Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

...why would not believing in a deity give you less of a reason to live?

Isn't the sheer opportunity to experience being alive enough?

Great question! Belief in the Abrahamic deity gives one a book of set rules to live by, including procreation. In the event the deity and his book are removed from the scene, it's reasonable to think that a certain degree of crass materialism and self-centeredness might enter the picture, possibly even alienation, nihilism, depression and self-destruction in certain instances. Not all humans are exemplary and self-actualizing (see Abraham Maslow).

 

[Sam48]

Great question! Belief in the Abrahamic deity gives one a book of set rules to live by, including procreation. In the event the deity and his book are removed from the scene, it's reasonable to think that a certain degree of crass materialism and self-centeredness might enter the picture, possibly even alienation, nihilism, depression and self-destruction in certain instances. Not all humans are exemplary and self-actualizing (see Abraham Maslow).

Added to that the feeling of knowing you won't have eternal life in heaven. That's pretty saddening.

 

[Duke]

Added to that the feeling of knowing you won't have eternal life in heaven. That's pretty saddening.

Why? You don't know you have an eternal life in heaven now. Neither do I, so I'm counting myself as lucky to have the one I'm sure I DO have - physical life here on Earth.

That's good enough for me - even at its worst, I'm enjoying the heck out of living it. It would be saddening for me to think that some arbitrary being I can't see or hear is going to judge my immortal soul for all eternity based on a few practice swings I get in my physical form.

Dotini: Having a set of rules is not important. Having a good set of rules is important, and I think the standard-issue Abrahamic commandments are fairly poorly thought out, and certainly overdue for some reconsideration.

 

[Sam48]

Why? You don't know you have an eternal life in heaven now. Neither do I, so I'm counting myself as lucky to have the one I'm sure I DO have - physical life here on Earth.

That's good enough for me - even at its worst, I'm enjoying the heck out of living it. It would be saddening for me to think that some arbitrary being I can't see or hear is going to judge my immortal soul for all eternity based on a few practice swings I get in my physical form.

I'm greatly enjoying the life here on earth as well. However, the thought of some day dying and leaving existence is quite a saddening thought, but when there's a heaven+eternal life to look forward to, all that sadness is no more. Even though no one is positively 100% sure there is a heaven, it acts as a mental safety net for christians/God believers.

Also, as I stated before, there is some evidence of an afterlife of some sort. As a christian, I can only describe that as purgatory, or a temporary place to non existent (on earth) whilst we wait for the second coming.

 

[Daverytimes]

So we are all god?

I'm not sure what you are exactly trying to say here.

Also, if he designed humans, he did a really bad job as we can't seem to agree on anything.

My point is that everything has a designer, someone intelligently thought of the things you see around you (and so did GOD).
you saying that GOD did a bad job in creating humans made me chuckle. if you think he did such a bad job, why are you still alive. you could easily shoot yourself in the head and die all because you think he did a bad job in creating you, and i highly doubt you will do that.

 

[niky]

My point is that everything has a designer, someone intelligently thought of the things you see around you (and so did GOD).
you saying that GOD did a bad job in creating humans made me chuckle. if you think he did such a bad job, why are you still alive. you could easily shoot yourself in the head and die all because you think he did a bad job in creating you, and i highly doubt you will do that.

No, they don't.

A tree doesn't grow through conscious design. It merely grows in a way that maximizes the available amount of sunlight. Yet people find the shape of trees "beautiful.

Humans? Designed? Well-designed?

Let me count the flaws...

1. Useless vestigial appendix

2. Useless vestigial tailbone

3. Complicated hormonal/chemical control of vital functions (if you've ever studied Human Anatomy, you'd despair at the complication), due to numerous systems that've been adapted from doing one thing for doing another.

4. Allergies, maladaptive immune defenses

5. Cancer, defective DNA-RNA copying

6. Only one set of adult teeth? Why can't mammals grow new teeth like reptiles?

7. Goose bumps. No use on an animal with no fur.

8. Lactose-intolerance

9. Useless plantar grasp reflex. (stroke a baby's foot and its toes will curl) We aren't monkeys. We don't need to cling to mommy's fur with our feet.

Actually, come to think of it... we can't cling to anything with our feet.

