Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
Again how does a man enlighten himself beyond his own limitations without a higher source?
Which both assumes its true (I'm not) and applies your Christian worldview to it.


If you cannot look upon the historical record and clearly see that, it would be an exercise in futility for me to attempt to prove it to you.
Likewise I don't see any proof from you, it is not undeniable.
Burden of proof, your making the claim, you back it up.


No not entirely.
Depends on the subject.
What a surprise, double standards.

You require no evidence that can be shown to be of any resonable standard for your faith, but demand the most exacting standard for anything that may counter it.

Rife hypocrisy.


I'm curious here.
If you want conclusive proof for the Bible, why do you bother with debating whether or not Jesus said or did not say something contained therein?
You set the standard, put aside your hypocrisy and meet it.


That is but one valid approach of two.
Does not matter, you have ignored the key requirement of the very argument you cited, that no evidence exists for either position, as soon as evidence exists for one it doesn't meet the standard.


Under the acceptable, as so stated pluralistic examination both options are considered true.
The burden of proof being upon the one seeking to remove one of those options.
See my last post.
Big pile of utter bollocks that makes no sense at all.


You have evidence of an inconsistency, nothing more.
And that is all that's needed to show that one has evidence and the other does.


I did read it, it's unmistakable.
You need to re-examine your position.
Under the acceptable pluralistic approach, the burden is clearly on you.
No, you need to stop talking nonsense.


And what pray tell have I redefined this time?
This:

"When we have no evidence favoring either proposition, we must suspend belief in both."
 
DCP
Evolution is a religion, and forces children to believe in it.

Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?

DCP
Studying bones of the past mean nothing.

Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?

DCP
One would have to have faith that something like that happened in the past, much the same for cosmic evolution.

Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?

DCP
Other religions don't have creation accounts that show scientific evidence.

Correct!!! But then neither does Christianity. None of them do.

DCP
Evolution has nothing to do with science, yet it is taught in science classes.

Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?
Not true. Incorrect. False. Wrong. Falsch. Mal. Errado. Sbagliato. Forkert. Feil. Anghywir.

Any of those work for you?

Evolution has nothing to do with Science? Are you actually being serious? You have NO idea what your are talking about. None.

Stop replying as you are looking more and more like a troll. Perhaps learn something first. Anything. How toilets flush. A new language. Anything to prove that you are not COMPLETELY BRAINWASHED and have no free thought.
 
As per Europe and as extended to the Americas it was undeniably the predominant influence for over a 1000yrs.
Many western languages are Latin/Germanic, neither came from Christianity.

Greece and other cultures established important fields in math and science without Christianity. They also contributed to Democracy, which is popular today.

Rome influenced law, government, and culture

The Renaissance was not motivated by Christianity, but rather by looking back at logic and intellectual curiosity from older times before the Church became powerful.

Christianity was the dominant religious influence, but to say it was the dominant cultural influence overall seems to be a really big stretch.

And is primarily responsible for the civil systems we live under today, which are based to a large degree on it's moral teachings.
Consequently, it's influence has formed much of the moral value system of society in general.
Christian dominance in culture and morality probably peaked in the Middle Ages and has dropped off since. At that time, I could go along with what you are saying, although those times were quite different from today. Modern times see a distancing from religion and instead apply logic to government and morality. We're a product of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment really. Throw in the civil rights movements of the mid 20th century as well.




In reality, quite the opposite.
It's only a faulty belief under the moral absolutes of higher moral authority.
On an equal moral footing, slavery as with any other moral decision is subject to the whim of self justification on any given day, individually or collectively.
How? The slave and the slave owner are on equal footing. How can the slave owner justify owning the slave against the slave's will?

If gods were the source of morality, it would be easy. The god just has to "slavery is fine".



Absolute morality is established by God.
Outside of that, morality is a moving target as explained above.
If he is who he says he is and created everything thus, he most assuredly can institute morality standards.
There are no moral absolutes otherwise for the very reason I have been contending.
Absolute morality can't be established, it's absolute. The best God can do is know them from the beginning and repeat them to us, but he can't create morality. If he does it's subjective morality and it doesn't mean anything.

Christians often reference the fact that God is the creator and that allows him to do X, but really that doesn't mean anything. Being the creator makes God the creator, nothing more. It doesn't make him good, a moral authority, your superior, or anything like that.

If God is as he says, he is a paradox, which indicates that he doesn't exist.


Well, is it wrong because God says so or you say so?
Who says it doesn't matter. It's wrong because it's logically wrong. We are all on equal footing (ie our desires are subjective). This leaves theft unjustifiable because the subjective desire to steal an item can't be said to have priority over the owner's desire to retain property.

