Do you believe in God?

[Denur]

Its normal to mock and execute us. We were told so.

No need for prophecy to tell you that. A simple knowledge of human nature suffices.

 

[Imari]

God says it Himself, to test Him. How else can He be God if not tested?

And yet when I test God and he fails, somehow I'm doing it wrong.

What?

Why is it that you test your God, and yet you tell the atheists to simply accept and believe?

 

[DCP]

No need for prophecy to tell you that. A simple knowledge of human nature suffices.

I suppose the Roman soldiers said the same thing. No need for Isaiah to tell us how to crucify Christ. It's our simple knowledge of how to do it.

And yet when I test God and he fails, somehow I'm doing it wrong.

What?

Why is it that you test your God, and yet you tell the atheists to simply accept and believe?

You testing God to physically see if His real. It will never work like that.

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Yes, you could be doing it wrong, by living your own life by your own rules, while trying to test the One who gave you life. Always question yourself by asking if your rules are tying up with Gods fulfilled commandments. If not, then that is where the problem lies.

 

[Denur]

I suppose the Roman soldiers said the same thing. No need for Isaiah to tell us how to crucify Christ. It's our simple knowledge of how to do it.

I'm not talking about prophecies in general, just those particular ones about not being accepted as Messiah. e.g. "He is despised and rejected of men" Isaiah 53:3

 

[Sir Tuddle]

Yes, you could be doing it wrong, by living your own life by your own rules, while trying to test the One who gave you life. Always question yourself by asking if your rules are tying up with Gods fulfilled commandments. If not, then that is where the problem lies.

I'm sorry I can't be the perfect lemming like God wanted. Why do we have a capacity for higher thinking if we aren't supposed to use it? And why can't we test the "One who gave us life"? Surely he has nothing to hide.

 

[Touring Mars]

If we are proclaiming our healing everyday, there is no need to become sick, and that has been proven to us, for now, over two years.

I really hate to say this, and I don't intend any offense, but I'm afraid that if you really believe that you are keeping yourself and your family healthy through your faith, then you are in for a major disappointment sooner or later.

There is plenty you can do to minimize your chances of falling ill - living a healthy lifestyle, eating well, avoiding risky activities etc. etc.... but 'godliness' is not one of them - and neither is being a good person/parent for that matter.

You say that 'We can't talk for anyone else', but at the same time you imply that people who suffer do so because of something they have done or are doing wrong ("bad parenting, ungodliness etc.") - do you realize how judgmental that sounds? I would be very careful with that - presuming to know why someone is less fortunate than you when you actually don't is likely to land you in hot water, and (dare I say it) is not a very nice thing to do.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@DCP, in this post you asked a number of questions about life, the universe and everything.

In this post I had a stab at answering them... yet you passed them by? I'm not at all hurt by that but wondered why you were apparently disinterested in the explanations?

 

[Imari]

You testing God to physically see if His real. It will never work like that.

You're testing God to see if he really heals you. I'm testing God to see if he can influence anything in the world that I can observe. We're both looking for physical results to confirm our suspicions.

Actually, my test includes yours, I would accept results that verified God having healed an illness as evidence. But I suspect that my conditions for positive evidence are a little more strict than yours. For example, I don't accept simply not getting sick for a couple of years as evidence of anything other than statistical variation existing.

Yes, you could be doing it wrong, by living your own life by your own rules, while trying to test the One who gave you life. Always question yourself by asking if your rules are tying up with Gods fulfilled commandments. If not, then that is where the problem lies.

So you can test him, but only by doing what he says?

Where in the Bible does it say "test whether I can heal you and your kids, and if I fail then don't believe in me"? That's not a test, you're just doing whatever you feel like.

Tell me this: what would happen that you would consider your "test" to have failed?

Honestly, I suspect that my life fulfills God's commandment better than a lot of Christians.

I put no other gods before God.
I do not make any graven images.
I sometimes take the Lord's name in vain, but 🤬 it, whatever. That's a bit of a crap one anyway.
I try not to work on Sunday. I try not to work on Saturday either, and if I can get days off during the week I'm happy to take them too.
I don't kill.
I don't commit adultery.
I don't steal.
I don't bear false witness, or covet all my neighbour's stuff. Or at least I try not to, I do get a little covetous when I see a nice car. One day I shall own an Alfa Romeo SZ...

