Do you believe in God?

[CSLACR]

It could have been written by God and then changed later. Or maybe only parts of it were written by God.

Your stance has the same issue that Pascal's wager does. It incorrectly boils down all the possibilities to two arbitrary choices. In reality there are many. Choosing one view and refusing to change that view based on evidence is a pretty bad choice to make if you want to pick the right choice though.

Yeah, cuz an almighty god is just too stupid to relay his message properly.
Or he didn't have control over his hired writers.
What a helpless, useless chump.

Being real and needing to be interpreted are two different things. If you believe that, for instance, the bible is the word of god, then you've got these options:

1. The bible is the word of god, and it needs to be interpreted
2. The bible is the word of god, and it doesn't need to be interpreted

Both options are based on assumptions, the first option on the assumption that the text is not to be taken literally; and the second option on the assumption that it is to be taken literally. Neither is more or less logical than the other, when the only circumstance you consider is that it is the word of god.

When it comes to modern christianity, only the most conservative branches of protestant christianity believes in sola scriptura ("by scripture alone", basically "the word is the word - end of story"). Almost everyone believes that some interpretation is needed.

Of course, how else can we continue to believe in what is clearly nonsense.
Poor god, he doesn't have control over any of this.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Not to ruffle any feathers, but I have more respect for people that follow religion properly than people who adapt the bible constantly to fit their life.
If there is a god, and he did write a book, it shouldn't be taken lightly, and scribbled out.

I agree with you. If you are going to choose to follow religion (no matter what it is), you should be willing to follow it in ALL aspects of your life, not just the ones that it does you good for. This is where a lot of spiritual people fail, because they want to pick and choose as you said. This is also part of being human though, we don't particularly like to admit our faults and allow change to overcome every aspect of our lives... after all to most, "doing bad, feels good". Not saying this is the case with myself or anyone in particular here, just what I've witnessed in my personal life.

As for your comment on God and His writing of a book (in this case, the Bible) I tend to hold a viewpoint far different than my fellow Christian believers because of my refusal to fall in with the crowd. I don't discredit the Bible for all it's worth that it does have, nor do I discredit that it does contain accuracies or historical facts of what really happened, but I do think it has been heavily altered from it's beginning (things added and taken away at the will of whatever group passed it along, depending on what they wanted people to know.) We see this same action take place with history books in school, so I don't see why it would be a big surprise for it to happen in a book as old as the Bible.

I'm starting to get tangled up in what I'm trying to say, so I'll just leave this for now.

 

[CSLACR]

I agree with you. If you are going to choose to follow religion (no matter what it is), you should be willing to follow it in ALL aspects of your life, not just the ones that it does you good for. This is where a lot of spiritual people fail, because they want to pick and choose as you said. This is also part of being human though, we don't particularly like to admit our faults and allow change to overcome every aspect of our lives... after all to most, "doing bad, feels good". Not saying this is the case with myself or anyone in particular here, just what I've witnessed in my personal life.

As for your comment on God and His writing of a book (in this case, the Bible) I tend to hold a viewpoint far different than my fellow Christian believers because of my refusal to fall in with the crowd. I don't discredit the Bible for all it's worth that it does have, nor do I discredit that it does contain accuracies or historical facts of what really happened, but I do think it has been heavily altered from it's beginning (things added and taken away at the will of whatever group passed it along, depending on what they wanted people to know.) We see this same action take place with history books in school, so I don't see why it would be a big surprise for it to happen in a book as old as the Bible.

I'm starting to get tangled up in what I'm trying to say, so I'll just leave this for now.

I find it impossible to believe an almighty god went to all that trouble having this book made to last the remaining years of Earths time, to teach everyone, and then he just left people change it when he was done.
Especially to the points of inaccuracy contained.

 

[TenEightyOne]

As for your comment on God and His writing of a book (in this case, the Bible)

He didn't write the bibble though, that's the point.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

I find it impossible to believe an almighty god went to all that trouble having this book made to last the remaining years of Earths time, to teach everyone, and then he just left people change it when he was done.
Especially to the points of inaccuracy contained.

See that's the problem though. The Bible was made to last the remaining years of Earth's time (however long that may be of course), but we all have this little thing called free-will. Regardless of your spiritual beliefs, free-will is very real and it's what allows us all to be different. Regardless of God sharing things in the form of the Bible, there have still been thousands of years of the Bible being passed down through generations of splits in the churches, and violence, and disagreements and of course controversy. This is not to mention the possible errors with translating it from it's original language.

My point being that, while there may be original context within the bible, I find it hard to believe that it is all 100% accurate as many believe.