That remains true even if God said that stealing was morally correct. God would be wrong; moral absolutes.



Subjective or objective is irrelevant.
It's really the only thing worth discussing in this whole topic.

Both of you are mere men so in his eyes, his justification system is as good as yours.
The would be killer's will is as valid as mine, but not his justification (if he actually does kill me). He has no justification.



Precisely. It's about justification, not logic.
Thats why logic may, or may not be a factor.
There is no good or evil without the higher authority of moral absolutes.
It is about logic. Logic is how you justify something.
 
That's not exactly what I said.
I said on a equal moral level of authority they are all the same.
Since all are derived from the same moral level of authority.
The same moral level justifies the same for all, and
validity is lost in the process.
Here's what you said:
Subjective or objective is irrelevant.
Both of you are mere men so in his eyes, his justification system is as good as yours.
Whatever that happens to be, again at any given point in time, since there is nothing higher upon which to base a code of moral absolutes.
You seem to be saying that without using god as a basis, all moral systems are just as valid, making them all invalid. Let me know if you mean something else.

If this is what you're saying, it's wrong. Two people may have conflicting moral codes. However, if they conflict, only one of them can be logically consistent. Logic never allows two conflicting statements to be true.

In any case, your argument is flawed because it doesn't work for anything else. For example, "on a equal mathematical level of authority they are all the same.
Since all are derived from the same mathematical level of authority.
The same mathematical level justifies the same for all, and
validity is lost in the process."

You have yet to demonstrate that morality can't be derived from logic while math can. The validity of math statements can be tested with logic. The same is true of morality.

There is nothing admirable about genocide from God's perspective.
Again under the New Testament those practices were abolished.
So Hitler was without righteous justification for such acts.
Ever heard the phrase "Do as I say, not as I do"? Are you aware that it's used mostly to point of people's hypocrisy?
Again how does a man enlighten himself beyond his own limitations without a higher source?
There is no need to. Logic allows us to enlighten ourselves to the maximum amount that is possible.
Under the acceptable, as so stated pluralistic examination both options are considered true.
The burden of proof being upon the one seeking to remove one of those options.
See my last post.
I don't think you understand logical plurlism.

Pluralism is the idea that there are multiple systems of logic that can be used in various circumstances. However it's generally agreed that only the logical system which is consistent with reality is meaningful when discussing things pertaining to reality. There's a thing called fuzzy logic, where truth can be between 0 and 1. It's useful for computing. It is not generlly consistent with reality.

I can't think of a logic system where two conflicting statements can ever both be considered true. It's certainly not allowed in classical logic AKA real logic.
 
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Well, I don't have any words to say except two points:

Right... Erm... Let me break this down...


DCP
Schools can teach all religions, just give the children choices.

You can, it's just that the SCHOOLS CANNOT force people to believe in a religion. They can offer classes to students about religion, but the school does not have the authority to force students to take a religious class and force it into them.


DCP
Evolution is a religion, and forces children to believe in it.

It isn't. The fossil record seems already proven evolution true. If it is a religion, then PROVE that it is.

DCP
Studying bones of the past mean nothing. Those bones could be anybodies. Why could bones of the past change from one animal into another, but not with animals alive today, or the last few thousand years?

The answer is simple for your question: Natural selection weeded out the weaker of the species not suited to that particular environment, and over time with genetic mutations that could either be good or bad, bones can change from generation to generation.

DCP
Evolution has nothing to do with science, yet it is taught in science classes.

I have no words. I don't even know anymore...

It. Is. Science. It shows how we came to be through natural selection, mutations, and reproduction.

DCP
If God wanted me to kill people I would do it, but you see, God wants us to love people, and give them hope of eternal life.

DCP
If God wanted me to kill people I would do it

So you are a mass murderer? What if you were in a room full of people that didn't believe in your religion? You have a gun with you, and you heard a "message from God" telling you to kill EVERY LAST PERSON in the room. Would you?
 
What if you were in a room full of people that didn't believe in your religion? You have a gun with you, and you heard a "message from God" telling you to kill EVERY LAST PERSON in the room. Would you?
If he truly believed it was God, he already admitted he would.


@DCP You were banned from the Evolution thread because you refused to understand what evolution is. What good do you think it will do to bring it up again and show that you don't actually care what anyone thinks?
 
kzco6.jpg


.....After reading some of the posts here, I feel this is somewhat appropriate. Don't you think?
 
DCP
In your worldview, you have no idea what this prayer is all about, but the beauty of it all is, you do have a choice, but if only you could put the scheme of man in your back pocket.