In general I try to be a nice guy and help people out. I often fail, but I try to apologise and get on with it.

What more does God want? I do what he says, I just do it for me instead of Him. I do it because I think that they're good things to do, not because I was told to.

If being intelligent enough to figure out that these things are good in their own right is enough to disqualify me, then this is why I sometimes take the Lord's name in vain, because he sounds like a :censored:head.

I don't see what the problem is if I'm doing all the same things as a "good" Christian, but I'm doing them for humanist reasons. Isn't that the point of things like Pascal's Wager? That it doesn't matter if you really believe or not, it's just how you act?

Frankly, if we get into it being about not what you do but why you do it, we get into some pretty dubious territory where people are doing awful, awful things in the name of their God. And it's OK because their reasons were good but their actions were really not. For reference, see the Westboro Baptist Church. Or suicide bombers.

I prefer to assume that God is rational, and values right action over right justification. It's better to do something good for the wrong reason, than something terrible for the "right" one.

 

[DCP]

I'm not talking about prophecies in general, just those particular ones about not being accepted as Messiah. e.g. "He is despised and rejected of men" Isaiah 53:3

That's just it bro. Why would anyone hate someone who loved them so much, to actually die for them. I would never give up my sons even for the universe. It's simple. Choice. People like doing bad things. It's happening every single day without fail.

I'm sorry I can't be the perfect lemming like God wanted. Why do we have a capacity for higher thinking if we aren't supposed to use it? And why can't we test the "One who gave us life"? Surely he has nothing to hide.

Brother, Christ died for sinners, as there are NO perfect people according to Him. You don't have to try to be perfect. Just come clean and admit your guilt and shame. How simple, yet so difficult.

I really hate to say this, and I don't intend any offense, but I'm afraid that if you really believe that you are keeping yourself and your family healthy through your faith, then you are in for a major disappointment sooner or later.

There is plenty you can do to minimize your chances of falling ill - living a healthy lifestyle, eating well, avoiding risky activities etc. etc.... but 'godliness' is not one of them - and neither is being a good person/parent for that matter.

You say that 'We can't talk for anyone else', but at the same time you imply that people who suffer do so because of something they have done or are doing wrong ("bad parenting, ungodliness etc.") - do you realize how judgmental that sounds? I would be very careful with that - presuming to know why someone is less fortunate than you when you actually don't is likely to land you in hot water, and (dare I say it) is not a very nice thing to do.

I understand what you are saying man, but it's not what I'm saying. It's quite hard to explain. Remember, as many of you have said before, even bad things happen to good people. I don't know why this is the case. No one knows, but God. We don't know if Christians are really honoring God like they claim. I don't know. I look at my entire family, and say they are blessed, because they are not short of anything. I can't see beyond that, and or what others are going through in life. This is why we give them hope in Christ. It is up them them to take the next step, which usually happens when everything else fails. It's just choices all the time.

You also can't say I'm judgmental for parents being cruel to their children, or portraying acts of ungodliness. This is against Gods will for us. Wickedness and sin. God says good will become evil, and evil will become good.

@DCP, in this post you asked a number of questions about life, the universe and everything.

In this post I had a stab at answering them... yet you passed them by? I'm not at all hurt by that but wondered why you were apparently disinterested in the explanations?

I'm sorry bro, and no disrespect. I didn't comment as we would then go back to the beginning, so I just avoided it.
Those were not complete answers, as there are plenty of gaps as you would know.

 

[Denur]

even bad things happen to good people. I don't know why this is the case. No one knows, but God.

It becomes very very easy to understand when you disregard the notion of the existence of an all powerful benign god. Usually it is just a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Imari]

Remember, as many of you have said before, even bad things happen to good people. I don't know why this is the case. No one knows, but God.

See, there are things that you don't know too.

And yet you still rag on scientists for not knowing things as if that were somehow bad.

