Do you believe in God?

[FastFurious77]

@wraith of horus From reading through some of your posts it's become quite obvious that you are clueless about reality. You're just making up this imaginary world where we somehow make earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis happen more regularly and where we can't do anything about famine and disease. So it comes as no surprise that you believe in god and angels, etc, and that they're going to magically fly down here and fix everything.

However in reality scientists will continue to solve the worlds problems, even the ones we can't control we can limit the human casualties by predicting when volcanoes are going to erupt and producing early warning systems for tsunamis and hurricanes, etc. They will continue to cure diseases, fight @Famine (oh not that one, although you never know ), and generally improve everyone's health and life expectancy, whilst making the world (and the rest of the universe) easier to explore and giving us a lot technology to keep ourselves entertained.

On the contrary. I see the world as it is. Not some magical island where everything is perfect where you live in this bubble and nothing is wrong or bad about the world? Believe it or not more and more volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados and flash floods get reported year upon year. With them these bring unclean and dirty water so more famine also and will damage crops and foods. More and more are recorded every year, so are hurricanes and floods. More and more. It's only going to get worse. The bible warns you will hear more signs and more reports of wars aswell as these catastrophes.

I never said what we can do with our science and instruments is a bad thing and more than not I am glad that we can control certain problems in the world to a certain degree and warn people with our scientific instruments. And as for all the physical and none physical diseases, illnesses and mental conditions, there are likely thousands of viruses and diseases that science still can not cure. Being able to foretell when an earthquake will hit or a Tsunami is going to hit is progress and knowledge and making good use of science for once.

I never said we are the soul culprit as you pointed out, you made it sound like I said we are completely to blame, I actually said that we are partly to blame and we are not the only cause. But due to our actions and limited knowledge, we don't see the repercussions of our actions until its too late. The world is dieing and anyone can see that when you take a look at the out of balance seasons, bad weather, all the chemicals man is throwing into the seas or waters and into the skies, or being mined out of the earth constantly. Then there are the trees exhale oxygen into the atmosphere and exhale carbon dioxide at night and etc etc it doesn't help the earth. All the drilling for natural oil, coal and gas among mining for thousands of other minerals day in day out is not good for the earth either and neither is fracking.

We are supposed to have clean energies and non combustible and fuel able energy sources by now. As I pointed out we are all living slave to the bug oil, big gas companies, macro economic petroleum industries that want to keep us in control and the secret governments, the bankers and the cooperate behemoths. What about all the hydrogen, water, magnet powered motors, wind or solar powered are still not cheap enough for the common family on low wages to afford. Neither is housing prices. Man is greedy and everything is way too expensive for anyone to afford. Yet we still rely on electricity and gas. Our electronic instruments are designed old 1900's technology and wired power sources. We could be do far ahead by now. We could have fuel cells to power laptops for the duration of their life and other instruments. Its all money making world but mainly because these people strive only for absolute control and power. To keep is needing our energies from them.

It is known that spirits are always acting out events in recorded history and people describe their story as going back in time. And there are places where you can see where wars or huge deaths have occurred or really bad things. The Angels and the fallen angels are already here and have been a long long time. There are more and more horror / paranormal films on TV and the cinema these days I wonder why? its hard not to see that the devil and the demons do not exist. Most people I know realize there are ghosts / spirits in their houses or know people that have had experiences so I wouldn't call that imaginary. The whole alien agenda also gives hints to it being a paranormal source. There are millions of abductees around the world and millions of people around the world believing in the paranormal existence of supernatural entities.

The devils best trick is making people believe that he doesn't exist. Because science can't explain and detect these intelligent entities? Maybe they can Our scientists can't see into another dimensional reality whereas they the spirits can come into ours. If you watch certain paranormal films like The Moth man, or Knowing etc.. you will see that it mirrors and reflects actual real life. Why the bible warns against Tarro cards, divination, spiritism and Ouija boards, witches or other people who are in contact with demonic entities. These entities can know when a catastrophe is going to hit or some big event. Why because God made them higher than us, with higher senses and abilities, much more power and knowledge than we have. Some people claim that they have been told a specific event will happen and give the exact day and date and year in which the event will take place. They like to mess with our minds and with the world and as I said divide us against each other. While its clear without them we do just as good a job aswell to disagree, fall out, form enemies and cause wars. Everything is an influencing factor to a degree.