I was going to say a number of things, but others already have, so what's the point? Instead:

I was walking through Gasworks Park one fine afternoon, thinking about my children, how trying they could be, how much work and responsibility a family was, but also the joy and amusement of watching them, and simply how much I loved them. For no particular reason I thought "That's how You love us, isn't it?' At that instant waves of warmth began rolling down from the top of my head to my feet, one after the other. I stood for a moment, then fell to my knees and began to cry. I don't know how long this continued, but it stopped, I got myself together, said thanks for answering me, and continued the stroll.

If I remember correctly, you were saying something about my worldview?
 
You don't, I know religious people that accept anything from all of evolutions ideas, proven and not, all the way to some who won't accept any of it. To me if you believe God is a creator than that's all you need to know, arguing all the details is irrelevant. It would be nice to recognize the advancements in science that affect your daily life however.
 
I don't accept his worldview. Since when do you have to have the same opinion as someone to understand something?
You said "we understand it" (which you have now edited). DCP does not understand it.

If you do understnd evolution and reject it, I would be happy to discuss it in the evolution thread.
 
I'll try and word this differently. I understand the reasoning behind DCP and any other religious people's faith, but I do not share the same faith.
 
I'm always bothered by these kinds of questions. You could say I don't believe in God, but this would be to acknowledge there is a possibility he does, and thus validates religion.

I simply do not partake in religion. It is not part of my worldview. I'm not an outsider to some faith as this would acknowledge its existence, which gives it power of sorts.

There is nothing here to believe or disbelieve. God and anything deriving from this is fiction, human imagination. I don't even identify as Atheist. Is there another word for this?
 
I'm always bothered by these kinds of questions. You could say I don't believe in God, but this would be to acknowledge there is a possibility he does, and thus validates religion.

I simply do not partake in religion. It is not part of my worldview. I'm not an outsider to some faith as this would acknowledge its existence, which gives it power of sorts.

There is nothing here to believe or disbelieve. God and anything deriving from this is fiction, human imagination. I don't even identify as Atheist. Is there another word for this?

Agnostic if you think there may be a god. Probably non-theist best describes you?
 
I'm always bothered by these kinds of questions. You could say I don't believe in God, but this would be to acknowledge there is a possibility he does, and thus validates religion.

I simply do not partake in religion. It is not part of my worldview. I'm not an outsider to some faith as this would acknowledge its existence, which gives it power of sorts.

There is nothing here to believe or disbelieve. God and anything deriving from this is fiction, human imagination. I don't even identify as Atheist. Is there another word for this?
Agnostic, if I remember the big "Debate" between @Famine and some other guy correctly.

Agnostics simply believe that it is impossible to know if God exists, or believe it to be irrelevant.

However, since you stated very matter-of-factly that God is nothing but fiction (Meaning you believe God is not real), I believe that makes you atheist, meaning you believe God is not real.

Source.
 
I think I know why there was a misunderstanding. When I said
True, but you'd think if he wants to challenge our worldview it might be helpful to attempt to understand it.
I meant that DCP should try to understand science if he wants to know why we don't believe in god.
 
Agnostic if you think there may be a god. Probably non-theist best describes you?

Checking up the term on Wikipedia, this seems more accurate than "Atheist". I'm a non-theist, then. I can appreciate a religion's history from the outside, but I could never drink the kool-aid.

If there is an entity out there you could call "God", it's very definitely not the Biblical kind. To assume so would be, imo, arrogant and narcissistic. But that's probably a different debate.
 
But I guess since you seem to fancy yourself as smarter and more righteous than God you could have done a better job with that.

Yep. I haven't killed anybody. However, I have sat down and talked with a lot of people with whom I have had disagreements. Which is something your god doesn't do. I guess this is beyond your god's capabilities. Talking to people face to face I mean.
 
I was going to say a number of things, but others already have, so what's the point? Instead:

I was walking through Gasworks Park one fine afternoon, thinking about my children, how trying they could be, how much work and responsibility a family was, but also the joy and amusement of watching them, and simply how much I loved them. For no particular reason I thought "That's how You love us, isn't it?' At that instant waves of warmth began rolling down from the top of my head to my feet, one after the other. I stood for a moment, then fell to my knees and began to cry. I don't know how long this continued, but it stopped, I got myself together, said thanks for answering me, and continued the stroll.

If I remember correctly, you were saying something about my worldview?

It sounds very similar to some of the recreational drug use stories I've heard. Was it the best night ever?
 
I couldn't resist posting this here... What a hoot, I'm still laughing and I've read it before!

Before anyone starts condemning me to the 7 hells just remember that one of the most important things in life is to laugh and, well, I think that this is hilarious no matter what side of the argument you're on :lol:

http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html
 
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