I'm not entirely sure you realise how two-faced your entire view of the universe is. You have one set of rules for yourself and those that you see as part of your group, and another set for everyone else.

In your rules for yourself, not knowing stuff is fine because you're trusting in God.
For everyone else, not knowing stuff is a terrible thing because they should be trusting in God.

That's not right.

 

[GBO Possum]

I think it's you that worships the sun, because you agree with other men on how it works, and when it will die.

You are quite wrong. I understand the workings of many things, some as basic as, say, the fulcrum. That is not to say I worship the fulcrum, or could even consider doing so. Worshipping things, dead people or imaginary friends seems to me to be a complete waste of time. I worship nothing.

 

[dylansan]

@DCP, in this post you asked a number of questions about life, the universe and everything.

In this post I had a stab at answering them... yet you passed them by? I'm not at all hurt by that but wondered why you were apparently disinterested in the explanations?

Get used to it. He's been known to drop lines of discussion whenever they become inconvenient.

I'm sorry bro, and no disrespect. I didn't comment as we would then go back to the beginning, so I just avoided it.
Those were not complete answers, as there are plenty of gaps as you would know.

It's not up to you to decide which conversations are worth continuing. If someone takes the time to respond to you, it's only fair to do the same. Completely skipping posts without explanation is IMO unacceptable and makes it look like certain questions are making you uncomfortable.

But I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[niky]

I'm sorry bro, and no disrespect. I didn't comment as we would then go back to the beginning, so I just avoided it.
Those were not complete answers, as there are plenty of gaps as you would know.

The "God of the Gaps" is a nasty one.

Just because "things fall down because of gravity" is an incomplete answer doesn't mean it's a wrong one.

Similarly, "things accelerate towards the center of the Earth at a rate of roughly 9.8 meters per second per second" is incomplete, but not wrong.

And "all matter is attracted towards other matter, and the greater the mass, the greater the attraction" is an incomplete answer, but not wrong.

-

You could go on saying "those are incomplete answers", ad infinitum, but that doesn't really mean anything. Because we'll learn more and more of the answers, and while you, personally, won't learn anything meaningful from them, the rest of us will be learning a whole lot.

What would be more useful is trying to point out why you think those answers are categorically wrong.

 

[Danoff]

Great quote bro. Do you know why the Son was given to the world? If you can understand and accept this, then you will immediately understand why you need to believe in Him. It's not for His sake, but for each individuals sake.
As you can see, Who believes in Him "MAY' not perish. But in order that the world "MIGHT" be saved through him.

You said a lack of faith doesn't condemn you to hell. Now you're saying that faith doesn't automatically get you into heaven. Two very different things. The part I quoted pretty directly says a lack of faith condemns you to hell. In otherwords, you were wrong. I'll accept your apology anytime.

 

[squadops]

Perish /= hell.

 

[Danoff]

Perish /= hell.

"condemned"

 

[DQuaN]

Yes I would. It's a convenience, because doctors have been blessed to understand Gods natural herbs through knowledge. Everything comes from this earth. However, like I say, utmost faith, that I wouldn't need to have my arm broken for whatever reason.

So you would trust the Doctors to heal you in this case, but not if you were ill?

What if you had Cancer? Are you saying you would try and "pray it away"?

 

[Exorcet]

I ask you, what is this reality that I am ignoring, other than working, eating, sleeping, paying bills, and inevitably dying?
Isn't this reality of our lives? Obviously we have fun in between with family and friends. What more reality is there?
Also, it's not my version of Christ. It's Christ. His offer, a free gift of salvation. Your response "No thank you, because you have better chances waiting for man to give you immortality, as it's better for you. At least you reject Christ outright, and don't beat around the bush. I respect that, as much as it pains me.

I've never ignored the world. I have everything I've always wanted. How does ignoring the world give that to me?
By visiting the doctors, I'm encouraging sickness and problems, even when there is nothing wrong. Like I say, before those two years, we wouldn't think of anything else but going to the doctor, even for the slightest headache. That was my lesson on faith. I had none.

