Do you believe in God?

[squadops]

The omniscient argument has always interested me. My take is God must be but perhaps knowing all possible outcomes of our choice. I know that is not exactly omniscient but all the same, I'll be called an apologist anyway It goes much deeper than that but whatever.

If my religion conflicts with man's law it's an easy choice to me, 'render unto Caesar', that is because I do my best to live in the spirit.

Read Romans 13 if you care to, I'll need to check but I'm pretty sure there are the bits where Paul says that God put the governors there anyway 👍

edt, yup there you will find it, 1-3 or so.

 

[huskeR32]

I think, for myself, this is something very difficult to answer. Of course I believe, and we (Christians) are taught, that God is all knowing simply because of who he is. He is the creator of everything, and so he does in fact know our thoughts before we even think them... Simultaneously however, He also created free-will, for he created everythingand this is why Eve ate from the tree in the story of Adam & Eve, for she had the capacity to make her own choices outside of God's will.

That he "created free-will" doesn't change the fact that the concept conflicts with his supposed omniscience.

I think this almost becomes a question of believing in fate or not.

Calling his omniscience "fate" instead doesn't eliminate the conflict either.

Even going with the theory that everything has one ending (pre-decided by God), I think it could be argued that we can alter the outcome based on our decisions.

If so, then God doesn't know what's going to happen until we make our decisions, does he? Therefore, he is not omniscient.

EDIT: I know this was kind of a roundabout answer but it's also a very difficult question.

It sure is, and I appreciate your not getting defensive and attempting to tackle the question

However, I don't think you actually made any progress towards answering it.

--

My take is God must be but perhaps knowing all possible outcomes of our choice. I know that is not exactly omniscient but all the same, I'll be called an apologist anyway

"Not exactly" omniscient? It's not at all omniscient.

I'm a little confused by how easily you seem to shrug off acknowledging that one of the most fundamental attributes of your god isn't true. If he's not omniscient, why trust his commands? Why follow his will?

 

[squadops]

I won't give you the lame excuse that God works in mysterious ways. Your logic will not persuade me however, you already know that. I spend a decent amount of time looking at all sides, mostly on the philosophy side. I disagree that my take is not even close but I'm not willing to get dragged into a debate with you over it.

I tried to answer your questions, you can take that for what it is worth. BTW God cannot contradict man or science. You want me to define God, something I cannot do.

I think you will enjoy this short read.

When you come to look into this argument from design, it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all the things that are in it, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience have been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it. Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists? Moreover, if you accept the ordinary laws of science, you have to suppose that human life and life in general on this planet will die out in due course: it is a stage in the decay of the solar system; at a certain stage of decay you get the sort of conditions of temperature and so forth which are suitable to protoplasm, and there is life for a short time in the life of the whole solar system. You see in the moon the sort of thing to which the earth is tending -- something dead, cold, and lifeless.

 

[Bakemono36]

I voted, "maybe". Ive personally never seen or met God yet but that doesnt mean he/she/it doesnt exist. The universe is a very vast place and even when it comes to our own planet, we know very little, so who knows?
Ive adopted the Agnostic view that as of this moment, I dont believe in God but Im open to the possibility of it.

 

[huskeR32]

I won't give you the lame excuse that God works in mysterious ways. Your logic will not persuade me however, you already know that.

I'm less interested in persuading you of anything than I am of understanding why you believe the things you do.

I spend a decent amount of time looking at all sides, mostly on the philosophy side.

Do you care to expand upon this at all? How did you arrive at your current stance on it?

I disagree that my take is not even close but I'm not willing to get dragged into a debate with you over it.

Then I can't help but wonder, as I do with pretty much every Christian who has jumped into this thread, why you're even here.

You chose to come in here, and you chose to express your view, but then turned and ran the first time somebody asked you to discuss your views in more detail. What was the point of even saying anything in the first place?

I tried to answer your questions, you can take that for what it is worth.

Between this and the homosexuality thread, I'm noticing a pattern with you. You don't communicate things all that clearly, but then you just tell everyone else it's their fault for not being able to read your mind.

BTW God cannot contradict man or science.

Except that she does. Often and significantly.

If you want to hide from that, fine. But you should know that you joined a thread full of people that want to do the opposite - we want to discuss it.

You want me to define God, something I cannot do.

It seems that you're quite happy to define god, you just don't want to explain how you arrived at those definitions. Which, I suspect, is because you don't examine them very closely. If you'd like to demonstrate otherwise, I'd be very interested in hearing you out.

 

[squadops]

Oh I don't run from anything silly, and my words are clearer than you give me credit for. You seem to think if you can discredit the three o's that you can discredit God, that is not a possibility as we all already know.