@TenEightyOne .. I know He didn't write the book. That's a given and any person who knows history could tell you that. I was elaborating more on the other things he mentioned.

 

[squadops]

True believers don't worry too much about that stuff because..

Romans 2:15 and 2nd Timothy 2:15

 

[eran0004]

I find it impossible to believe an almighty god went to all that trouble having this book made to last the remaining years of Earths time, to teach everyone, and then he just left people change it when he was done.
Especially to the points of inaccuracy contained.

Well, if you believe in christianity, then he did come back (through Jesus) to change it. And if you believe in Islam, then he came back again about 600 years later for another revision.

And maybe he's not even done yet, maybe he'll change it again within a hundred years or so? So it was hardly made to last the remaining years of Earth's time.

 

[CSLACR]

See that's the problem though. The Bible was made to last the remaining years of Earth's time (however long that may be of course), but we all have this little thing called free-will. Regardless of your spiritual beliefs, free-will is very real and it's what allows us all to be different. Regardless of God sharing things in the form of the Bible, there have still been thousands of years of the Bible being passed down through generations of splits in the churches, and violence, and disagreements and of course controversy. This is not to mention the possible errors with translating it from it's original language.

My point being that, while there may be original context within the bible, I find it hard to believe that it is all 100% accurate as many believe.

@TenEightyOne .. I know He didn't write the book. That's a given and any person who knows history could tell you that. I was elaborating more on the other things he mentioned.

So god is all powerful, except he can't get an accurate book published and maintained? Really? He can kill a mans family and have him swallowed by a fish, for a bet with lucifer, but he can't intervene when someone alters the bible? He can speak to people, but he couldn't help people translate it right? So of course, now just so conveniently, we have to figure out "with our hearts" what he means by telling us to cast raped women from society.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

True believers don't worry too much about that stuff because..

Romans 2:15 and 2nd Timothy 2:15

You're right. But even as a "True Believer" I still have a hard time believing that the Bible as we have it today is 100% accurate to how it was first written, for the reasons above. It doesn't make me any worse of a person (maybe a worse Christian to some people), but it still doesn't change what I identify with.

So god is all powerful, except he can't get an accurate book published and maintained? Really? He can kill a mans family and have him swallowed by a fish, for a bet with lucifer, but he can't intervene when someone alters the bible? He can speak to people, but he couldn't help people translate it right? So of course, now just so conveniently, we have to figure out "with our hearts" what he means by telling us to cast raped women from society.

I guess you're not even reading what I'm saying... It's pretty obvious to me that you don't believe in God, and while that isn't a problem with me, at least I'm still trying to be respectful of your beliefs in my responses. Again, FREE WILL if you read my post allows all things possible even separate from God. But here you are, skipping past most my words and picking and choosing what you want to see. Not to mention that some things change as time progresses so of course some things written then, don't apply now... such as the raped women scenario.

 

[CSLACR]

I guess you're not even reading what I'm saying... It's pretty obvious to me that you don't believe in God, and while that isn't a problem with me, at least I'm still trying to be respectful of your beliefs in my responses. Again, FREE WILL if you read my post allows all things possible even separate from God. But here you are, skipping past most my words and picking and choosing what you want to see. Not to mention that things change in as time progresses so of course some things written then, don't apply now... such as the raped women scenario.

Free Will. Got it. So God doesn't intervene? Never heard a christian claim that before, but, I have heard christian's change their beliefs to keep them possible. Right now, to further your case, it's beneficial to believe god never intervenes, because of free will. He can't guard anything from free will of destruction. Except the Israelites, of course.


How, don't women get raped today?

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Free Will. Got it. So God doesn't intervene? Never heard a christian claim that before, but, I have heard christian's change their beliefs to keep them possible. Right now, to further your case, it's beneficial to believe god never intervenes, because of free will. He can't guard anything from free will of destruction. Except the Israelites, of course.


How, don't women get raped today?

God can and does intervene, yes. But it is not on a daily basis, nor is it for every scenario... which is the reason why we were made with free will. God wanted us to be able to act and make decision on our own, apart from Him because He can't be at our every call. It also allows me to believe in God, and you to not.

And again... you are taking my words and twisting them. I DID NOT say that women don't get raped in today's society. I am very much aware that it is a very serious and prevalent issue all across the world. You mentioned previously that the bible in parts suggests to "cast raped women from society". I was responding by pointing out that times were different when the bible was written, so given the time period, it isn't really a big surprise that this mentality was included in the bible.

If you're going to respond to me and discuss, fine but please try to not twist my words.

