in the opposite direction. I can assure you that the phenomena, though rare, do in fact exist, and are mostly not good. Do not toy with it, do not poke the bear.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[CarBastard]

Very thoughtful and apposite remarks here. In another context (see Aliens thread) I have also come to the conclusion that my experiences were with a natural, Earth-bound, albeit intelligent phenomenon.

Note to all readers: If, in the unfortunate event you come into contact with what might appear to psychic, paranormal, extraterrestrial or religious phenomena (all are related, in my view), you are best advised to run, not walk, in the opposite direction. I can assure you that the phenomena, though rare, do in fact exist, and are mostly not good. Do not toy with it, do not poke the bear.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

That advise, though good, doesn't work with a stubborn and inquisitive little kid like me . I would go close to the phenomena and play with it a little way, who knows, maybe it would lead me to find an answer to this thread .

 

[tyl0r_r]

When I say "by chance", all I'm saying is that it wasn't created by a "higher power" so to speak.

Well "by chance" and "not created by higher power" are not synonymous and you should not use them as if they were. Honestly, by chance is a silly phrase. If I were incredibly religious I could say the world occurred by chance: God, being all powerful and all, certainly had the option to create or not to. So we only exist by the 50% chance that he chose to.

I digress but my point is that in metaphysical conversation you need to be literal and specific with what you say as much as possible or else we all lose each other's positions and things go to hell (so to speak ).

 

[Jim Prower]

I think I need to do some research on this, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the heads up.



From how I understand it all the matter that is in the universe was in one, very small singularity and it just popped (I wouldn't call it a bang as there was no air to have sound waves travel through). Nothing was created, it just was there. Although I could be off base. I think Famine or TM might be able to chime in with the Big Bang better than I can.

That's just it...when equations got to that point, they hit Infinity. Divided by Zero. They couldn't see past the Singularity. Mathematics fell apart.

Then they came up with this sheet theory and that two sheets of dimensions collided and made matter. It sounds like an asspull to me, but, hey, whatever.

 

[Sam48]

The "eggheads" have a number of theories - but none of them have really taken hold. Science has not explained where the big bang came from.

That's just it...when equations got to that point, they hit Infinity. Divided by Zero. They couldn't see past the Singularity. Mathematics fell apart.

Then they came up with this sheet theory and that two sheets of dimensions collided and made matter. It sounds like an asspull to me, but, hey, whatever.

Only one problem, where did those 2 dimensions come from? That's the one question science can't seem to answer, which is, how can something come from nothing.

 

[homeforsummer]

Only one problem, where did those 2 dimensions come from? That's the one question science can't seem to answer, which is, how can something come from nothing.

That makes the huge mistake of assuming that before the big bang there was nothing to start with...

 

[Joey D]

That's just it...when equations got to that point, they hit Infinity. Divided by Zero. They couldn't see past the Singularity. Mathematics fell apart.

Then they came up with this sheet theory and that two sheets of dimensions collided and made matter. It sounds like an asspull to me, but, hey, whatever.

I'm just going by what the current leading theory states, I don't know enough about the Big Bang to accurately describe it. If you are interested there are a couple of books out there that describe it in easy to understand terms. I found Bill Bryson's Short History of Nearly Everything to be good since it didn't leave me going "What?" when he described something.

Only one problem, where did those 2 dimensions come from? That's the one question science can't seem to answer, which is, how can something come from nothing.

Religion can't answer it either. Let me pose this one on you, who created God?

 

[Jim Prower]

Only one problem, where did those 2 dimensions come from? That's the one question science can't seem to answer, which is, how can something come from nothing.

I'm not saying I think they're right, I'm just saying what they're saying.

I've seen a BBC Documentary on these things...there's supposedly an Infinite number of alternate realities with this one...

 

[CarBastard]

That makes the huge mistake of assuming that before the big bang there was nothing to start with...

So, if there was something before the Big Bang (and I'm not questioning that there was, I'm sure there was), what was it? And where did it came from? How did it came to be? Questioning it that way is like dividing by zero, you'll follow infinetely, until you arrive to a point where you say "I don't know/I can't think of it/I don't care".