10. Blind spot (you'd think an intelligent designer would design it so that the optic nerve coupling didn't occupy prime real estate right in the middle of the retina.

The "intelligent designer" for the octopods got it more right... they have no blind spot.

-

I could go on and on and on...

 

[Daverytimes]

No, they don't.

A tree doesn't grow through conscious design. It merely grows in a way that maximizes the available amount of sunlight. Yet people find the shape of trees "beautiful.

Humans? Designed? Well-designed?

Let me count the flaws...

1. Useless vestigial appendix

2. Useless vestigial tailbone

3. Complicated hormonal/chemical control of vital functions (if you've ever studied Human Anatomy, you'd despair at the complication), due to numerous systems that've been adapted from doing one thing for doing another.

4. Allergies, maladaptive immune defenses

5. Cancer, defective DNA-RNA copying

6. Only one set of adult teeth? Why can't mammals grow new teeth like reptiles?

7. Goose bumps. No use on an animal with no fur.

8. Lactose-intolerance

9. Useless plantar grasp reflex. (stroke a baby's foot and its toes will curl) We aren't monkeys. We don't need to cling to mommy's fur with our feet.

Actually, come to think of it... we can't cling to anything with our feet.

10. Blind spot (you'd think an intelligent designer would design it so that the optic nerve coupling didn't occupy prime real estate right in the middle of the retina.

The "intelligent designer" for the octopods got it more right... they have no blind spot.

-

I could go on and on and on...

The things you listed does not say anything about GOD doing a bad job in creating you. for example if GOD did a bad job in creating you maybe he should have put your nose in between your butt-cheeks(now thats an example of a bad job). you being alive this moment is prove that he did not do a bad job.

 

[niky]

The things you listed does not say anything about GOD doing a bad job in creating you. for example if GOD did a bad job in creating you maybe he should have put your nose in between your butt-cheeks(now thats an example of a bad job). you being alive this moment is prove that he did not do a bad job.

I'd consider a hereditary propensity towards diabetes and arthritis, as well as sleep apnea, arrhythmia and liver problems poor design. I was a runner in College. Can't do that now. Thank you God for giving me great knees.

And whose stupid idea was it to link the respiratory tract and digestive tract through the throat? Although spurting milk out your nose is probably preferable to spurting whatever comes out from between your butt-cheeks, I doubt the thousands of people who choke to death every year will agree with you that our airways are well-designed. Or they likely wouldn't agree with you if you could actually get the dead to talk.

The fact that I'm alive at this moment proves the viability of the "design". It doesn't prove it's good. Even a Yugo will make it past the factory gates. Doesn't mean it'll last more than a few years without falling apart.

Human bodies are built to last at least 35 years, after which they start falling apart. Which takes another 35-50 years, give or take, unless you're exceptionally lucky or genetically gifted.

The fact that, unlike the legendary Adam, I won't live to the ripe old age of 900 years proves that I wasn't built to last that long. And if I am Adam's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-something-or-the-other-grandson, shouldn't I have the same basic design?

Don't you think we ought to be at least a bit tee'd off that he gave us all Yugos for bodies instead of Mercedes Benzes, like Adam apparently got?

-

Whether our bodies were designed as they are or whether they evolved to their current state from previous organisms (and there's lots of proof in genetics of currently occuring human evolution if you ever bother to look it up) does not prove or disprove the existence of God.

Neither does a ham sandwich, but that's another story.

Who's to say that he didn't cause the Big Bang and create the Universe as it is? Writing coding into the fundamental laws of the Universe to encourage the development of life?

If you want to take up the Creation versus Evolution argument, take it to the appropriate (and extremely long thread).

 

[Daverytimes]

I'd consider a hereditary propensity towards diabetes and arthritis, as well as sleep apnea, arrhythmia and liver problems poor design. I was a runner in College. Can't do that now. Thank you God for giving me great knees.

And whose stupid idea was it to link the respiratory tract and digestive tract through the throat? Although spurting milk out your nose is probably preferable to spurting whatever comes out from between your butt-cheeks, I doubt the thousands of people who choke to death every year will agree with you that our airways are well-designed. Or they likely wouldn't agree with you if you could actually get the dead to talk.

The fact that I'm alive at this moment proves the viability of the "design". It doesn't prove it's good. Even a Yugo will make it past the factory gates. Doesn't mean it'll last more than a few years without falling apart.