 

[BobK]

Believe it or not more and more volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados and flash floods get reported year upon year. With them these bring unclean and dirty water so more famine also and will damage crops and foods. More and more are recorded every year, so are hurricanes and floods. More and more.

Of course you've got statistics to back that statement up, right?
Right?

If you watch certain paranormal films like The Moth man, or Knowing etc.. you will see that these entities can know when a catastrophy is going to hit or some big event.

Are you seriously citing movies as evidence here?

Then there are the trees exhale oxygen into the atmosphere and exhale carbon dioxide at night and etc etc it doesn't help the earth.

I don't even...

There are more and more horror / paranormal films on TV and the cinema these days I wonder why?

Because some people find them entertaining?

 

[Denur]

wraith of horus said
If you watch certain paranormal films like The Moth man, or Knowing etc.. you will see that these entities can know when a catastrophy is going to hit or some big event.

Are you seriously citing movies as evidence here?

 

[Imari]

I wish that were true. I would simply unthink you, and you would be gone.

Uh, OK. So if you could erase me with a thought, you would and wish you could.

I'm just going to stick with my humanist "live and let live", I think. Maybe it's wrong, but I find it makes for a better community and a happier life than wishing I could go around erasing people.

That would be by definition a miracle, or the second coming, and belief would no longer be required.

This is the point. Why is belief required? Why is it not enough to wait for something to actually affect you?

If you need to believe, isn't that just saying that this thing doesn't affect your life in any significant way, and so it really doesn't matter what you think? You can't be wrong.

Not being able to be wrong is a pretty big red flag in my world. If you can't be wrong, there's no sensible way in which you can be right, and the information is totally useless.

 

[GBO Possum]

The one true god wants all humankind to know him and pray but importantly live by god's standards and principles set by him for us.

Some estimates put the number of gods we have invented into the millions or higher.

However, this post gives us a clue about identifying the "one true" god. Choose the ones who have most demonstrated, by his/her/its actions, an approach to communication with "all humankind", not favoring any particular race, tribe or geography, for a short list.

So far, I have not found any with anything like a simultaneous global reach.

Anyone who'd like to join in the hunt might find this link useful - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities

 

[Touring Mars]

If you watch certain paranormal films like Knowing etc..

Oh no... I'm not sitting through that rubbish again.

 

[huskeR32]

Yep, you're right. The post went out by mistake, editing was in progress, and I was not aware that if I shut down, it would post. Live and learn. More accurately, these are attributes of God found in the Bible. I do not know how closely they correspond to the actual nature of God. Many people believe that they have to accept what the Bible says literally in order to properly worship God. I do not hold that belief, the principles I consider important are: act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with God. In A different form: Do unto others... This theme runs through the entire Bible. I do not consider doctrinal questions or speculation on the attributes of God important. If this means disagreement with others, I can accept that.

We're going to revisit that bit in bold in a moment, so stick with me.

That I continue to believe in the face of arguments that it makes no sense to do so would seem to indicate a certain closed-mindedness on my part also. That may be so, but I accept evidence that you do not.

Are you suggesting that the simple act of accepting evidence, regardless of its veracity or logical consistency, is a sign of open-mindedness?

Speaking of dismissal; having proposed personal testimony as eyewitness and not hearsay evidence and having it rejected out-of-hand by yourself, it appears that you are accusing me of acting like you.

I don't reject testimony itself, I just reject the idea that it should hold an ounce of meaning for anybody other than the testifier. Whatever has happened between you and God on your long walks on the beach is between you and God. Expecting anybody else who wasn't there to take your word that it happened is asking a little much.

--

Back to the bolded bit at the start:

More accurately, these are attributes of God found in the Bible. I do not know how closely they correspond to the actual nature of God.