There is only one reality to ignore. That is the one you are ignoring. It's more than just your day to day life, but cause and effect, and things very far from you that you may not notice at all. In order to survive, we need to understand reality, because it can harm us. Sickness, injury, etc. It is beneficial to know what hurts us and what makes us better. There are entire branches of science dedicated to this, and that is what allows us to maximize our health and well being. No religion does. Yet you ignore science, and in turn reality, to follow a religion. You can claim that your religion is special, but then you are no different from many of the other theists. They claim to follow the right religion, like you. They claim to know that they are correct, and all the while they will repeat inaccuracies, never acknowledge the flaws in their religion, and ignore evidence that goes against what they want to hear. Your version of Christ is just like any other god.

There is no gift to reject or accept. All we can do is look around and try to pick out the truth. Science is organized for that purpose. This is why avoiding doctors makes no sense. Prayer and faith do nothing for you. You believe they do because you're apparently lucky enough to be healthy for a short time. This is nothing more than luck. You might even remain lucky for much longer, but the future is uncertain. You are statistically putting yourself and your family at risk by avoiding medical science. It's irresponsible and can even be seen as cruel. At this point, it's not even about trying to show you where you're wrong, but looking out for your family's safety and health. You don't even need to give up religion entirely to protect them, just drop the parts that put them at risk. If there was a good god in this world, there is no reason why he would want us all to be ignorant and sick.

 

[Joey D]

I really hate to say this, and I don't intend any offense, but I'm afraid that if you really believe that you are keeping yourself and your family healthy through your faith, then you are in for a major disappointment sooner or later.

There is plenty you can do to minimize your chances of falling ill - living a healthy lifestyle, eating well, avoiding risky activities etc. etc.... but 'godliness' is not one of them - and neither is being a good person/parent for that matter.

I'm not saying this to go against anything you're saying, because I do agree that faith alone will not protect your from illness, but I would say faith or "godliness" can have a positive effect on a person's health. Believing in something can help certain people cope with depression or have a stronger will to continue to fight against illness. I'm not saying that a supernatural being is protecting them or causing them to be cured, but I do think the mental aspect of belief can help people. There are going to be people that can find strength in other things or people for sure, but I personally can't dismiss the role faith can play in someone's health.

 

[FoRiZon]

I dont know but while avoiding doctors or such for yourself are pretty much okay (its your own life in the end), putting whole family to follow it are just so wrong its an uncountable noun.

 

[ECGadget]

I believe that faith in God does not mean that when something goes wrong you just pray and believe God will heal you. Because (following belief in God) God has given humans intellect. We have, and I am going to say this, evolved over the years. We have learnt new things, figured out how to make new things, and learnt how to improve our standards of living (in some ways anyway). So, God gives human intelligence. Human makes medication. A follower of God refuses to go to a doctor to get this medication to heal himself when he is ill. To me that sounds like you are rejecting a bounty that the Lord has given you through the intelligence of another human? What if you fall ill for say a week, but if you had medication you'd only be ill for two days. You would have missed out on being able to worship God for five days? I am by no means saying that do not have faith that God will heal you. Keep your faith there. But nothing comes on the plate, including getting better when you are ill. In my religion it is clearly encouraged a number of times to work hard and make use of what is available, because that is what it is there for. Whether it is technology or medicine or whatever.

I don't know. I suppose different people see things differently. Personally, I think medication is a product of human intelligence which ultimately was given to us by God. And being intelligent means we should take advantage of what we have. Use medication to heal ourselves. Explore science. Understand what we are. Try and solve the questions of the universe as best as we can. And never stop learning and trying to be better people until the day we die. But that is just me.

 

[squadops]

"condemned"

To what you already conclude to be true?

 

[LeMansAid]

I'm not saying this to go against anything you're saying, because I do agree that faith alone will not protect your from illness, but I would say faith or "godliness" can have a positive effect on a person's health. Believing in something can help certain people cope with depression or have a stronger will to continue to fight against illness. I'm not saying that a supernatural being is protecting them or causing them to be cured, but I do think the mental aspect of belief can help people. There are going to be people that can find strength in other things or people for sure, but I personally can't dismiss the role faith can play in someone's health.