 

[squadops]

I'll claim it, there are quite a few of us who believe in dispensationalism.

 

[CSLACR]

God can and does intervene, yes. But it is not on a daily basis, nor is it for every scenario... which is the reason why we were made with free will. God wanted us to be able to act and make decision on our own, apart from Him because He can't be at our every call. It also allows me to believe in God, and you to not.

And again... you are taking my words and twisting them. I DID NOT say that women don't get raped in today's society. I am very much aware that it is a very serious and prevalent issue all across the world. You mentioned previously that the bible in parts suggests to "cast raped women from society". I was responding by pointing out that times were different when the bible was written, so given the time period, it isn't really a big surprise that this mentality was included in the bible.

If you're going to respond to me and discuss, fine but please try to not twist my words.

I asked you a question, because you didnt say "why", try to settle down and not act like....another angry religious person.

So explain to me why it was reasonable to cast raped women then but isn't now?

 

[squadops]

See above.

 

[CSLACR]

See above.

Which came about because of current religion (at the time) expiring. AKA changing it to fit your lifestyle, AKA "modern times".
In other words, we've realized this book is hogwash, here is v2.0.

 

[squadops]

You could look at it that way, I don't but it's fair.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

I'll claim it, there are quite a few of us who believe in dispensationalism.

I didn't even know what this was. Had to look it up

I asked you a question, because you didnt say "why", try to settle down and not act like....another angry religious person.

So explain to me why it was reasonable to cast raped women then but isn't now?

I have no problem with asking me a question for not saying "why", and I'm not angry at any of this except when my words get twisted.

As for the rape, let's simply compare the viewpoint on women during "Biblical Times" compared to now and there you should have your answer. NOT speaking on what the bible says specifically, but what we know of the times, Women then were saw as little more than keeping up the living quarters, being a mom and cooking. They were not typically held in the same light as men, and they were definitely not allowed the same opportunities. Today, women are able to do most everything a man can and can hold highly powerful positions. Even with things like pornography, which let's be honest completely degrades women, women still hold more pertinence today. If a woman get's raped, it is a terrible terrible thing yes, but it does not degrade a woman like it would have during biblical times. Rape is not easily preventable nor is it a choice of the victim and society has really changed it's view over time.

The Bible sometimes can be very split on topics of course as there are parts that also refer to women as being equal to men and being cherished.

EDIT: I know rape IS degrading for women, but what I'm trying to say is that today's society (mostly), won't cast out a woman simply for being victim of rape.

 

[CSLACR]

I didn't even know what this was. Had to look it up



I have no problem with asking me a question for not saying "why", and I'm not angry at any of this except when my words get twisted.

As for the rape, let's simply compare the viewpoint on women during "Biblical Times" compared to now and there you should have your answer. NOT speaking on what the bible says specifically, but what we know of the times, Women then were saw as little more than keeping up the living quarters, being a mom and cooking. They were not typically held in the same light as men, and they were definitely not allowed the same opportunities. Today, women are able to do most everything a man can and can hold highly powerful positions. Even with things like pornography, which let's be honest completely degrades women, women still hold more pertinence today. If a woman get's raped, it is a terrible terrible thing yes, but it does not degrade a woman like it would have during biblical times. Rape is not easily preventable nor is it a choice of the victim and society has really changed it's view over time.

The Bible sometimes can be very split on topics of course as there are parts that also refer to women as being equal to men and being cherished.

EDIT: I know rape IS degrading for women, but what I'm trying to say is that today's society (mostly), won't cast out a woman simply for being victim of rape.

Of course men ruled women, and of course they cast out the raped ones back then.
The Bible told them to.

 

[squadops]

I didn't even know what this was. Had to look it up

Now we wait for our king.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Of course men ruled women, and of course they cast out the raped ones back then.
The Bible told them to.

None of the books of the bible were even started until after Jesus was dead... But whatever.

Up until the point of Jesus dying all word and beliefs were spoken amongst each other and passed through generations of believers. This is a huge reason many convicted Jesus of heresy

 

[FoRiZon]

Anyway, I found this very fitting: A friend of mine and the father of my best friend from Kindergarten is actually a priest in Topeka, Kansas. He's one of the smartest and greatest persons I know and these are the things his church posts on Facebook:

Wow. Your church must be really progressive. I'll respond to your each poster.

I'm actually thought that science itself is the creation of god. Im not interested in comparing holy book says to real science. But in my opinion god creates physics, chemistry, and other science thing and by learning and protecting it means i respect gods creation. One mans opinion here.