Human bodies are built to last at least 35 years, after which they start falling apart. Which takes another 35-50 years, give or take, unless you're exceptionally lucky or genetically gifted.

The fact that, unlike the legendary Adam, I won't live to the ripe old age of 900 years proves that I wasn't built to last that long. And if I am Adam's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-something-or-the-other-grandson, shouldn't I have the same basic design?

Don't you think we ought to be at least a bit tee'd off that he gave us all Yugos for bodies instead of Mercedes Benzes, like Adam apparently got?

-

Whether our bodies were designed as they are or whether they evolved to their current state from previous organisms (and there's lots of proof in genetics of currently occuring human evolution if you ever bother to look it up) does not prove or disprove the existence of God.

Neither does a ham sandwich, but that's another story.

Who's to say that he didn't cause the Big Bang and create the Universe as it is? Writing coding into the fundamental laws of the Universe to encourage the development of life?

If you want to take up the Creation versus Evolution argument, take it to the appropriate (and extremely long thread).

I certainly hate to drag on arguments as you have seen from my previous posts, and i certainly don't type a lot since it is midnight here i will try to get some sleep, i will provide you with some serious long reply tomorrow. you listed a couple of things that you think is not right about the way we are created and forget the million other things that make us unique and great.

 

[Famine]

goodnight and pray before you go to sleep or you might not wake up.

I have 11,969 data points that say that's not likely.

 

[niky]

you listed a couple of things that you think is not right about the way we are created and forget the million other things that make us unique and great.

I don't forget. I'm just pointing out that if we were designed from the ground-up, there are a number of design features that I wouldn't expect to see incorporated into our design.

"Think"? Pray tell... what's actually right with any of the things I've mentioned? And please, don't give me the staid old fall-back of "what is is what is meant to be." (yes, I totally izzed that)

goodnight and pray before you go to sleep or you might not wake up.

Funny. I've woken up the 10,000+++++ other times I've gone to sleep without praying.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Also, as I stated before, there is some evidence of an afterlife of some sort. As a christian, I can only describe that as purgatory, or a temporary place to non existent (on earth) whilst we wait for the second coming.

some evidence? the second coming? who?

I have 11,969 data points that say that's not likely.

I've woken up the 10,000+++++ other times I've gone to sleep without praying.

Watch out, any believer knows you are lucky, in heaven there are plenty of casual staff and with the paperwork they don't realize that you owe 30 years of prayers, soon they will send you the bill.

 

[Famine]

Loads of admin staff? Sounds like hell to me.

 

[DK]

My point is that everything has a designer, someone intelligently thought of the things you see around you (and so did GOD).

Bullcrap. Stop putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "la-la-la-la" repeatedly when you hear about scientific proof of evolution. Yes, someone designed some of the things I see. But that doesn't include the trees, other people walking by or a dog taking a dump on my neighbour's front garden and the cat it's about to chase.

you saying that GOD did a bad job in creating humans made me chuckle.

I prefer to laugh at Mock the Week videos on YouTube instead.

if you think he did such a bad job, why are you still alive.

Advancements in medical science. And also that my parents didn't have an abortion, and also because they have enough money to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. Do you seriously think that people die because God doesn't like them? Grow up.

you could easily shoot yourself in the head and die all because you think he did a bad job in creating you, and i highly doubt you will do that.

Are you actually telling me to kill myself? I thought you creationists hated suicide.

I certainly hate to drag on arguments as you have seen from my previous posts, and i certainly don't type a lot since it is midnight here i will try to get some sleep, i will provide you with some serious long reply tomorrow.

You're dragging them on because you believe in a book that is full of contradictions and you're dismissing the discoveries of smart human beings for something that was copied from other myths and legends that are thousands of years old.

you listed a couple of things that you think is not right about the way we are created and forget the million other things that make us unique and great.

I'm definitely nominating you an award named after a man you think is currently in Hell (AKA the Darwin Award). Humans are unique, but so are the many species of monkey, the many species of shark, the many species of fish...damn, I can go on and on here. The thing that makes humans unique is called DNA. God isn't involved in mutating every little gene and chromosome in a strand of DNA. Read a few books that aren't written by some preacher who would probably be put in a mental institute if they lived somewhere else.

goodnight and pray before you go to sleep or you might not wake up.