Indeed. There's a reason why Alain de Botton's book Religion For Atheists exists.

 

[W3H5]

..,while trying to test the One who gave you life.

My mother?

In all honestly, both sides of this debate could argue until blue in the face because neither side will be brought to accept the other's beliefs. Many religious people will ignore the huge amounts of evidence and claim evolution is false because a Creator made us, while those with the evidence favouring logical reason will not be able to get through to a person of faith because they will be able to explain away their answers for a Creator with statements that they believe to be correct despite the overwhelming evidence against such claims.

Did man evolve? -

Religion: No! Man(kind) was created by a higher power.

Science: Yes! We have tons of evidence of natural selection and that we share a common ancestor with apes, although nothing (for this theory) is 100% conclusive, as is the way of scientific theory. We keep striving to collect data and get closer to a complete answer. If the theory is somehow disproved we can all accept it given the correct evidence and are able to change our view, that being the beauty of science.

Antitheist: Who created your Creator, mate?

And so on and so forth.

I do believe that a commandment of your book states that "Thou shalt worship no other God." If you were born in India, Mongolia, Turkey or even any place where The Bible isn't the primary fantasy story would you still accept this commandment? I don't think so.

If I was, for example, a Jedi (which I might be) and so blindly believed in the Force, a midiclorien-conceived child (virgin birth) and the all powerful Yoda you might go as far as calling me a nut job. So what is the difference between the Bible and Star Wars? Both tell of an all powerful force (God or The Force), both claim messianic prophesy (Jesus or Vader), both contain acts beyond scientific explanation (resurrection/ transcendence) and both are mainstream favourites. Although the Bible features actual historical figures, many accounts from it are no less sci-fi or fantasy that those from Star Wars, yet because the Bible is old and is firmly set in tradition its ludicrous statements are believed. Do you know that factually, the Koran is more historically correct (although it also contains inaccurate retelling of history, of which I do have evidence) so does that make what the Koran says more true than the Bible and probably a better book to follow?

Wait, I know your answer already, you'll say something like "I know in my heart that the bible is truthful." or some tosh along those lines. Don't you think that people of other faiths say the same thing, so what makes you right over them?

To quote a certain prominent biologist -

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.

and -

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.

The same guy also said that most religious people are Atheistic towards most of the Gods that have been worshipped throughout history. Do you believe in Thor, or Zeus or even Mercury? Why not?

Quotes available here if anyone is interested.

 

[MrSulu]

@DCP Exactly how ill would you let your children become before caving in and seeking medical attention?

Would you just sit on your arse praying and when they die it's simply because your god decided it was their time?

You would be ok with that?

 

[TenEightyOne]

@DCP Exactly how ill would you let your children become before caving in and seeking medical attention?

Would you just sit on your arse praying and when they die it's simply because your god decided it was their time?

You would be ok with that?

If the answer is that he'd rely on prayer then, by modern standards at least, it would be my opinion that he was unfit to parent.

 

[polysmut]

If the answer is that he'd rely on prayer then, by modern standards at least, it would be my opinion that he was unfit to parent.

Mine too, but I'm interested to hear arguments to the contrary. & of course, rebuttals thereto.

 

[DCP]

You're testing God to see if he really heals you. I'm testing God to see if he can influence anything in the world that I can observe. We're both looking for physical results to confirm our suspicions.

Honestly, I suspect that my life fulfills God's commandment better than a lot of Christians.

I put no other gods before God.
I do not make any graven images.
I sometimes take the Lord's name in vain, but 🤬 it, whatever. That's a bit of a crap one anyway.
I try not to work on Sunday. I try not to work on Saturday either, and if I can get days off during the week I'm happy to take them too.
I don't kill.
I don't commit adultery.
I don't steal.
I don't bear false witness, or covet all my neighbour's stuff. Or at least I try not to, I do get a little covetous when I see a nice car. One day I shall own an Alfa Romeo SZ...

In general I try to be a nice guy and help people out. I often fail, but I try to apologise and get on with it.