If somebody claims to have personally experienced a connection with God, I do not know how closely their claims correspond to the actual nature of God. Nor do I know how closely their perceptions could possibly correspond with an otherwise undetectable extra-dimensional being. Nor do I know how closely their after-the-fact recollection corresponds with what actually happened.

And if I hear about this experience secondhand? Or third? Or one-hundredth? Now I'm so far removed from what actually happened that it would be foolish to invest any belief in it whatsoever. Especially if I'm expected to apply these testimonies in ways that contradict ideas that I have much more concrete reasons to hold.

Critical thinking is not closed-mindedness.

 

[Famine]

The devils best trick is making people believe that he doesn't exist.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Movies aren't real life. Even movies about real life aren't real life.

And "Knowing" is barely even a movie. It is, to quote my own review of it:

Depressing dross made by frustrated serial killers.

 

[TiZzla]

His within you, and has never left you. Perhaps You've denied Him, or don't need Him. I don't know bro. That's between you and Him personally.

I think he left me when our primary school stopped forcing religious education on us, I know in South Africa that all of you guys are taught about religion but here it is optional, and very uncommon. I find it very sad that children are forced to believe in God and are essentially brainwashed from a very young age, but once you are an adult surely you can see how ridiculous it is to believe in the stories from the Bible.

 

[DCP]

I think he left me when our primary school stopped forcing religious education on us, I know in South Africa that all of you guys are taught about religion but here it is optional, and very uncommon. I find it very sad that children are forced to believe in God and are essentially brainwashed from a very young age, but once you are an adult surely you can see how ridiculous it is to believe in the stories from the Bible.

It's different for everyone bud, that's why each person must answer for their doing, as their conscience never lies.
While you think believing in God is brain washing, so do we believe that a singularity before the big bang is brain washing. Both faiths, while the latter is not processed honestly.
I'm glad religion is optional there, like it is here. Perhaps now as an adult you can put aside the walls you have developed over the years, closing things, and try to find God if you so choose. If not, it's no problem. No one is forced to find the God of the Bible, since He gave them free will to choose this day, what or whom they will serve.

Like I said earlier, He never left you in primary school. You left Him, by having other desires in your heart. Love, money, fame, pride, gaming, whatever it is. That's where you wanted your heart to be. The beauty part is, He is still waiting there for you, hoping you would change.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Perhaps now as an adult you can put aside the walls you have developed over the years, closing things, and try to find God if you so choose.

As an adult, I have put aside the walls of religion from which I came from, opened my mind and found that there is no god. There is no invisible man in the sky that judges my every move, by which he will determine if I deserve to spend my so called afterlife in a place that doesn't exist. Begging for his forgiveness if I make a wrong choice. This is no way to live the only life you have. Wondering every day if the choices you made since the second you woke up are good enough to please this almighty being. These thoughts disgust me to no end, and I'm glad I've broken free of the torture and moved on to true happiness.

Religion had it's place centuries ago when we didn't have the knowledge to explain how or why things happen. Science has given us the answers and will continue to give us answers as we move forward as a species and continue to develop our minds and explore new possibilities. Living in the past will get us nowhere, and it's time to let the fairy-tales go.

 

[Denur]

so do we believe that a singularity before the big bang is brain washing. Both faiths, while the latter is not processed honestly.

A misconception, you have been wrongly informed. We do not believe in a singularity before the big bang. We simply do not know what was before the big bang (if anything), or what triggered the big bang (if it was triggered), or whether there are more universes than our own, or what ever. All we know for certain is that the big bang happened and started from a very dense and very hot sphere the size of a grapefruit.

 

[DCP]

A misconception, you have been wrongly informed. We do not believe in a singularity before the big bang. We simply do not know what was before the big bang (if anything), or what triggered the big bang (if it was triggered), or whether there are more universes than our own, or what ever. All we know for certain is that the big bang happened and started from a very dense and very hot sphere the size of a grapefruit.