I haven't prayed before I went to sleep since when I was around 5 or 6 years old. And, what do you know, I'm still breathing, moving, growing, doing all the things that characterise a living organism. What makes you think I'd start now because the Christian Taliban are telling me to do so? Next you'll be saying that God will set you on fire because you had sex before marriage.

 

[TheCracker]

goodnight and pray before you go to sleep or you might not wake up.

And there we have the crux of the issue that many people have with religion - the fear that is distilled into followers to please the gods or else!

 

[Sam48]

some evidence? the second coming? who?

Physic mediums show a small bit of evidence in support of an afterlife. Also, there have been millions of accounts regarding people seeing/contacting ghosts (believe in them or not).

Yes, the second coming. When Jesus returns and (as we were told) ends the world.

 

[Famine]

Physic mediums show a small bit of evidence in support of an afterlife.

No medium has ever been able to show ability in a control environment. They cannot be cited as evidence.

Also, there have been millions of accounts regarding people seeing/contacting ghosts (believe in them or not).

No ghost has ever been witnessed in a control environment. They cannot be cited as evidence.

 

[PAPPACLART]

This is a very interesting show, "The Secret Life of chaos". Basically explains how simple random mathamatics create all of the the complex life we se today.

Those of you that are not UK based will not be able to watch the show, but if you use your imagination I am sure you can find it somewhere on the web.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pv1c3

BBC make some fantastic documentaries. I am living in Italy at the moment but access all of my UK TV using this. http://www.purevpn.com/





Chaos theory has a bad name, conjuring up images of unpredictable weather, economic crashes and science gone wrong. But there is a fascinating and hidden side to Chaos, one that scientists are only now beginning to understand.

It turns out that chaos theory answers a question that mankind has asked for millennia - how did we get here?

In this documentary, Professor Jim Al-Khalili sets out to uncover one of the great mysteries of science - how does a universe that starts off as dust end up with intelligent life? How does order emerge from disorder?

It's a mindbending, counterintuitive and for many people a deeply troubling idea. But Professor Al-Khalili reveals the science behind much of beauty and structure in the natural world and discovers that far from it being magic or an act of God, it is in fact an intrinsic part of the laws of physics. Amazingly, it turns out that the mathematics of chaos can explain how and why the universe creates exquisite order and pattern.

And the best thing is that one doesn't need to be a scientist to understand it. The natural world is full of awe-inspiring examples of the way nature transforms simplicity into complexity. From trees to clouds to humans - after watching this film you'll never be able to look at the world in the same way again.



Ryan

 

[Duke]

The things you listed does not say anything about GOD doing a bad job in creating you. for example if GOD did a bad job in creating you maybe he should have put your nose in between your butt-cheeks(now thats an example of a bad job). you being alive this moment is prove that he did not do a bad job.

If you expect to be taken seriously, you're going to need to come up with a lot better than that. Seriously.

 

[DQuaN]

goodnight and pray before you go to sleep or you might not wake up.

Are you saying that if I do not pray tonight, God might kill me in my sleep?

He sounds like a lovely fellow!

 

[Duke]

Are you saying that if I do not pray tonight, God might kill me in my sleep?

He sounds like a lovely fellow!

That's the least of it, and quite par for the course for the bitter, petty, jealous, and ruthless god of the Old Testament.

 

[PAPPACLART]

The things you listed does not say anything about GOD doing a bad job in creating you. for example if GOD did a bad job in creating you maybe he should have put your nose in between your butt-cheeks(now thats an example of a bad job). you being alive this moment is prove that he did not do a bad job.

The reason why my nose is where it is and not up my but is a simple design of evolution. Humans are the product of there enviroment and our ergonomics are designed to make best use of it like all living creatures.

Imagine you had a huge staircase; each step up was like a wall in height with each step as you went up getting marginally higher for each transition. Now if we had a group of people, only the tallest of that group would be able to climb the steps. So let’s say 20% of the people as they were tall enough could climb the first step to reach their food leaving the shorter people to die of starvation. That 20% feast and then procreate. Now the next step up is a little higher than the first step, only 50% of the original 20% can reach the next step but before they move on they procreate. The population of the original 20% how now doubled, and the offspring are mostly tall as their parents were the top 20% of the tallest people from the original population. Out of the offspring, 85% are tall enough to reach the next step, and they travel with 50% of their parents who are also tall enough for the next step of which they reach, leaving the rest to die of starvation below. This process goes on, and the population will continue to evolve taller off spring providing the evolutionary challenge (of climbing the stairs) stays linear. If for whatever reason the population reach a step that is too high, then the danger is that they all may not be able to progress and then they all die. This how extinction happens, sudden environmental changes!!