THIS!!! This is what im very, very bugged off sometimes when i facing some religious figures (like the point I was said). It supposed to be a moral support for their own (to each person ways), not to preach others what to do (on their way). I backed away from them because by the time they do the latter, it became a one way (often times harsh, stereotypical, poorly researched, and generalized) communication without individual problems acknowledgement.

I think this is the main reason extremism exists nowadays. They want many people, even by same religion, to do the same righteous way they think and do and look at the results.

I often times thought that most of religious issues nowadays is because of the human nature. Extremism and such exists on all organizations (religious and non-religious) and they mostly follows the same pattern. Either jealousy, fear, gang mentality, revolution, etc. Its just, unfortunately, religion has become a very easy target to be twisted into their political needs just by plastering "god", "death", and "sin" onto their speeches. They uses fear to control people.

The reality though is that radicalism, extremism, etc will exist in this world until the end of times.

They're also accepting everyone regardless of sexuality or race.

Fully agreed. Dont let the religion become one of your primordial/gang needs to exclude others just because they are different than yours (besides skin color, race, nationality, etc). Everyone is born human and equal and we should give them a chance. Atleast be nice.

 

[CSLACR]

None of the books of the bible were even started until after Jesus was dead... But whatever.

Up until the point of Jesus dying all word and beliefs were spoken amongst each other and passed through generations of believers. This is a huge reason many convicted Jesus of heresy

So they passed word from god down to cast raped women out. As opposed to passing word from god.
Christians also create their own sins, as the Bible doesn't actually state anything against masturbation or sex out of wedlock, iirc, yet these have been taught as very, very naughty sins for a large portion of the religion's existence.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

So they passed word from god down to cast raped women out. As opposed to passing word from god.
Christians also create their own sins, as the Bible doesn't actually state anything against masturbation or sex out of wedlock, iirc, yet these have been taught as very, very naughty sins for a large portion of the religion's existence.

Christians create what sin is, yes as it has been passed down since the beginning for us... but these things aren't particularly approved of by society as a whole either. You don't have to be a Christian to still have morals/values.

 

[CSLACR]

Christians create what sin is, yes as it has been passed down since the beginning for us... but these things aren't particularly approved of by society as a whole either. You don't have to be a Christian to still have morals/values.

So morals aren't from the Bible, now they're just by society, aka our lifestyle?
Nice.
So in the right country, different actions might not be a sin?

 

[squadops]

Morality is absolute, there is no room for nuance.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

So morals aren't from the Bible, now they're just by society, aka our lifestyle?
Nice.
So in the right country, different actions might not be a sin?

No. Morals are not specifically from the bible. Take any course on Ethics and you might know that.

Sin still applies to everyone, but you wouldn't really understand it unless you identify Christian. Especially with the attitude you hold. Even different religions than Christianity hold their own code of ethics or equivalents to what sin is, tho it may differ from country to country of course.

To put it simply, you don't need to be spiritual to have morals. Being Christian gives us another set of "rules" if you will of which to live by but it doesn't mean that being Atheist makes it acceptable to commit certain things such as sex out of marriage, thievery, battery, murder etc. I mean you wouldn't murder someone right? That's a moral placed on you from society... and apparently not the Bible or Christianity in your case

 

[FoRiZon]

So morals aren't from the Bible, now they're just by society, aka our lifestyle?

Yes. religion may take part of it but in the end is the society that either reject or accept it.

So in the different country, different actions might not be a sin?

FTFY. And sadly yes. Different culture and religion, different definition of sin.

 

[squadops]

Conscience is the most sacred of all property

Now following the rule of law is altogether different, we must follow the law of man and some of us also follow the law of God. No matter how you slice it our morals our are own, we didn't need to be taught them.

 

[huskeR32]

Regardless of your spiritual beliefs, free-will is very real and it's what allows us all to be different.

So you don't believe that God is omniscient then?

--

Now following the rule of law is altogether different, we must follow the law of man and some of us also follow the law of God.

What happens when they conflict with each other?

 

[PureAlpha1206]

So you don't believe that God was omniscient then?

I think, for myself, this is something very difficult to answer. Of course I believe, and we (Christians) are taught, that God is all knowing simply because of who he is. He is the creator of everything, and so he does in fact know our thoughts before we even think them... Simultaneously however, He also created free-will, for he created everything and this is why Eve ate from the tree in the story of Adam & Eve, for she had the capacity to make her own choices outside of God's will.

I think this almost becomes a question of believing in fate or not. Even going with the theory that everything has one ending (pre-decided by God), I think it could be argued that we can alter the outcome based on our decisions.

EDIT: I know this was kind of a roundabout answer but it's also a very difficult question.