So it's faith based right, until your leaders might find the answer right? I bet even if they said it is God, nothing would change, since people don't want to live by Gods commandments.
If you see quote above by 1600turbo, he says there is no invisible sky man, yet he believes there is an invisible something before the big bang. Get where this is going? Further than the grapefruit size, still massive questions, of where did time, space and centrifugal forces appear from?
All about choice.
Still boils down to the same thing. God, or scientists. God or man. Choose this day, who you want to serve and believe. As I said earlier, it's no problem if people want to continue following the Babylonian system of the world.

 

[TiZzla]

It's different for everyone bud, that's why each person must answer for their doing, as their conscience never lies.
While you think believing in God is brain washing, so do we believe that a singularity before the big bang is brain washing. Both faiths, while the latter is not processed honestly.
I'm glad religion is optional there, like it is here. Perhaps now as an adult you can put aside the walls you have developed over the years, closing things, and try to find God if you so choose. If not, it's no problem. No one is forced to find the God of the Bible, since He gave them free will to choose this day, what or whom they will serve.

Like I said earlier, He never left you in primary school. You left Him, by having other desires in your heart. Love, money, fame, pride, gaming, whatever it is. That's where you wanted your heart to be. The beauty part is, He is still waiting there for you, hoping you would change.

You only believe in God because you were taught about him, by your parents or by your teachers. He is not something that has come into your life, he is just an idea that has been put in your head from a young age. A few South Africans I know moved here when I was in High School and within a year or so they had stopped believing, because nobody here does and it is not taught in public schools. I guarantee you 100% if you grew up here without religious parents you would not believe in God.

 

[Denur]

So it's faith based right, until your leaders might find the answer right?

Faith in what? We just don't know the answer to every question and maybe never will. We simply do not make up answers to make things fit. And who are these leaders you are talking about?

 

[DCP]

You only believe in God because you were taught about him, by your parents or by your teachers. He is not something that has come into your life, he is just an idea that has been put in your head from a young age. A few South Africans I know moved here when I was in High School and within a year or so they had stopped believing, because nobody here does and it is not taught in public schools. I guarantee you 100% if you grew up here without religious parents you would not believe in God.

Easy to say that bud, but you need to know about the next persons life. Walk in their shoes, feel their emotions, to really know what is going on. My testimony brought me back to the Lord, even though I grew up in a Christian home.
I went to church for the sake of going. To please my parents, and perhaps find a nice chick.
It doesn't matter how many years a person goes to church. If they don't have a heart to know Him, they never will.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If they don't have a heart to know Him, they never will.

A cynic might call that "blind faith"...

 

[CodeRedR51]

If you see quote above by 1600turbo, he says there is no invisible sky man, yet he believes there is an invisible something before the big bang.

I said no such thing, do not put words in my mouth.

Choose this day, who you want to serve and believe.

I serve no one. I make my own choices. And I am happier for it.

 

[Imari]

So it's faith based right, until your leaders might find the answer right?

Nope.

I bet even if they said it is God, nothing would change, since people don't want to live by Gods commandments.

That's right. If some self-styled leader told me it was all done by God, I would ignore him.

If there was objective evidence that something was caused by God, then I'm happy to accept that.

For some reason you think that the rest of us simply do as we're told by some higher power, just like you. We do not. We make up our own minds about the world that is presented to us. Sometimes smarter people provide amazing explanations for observations that we could never have come up with by ourselves, but we still evaluate these claims ourselves and make our own choices.

Get where this is going? Further than the grapefruit size, still massive questions, of where did time, space and centrifugal forces appear from?

You seem to think that the fact that there's more questions yet unanswered is a strike against the scientific view.

It is not.

Science never claimed to be able to explain everything. It's a way of looking at things that ensures that you are making the best possible interpretations of the information that is available. As information changes, the best interpretation can change. That flexibility is what makes it such a powerful tool.

It's also what differentiates it from belief. Belief cannot change it's mind.

Choose this day, who you want to serve and believe.

Why must one serve anyone? Why can I not simply be me?

This idea that one must be in servitude to someone is archaic. It's designed to make people feel better about being in servitude to lords and kings, because then the lords and kings are servants just like them.