Now, what if that single poplulation reached a step, that forked, both going in different directions, the steps on the left continue to go up, just like the original steps up to that point, but the steps on the right are slightly different, with a small gap in between each step which has to be jumped before you can climb the step, with each gap geting wider as the steps assend. We have now introduced an enviromental change, the population have a choice, and splits 50/50, one group sticking to the left, continuing one evolutionary path up the stairs, the other group taking the path with the jump as well as the climb. Now the adventures group who chose 'right' now have to jump accross a gap to reach the step in-order to climb. Like before, only the most able can cross with the least able dying and so on!!

If we fast forward a little, and providing that both group's journey stayed linear, the group who stuck to the left would continue grow taller and taller, while the other group would also grow taller but would evolve a great ability to jump. Maybe they would have legs like frogs!! hahah

Evolution is very simple.

 

[Daverytimes]

Are you saying that if I do not pray tonight, God might kill me in my sleep?

He sounds like a lovely fellow!

Just a joke buddy

 

[Sam48]

No medium has ever been able to show ability in a control environment. They cannot be cited as evidence.
No ghost has ever been witnessed in a control environment. They cannot be cited as evidence.

Why does would an unexplainable event not count as evidence even when it's not under a controlled environment? If I see hundreds of UFOs along with millions of astronomers and spectators, why would it not count as evidence toward the existence of UFOs even though it didn't happen in a controlled environment?

 

[DQuaN]

That's the least of it, and quite par for the course for the bitter, petty, jealous, and ruthless god of the Old Testament.

Indeed. Isn't eating shellfish a sin?

Why does would an unexplainable event not count as evidence even when it's not under a controlled environment? If I see hundreds of UFOs along with millions of astronomers and spectators, why would it not count as evidence toward the existence of UFOs even though it didn't happen in a controlled environment?

It would, if that ever actually happened. I don't think god has ever appeared in front of millions scientists. Or a medium has proved their ability in front of millions of scientists.

 

[TheCracker]

Why does would an unexplainable event not count as evidence even when it's not under a controlled environment? If I see hundreds of UFOs along with millions of astronomers and spectators, why would it not count as evidence toward the existence of UFOs even though it didn't happen in a controlled environment?

It still wouldn't if the only evidence was eye-witness accounts. Even millions of eye-witness accounts.

 

[DQuaN]

It still wouldn't if the only evidence was eye-witness accounts. Even millions of eye-witness accounts.

I think millions of eye-witness accounts would count as evidence. It's just never going to happen.

 

[Famine]

Why does would an unexplainable event not count as evidence even when it's not under a controlled environment?

Unexplainable? Nothing is "unexplainable" - just "unexplained to date". For which, incidentally, neither "mediums" nor "ghosts" qualify.

If I see hundreds of UFOs along with millions of astronomers and spectators, why would it not count as evidence toward the existence of UFOs even though it didn't happen in a controlled environment?

You managed to ask the question and provide the answer at the same time. Incidentally, UFOs do exist. Any aerial object with an unknown origin is a UFO.

I think you need to work on what it is you mean when you ask the things you're asking.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Yes, the second coming. When Jesus returns and (as we were told) ends the world.

I see, then Jesus will return to destroy the world and to judge the mankind (it sounds like revenge), but everyone or only believers?

By the way, where are the muslims, hindus, buddhists...? Are not there any on this forum?

 

[Northstar]

I see, then Jesus will return to destroy the world and to judge the mankind (it sounds like revenge), but everyone or only believers?

I hope he has a panel or something, because 1 person judging 6 billion people is going to take a long time.


That's another thing I don't get about religious folks, they truly believe 1 man can see everything everyone in the world(all 6 billion of them) is doing all the time.

As for your second part, I think there was a Muslim member posting in this thread awhile ago, could be thinking of a different thread though.