What more does God want? I do what he says, I just do it for me instead of Him. I do it because I think that they're good things to do, not because I was told to.

If being intelligent enough to figure out that these things are good in their own right is enough to disqualify me, then this is why I sometimes take the Lord's name in vain, because he sounds like a :censored:head.

I can only give a person my own testament.
I have given up allot of things my life was consumed by. Partying, alcohol, video games, worldly music, vulgar, violent and explicit movies etc. You might say it's easy to give up certain things, but try doing it permanently. It's only possible when you truly acknowledge the Lord, and are moved by His Spirit.

How am I honoring Him, and how is He blessing me? I am standing on His word, and His promises. My family and I are healed, blessed and have complete provision. What more can a man ask for, unless he is ungrateful?

Regarding the commandments, you say you don't kill and don't commit adultery.
Jesus said if you are angry towards your brother (neighbor), it's as good as killing him.
He said if you look at a woman with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart.
If you are going to tell me you have not done this, then I have to say you are lying, and that is bearing false witness...

These are the reasons why we fail everyday, if we truly consider Gods true commandments. We can put our pride aside and acknowledge that we need a Savior. Christ walked our road, and he knows exactly what we are going through, this is why He offers help. Like I say, if you acknowledge Him, call on Him, and thank Him for all you have, before engaging in the things of this world, then you will see His true Love in your future.

Why people worship other gods being born in other countries? Choice of past generations. One of them will break that chain of bondage, and the generation thereafter will call on the true Savior. As much as people say religion is dying, 1000 are being saved. The world is too big to know what is going on in each peoples lives. Jesus says many will choose the wide gate that leads to destruction. By many, I believe He means more then half the world prefers the pleasures of this world, (money, power, fame, fortune, greed etc)

I can only testify of my life. My father broke the generation of bowing down to Baal. If not, I would have probably become an atheist, because he did that after he lost both his parents from a stroke. He lost his 14 year old sister, and 30 year old brother. I can only marvel at Gods incredible Love when I look at my dad who has had a heart condition for around 10 years, after going through such a harsh past.
Perhaps both of my sisters and brother and I would be lost in this world. Only God knows how our future changes when we made the wrong or right choices.

It becomes very very easy to understand when you disregard the notion of the existence of an all powerful benign god. Usually it is just a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't believe so. It's past generations that are followed.

You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.…

See, there are things that you don't know too.

And yet you still rag on scientists for not knowing things as if that were somehow bad.

I'm not entirely sure you realise how two-faced your entire view of the universe is. You have one set of rules for yourself and those that you see as part of your group, and another set for everyone else.

In your rules for yourself, not knowing stuff is fine because you're trusting in God.
For everyone else, not knowing stuff is a terrible thing because they should be trusting in God.

That's not right.

I don't know nothing man... When I did, I was proud and boastful. What I learnt (still learning) is the word of God. What I see is the things around me, both natural and spiritual. If I can't see that alien mega structure at a star, then it's not there, irrespective of this evidence you talk of.

@DCP Exactly how ill would you let your children become before caving in and seeking medical attention?

Would you just sit on your arse praying and when they die it's simply because your god decided it was their time?

You would be ok with that?

The next day, if they still complain, I would take them for a check up, although as I've said, this has not been the case for 2 years, and as much as you agree with sciences chance and luck, you can't say it's luck that they haven't even picked up even a cough from another child in school. You see, as long as we keep believing, that's all, God will honor our hearts.

The secret, stop always be willing to trust in man. Change that mindset and start believing and trusting in God. Being thankful as well.

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Man, it is so simple, as drinking a glass of water. Just BELIEVE.
People are so stuck up, that even when they walked with Jesus, they couldn't believe it was He, even when He told them.

 

[Denur]

for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

And this is one of the main reasons I don't believe in the god of the Bible. An all powerful, all knowing being showing human emotions? It is so very obvious to me that your god did not make man in his image, but men made Him in their image.

they couldn't believe it was He, even when He told them.

"I am a Nigerian Prince, and don't know what to do with my wealth. I'd like to share it with you .... more bla bla ...... And you can trust this letter, because I am truly a prince".