It's bollocks. One can choose not to serve anyone at all, if one wishes.

As I said earlier, it's no problem if people want to continue following the Babylonian system of the world.

By which you mean what, exactly?

If it's a world in which each man makes informed decisions based upon the information that is presented to him, then I agree.

 

[GBO Possum]

since people don't want to live by Gods commandments.

And that includes you, I would guess.

For example, the god of the Old Testament commands that people who work on the sabbath should be put to death. My guess is that you don't want to live by that commandment.

I also guess that you choose not to live by the commandments of the vast majority of the gods who "speak to" humans.

You just choose to live by some of the commandments of just one of the gods, that god being the god of your parents, most likely. Had you been born into a different family, you would follow different rules.

 

[huskeR32]

While you think believing in God is brain washing, so do we believe that a singularity before the big bang is brain washing. Both faiths, while the latter is not processed honestly.

So it's faith based right, until your leaders might find the answer right?

How many times must we debunk this 🤬 before it finally stops getting thrown around?

And what does you mean that "the latter is not processed honestly?"

 

[Touring Mars]

So it's faith based right

Wrong (see above).... but, for the sake of argument, let's go with the idea that many people do simply 'believe' in a non-religious, 'natural' alternative to the origin of our universe. Are they just as guilty (of indulging in 'faith') as those who believe in a supernatural origin and the existence of God or Gods? No, because there is a key difference. The former are likely (if not certain) to accept tangible evidence that may contradict their views if and when it arrives - the latter will not, as evinced by the steadfast refusal of many people of faith to accept the plain reality that human life evolved, that the planet and observable universe are much older than they believe it to be, etc. etc..

Is the origin of the universe even something that can be studied? Of course it is, but it is clearly not an easy task. But to state or believe that science cannot ever answer questions about the origin of the universe is wrong - you simply cannot possibly know what advances in observational or theoretical techniques might be made. Will science ever yield definitive answers as to the origin of the universe? Maybe not, but that is not the same as believing that science cannot answer such questions. But I don't know how anybody with even a passing interest in the subject cannot be aware of (or indeed impressed by) the huge advances in understanding that have come about in recent decades thanks to the modern era of precision astronomy and cosmology, especially when it comes to things like observing and studying black holes. Once considered a theoretical curiousity, it is now known that black holes are most likely extremely common/everywhere, including at the centre of our own galaxy. And it is no longer the case that the study of black holes is just a case of theory or applied mathematics, but involves precise observations and real data. Understanding black holes may yield crucial evidence that explains how the Big Bang happened.

What is absolutely clear is that a real understanding of the nature and origin of our universe need not (and indeed cannot) depend on faith, guesswork, or wishful thinking - it depends on the hard work and dedication of astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists, theoreticians and a whole host of other scientists to contribute to the vast scientific literature on the subject that you seem happy to dismiss in a single trite remark that equates all of it to nothing more than faith.

On that note, it continues to amuse me how the implied redundancy of faith is cast up in arguments against science where it is completely unnecessary. To me that says alot more about the uselessness of faith as it does about the usefulness of science.

 

[DCP]

And that includes you, I would guess.

For example, the god of the Old Testament commands that people who work on the sabbath should be put to death. My guess is that you don't want to live by that commandment.

I also guess that you choose not to live by the commandments of the vast majority of the gods who "speak to" humans.

You just choose to live by some of the commandments of just one of the gods, that god being the god of your parents, most likely. Had you been born into a different family, you would follow different rules.

Looks like you are picking and choosing, which is understandable, since you have a rejecting heart.

How many times must we debunk this 🤬 before it finally stops getting thrown around?

And what does you mean that "the latter is not processed honestly?"

You won't admit it. Before the big bang, you don't know what happened, so you must believe something happened. To believe, is to have faith. It's never been debunked, except in your mind, and by your own free will.

 

[zzz_pt]

Looks like you are picking and choosing, which is understandable, since you have a rejecting heart.

 

[Denur]

you don't know what happened, so you must believe something happened

This is where you go wrong in your logic. We just don't know what happened, that's it, nothing more. Maybe nothing happened. We. don't . know. We may have some wild ideas about what has been going on, but that doesn't mean that we immediately believe that to be the truth.

 

[Imari]

You won't admit it. Before the big bang, you don't know what happened, so you must believe something happened.

Again, you're projecting your own world view onto others.

When you find something that you don't know, you choose something that sounds plausible to you and you believe that.

That's not the only option.

Some of us are simply able to say "I don't know what happens there", and leave it at that. Maybe something happened. Maybe it didn't. Maybe there's something else entirely that is neither.

When there's actually some information to go on, then maybe speculation would be interesting, but as of right now there's absolutely nothing to give us any confidence in any statements about what may or may not have happened prior to the big bang, if there even is such a thing as "before" in that instance.

You don't get this, because you've been taught that there's always an answer.

The rest of us live in a world where sometimes there just isn't an answer. Maybe there's not an answer yet, maybe there will never be an answer. We're OK with that.

There's nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know. And there's nothing wrong with not knowing.

Something that you could do well to remember.

 

[GBO Possum]

Looks like you are picking and choosing, which is understandable, since you have a rejecting heart.

So you don't "pick and choose" amongst all the available gods? You believe in all of them?? Wow! Even the ones which are really obscure?

With regard to your other comments about what to do when you don't know the answer. It's a really bad idea to just make 🤬 up. That's where religions came from. Making 🤬 up starts off being self-delusional, and, if you're convincingly delusional, the delusion spreads like a virus. Eventually it becomes very difficult to remove. I know, I've been there. It's difficult, but not impossible, so long as there is some openness in one's thinking.

 

[DCP]

So you don't "pick and choose" amongst all the available gods? You believe in all of them?? Wow! Even the ones which are really obscure?

With regard to your other comments about what to do when you don't know the answer. It's a really bad idea to just make 🤬 up. That's where religions came from. Making 🤬 up starts off being self-delusional, and, if you're convincingly delusional, the delusion spreads like a virus. Eventually it becomes very difficult to remove. I know, I've been there. It's difficult, but not impossible, so long as there is some openness in one's thinking.

Tell me about it. I've seen it with evolution and bang theories.
No, I worship the One true Living God, not created and not made up. The One that judges the heart, and the One that condemns wickedness, deceit and sin.
Speak for yourself. I've been there, and it's a dead end road.

 

[Danoff]

the One that condemns wickedness, deceit and sin.

...and critical thinking.

Religious faith is a refusal to think critically on the subject of existence (the most important subject), no faith = hell right? That's condemnation for exercising critical thinking, something that usually serves us well.

 

[ECGadget]

There's nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know. And there's nothing wrong with not knowing.

I have only posted in this thread once, but that phrase was worth quoting. Whether one believes in God or not, you have to accept there are things you do not know, and that is not wrong. Science is about exploring what we do not know, and yes sometimes it conflicts with religion (different religions with different aspects perhaps) but for the most part it goes hand in hand with it. Some people choose to believe that God caused the big bang. Perfectly okay to believe that. Others believe that the big bang never happened and it was something else caused by God. Again, the Big Bang is not proven (and probably never will be completely proven) so there is nothing wrong in that either. Some believe God does not exist. Again, that is up to them to choose. But we can all admit, that whether it is because it has been hidden by God or we just have not worked it out yet, there are things that we do not know. And as Humans, we want to find out.
Also, @DCP I admire and respect your love for God and your religion. However, saying to people they have a rejecting heart etc I feel is not nice. The reason being is that you believe that God is almighty and all powerful, correct? Now that means that the only one in your eyes who could have the ability to see into the soul of a person - to know exactly what they have in their heart - is God. But you are saying that @GBO Possum has a rejecting one. Surely that is something only God can know. None of us have the right to judge another persons heart. When the final day comes (for those who believe in it) who are we to say what shall happen to us? And if we have no certainty of our future, how can we pass any judgement upon another?

Just my tuppence there.