I believe that I have always been and always will be as well. I tend to think that we all have the same knowledge of everything in one form or the other but we fail to realize our potential.(immortality)

You might think the God of the bible contradicts often, but I'm speaking of a true God. I examine my person God every day thank you.

You didn't care to respond to the quote, why is that? It is from a man I read of often.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

That he "created free-will" doesn't change the fact that the concept conflicts with his supposed omniscience.

Calling his omniscience "fate" instead doesn't eliminate the conflict either.

If so, then God doesn't know what's going to happen until we make our decisions, does he? Therefore, he is not omniscient.

It sure is, and I appreciate your not getting defensive and attempting to tackle the question

However, I don't think you actually made any progress towards answering it.

I agree I didn't exactly make any progress towards answering it, and I really wish I could, and I think that it honestly has no right or wrong answer, nor an agreeable outcome. You see, the idea of being omniscient, but allowing free-will to take place is nearly contradictory within itself. How can one thing (God) be all knowing, if He allows for everyone to make their own decisions and think on their own? Logic tells us this can't happen, but Faith tells us that somehow it can... at least to some extent.

 

[squadops]

It can and it does happen, if God knew you before you were born, and God has always been, have you not also?

 

[PureAlpha1206]

I voted, "maybe". Ive personally never seen or met God yet but that doesnt mean he/she/it doesnt exist. The universe is a very vast place and even when it comes to our own planet, we know very little, so who knows?
Ive adopted the Agnostic view that as of this moment, I dont believe in God but Im open to the possibility of it.

I used to consider myself Agnostic as well. It's probably part of why I think the way I do now, but I finally gave up on the questioning aspect of God existing and let Faith do it's work

 

[huskeR32]

You seem to think if you can discredit the three o's that you can discredit God, that is not a possibility as we all already know.

Those three Os form the very foundation upon which people try and promote divine authority. Why aren't they fair game for criticism?

--

my words are clearer than you give me credit for

I examine my person God every day thank you.

--

You didn't care to respond to the quote, why is that? It is from a man I read of often.

Because I didn't see how it furthered the discussion at hand. If you think it did, say so in your own words.

--

You see, the idea of being omniscient, but allowing free-will to take place is nearly contradictory within itself.

Exactly.

How can one thing (God) be all knowing, if He allows for everyone to make their own decisions and think on their own?

Exactly.

Logic tells us this can't happen

Exactly.

but Faith tells us that somehow it can... at least to some extent.

Omniscient doesn't mean "mostly all-knowing." It doesn't mean "knowledgeable about some things." It means "all knowing."

If free will exists, and therefore outcomes are not certain until the moment we make our decisions, then God isn't omniscient. Period.

You're quite clearly acknowledging this contradiction in your posts, yet you seem okay to just leave it unresolved. Why is that?

--

It can and it does happen, if God knew you before you were born, and God has always been, have you not also?

Unfalsifiable nonsense that allows you to dodge the issue.

 

[squadops]

Same as your three o's. You are not interested in a conversation at all, be honest with yourself and us as well please.

 

[huskeR32]

You are not interested in a conversation at all, be honest with yourself and us as well please.

This is a question that I posed out of a genuine interest to converse with you:

Those three Os form the very foundation upon which people try and promote divine authority. Why aren't they fair game for criticism?

Do you have an answer?

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Omniscient doesn't mean "mostly all-knowing." It doesn't mean "knowledgeable about some things." It means "all knowing."

If free will exists, and therefore outcomes are not certain until the moment we make our decisions, then God isn't omniscient. Period.

You're quite clearly acknowledging this contradiction in your posts, yet you seem okay to just leave it unresolved. Why is that?

You have a very interesting argument here, and you are making valid points. I just want to take a second to commend you for discussing this rationally, as it's obvious we have differing beliefs

Returning back to your comment, I am not okay leaving it unresolved. The problem being is that as a Christian, faith steps in and tells me that this is possible some how and some way. On the other hand logic tells me, no it is not possible for God to be all knowing, when it is obvious that man has free will. This is the tragedy with being both Christian and also a logical thinker. We are taught not to not question certain things, but I refuse to adhere to that simply because of what I choose to identify with.

I know you want me to have a perfect answer, but I can't as it doesn't make complete sense to me either.

 

[squadops]

Yes I do. How do you know what the three o's are and mean and can you fully understand them? We are speaking of an all knowing being, something that you are not. I know you won't like that much but there is your answer. And btw that Russell quote is very relevant seeing as he was speaking of two of the o's and how he considered the idea hogwash.

All you have to say is that the o's are not possible therefore God is not possible, that is nonsense and you know it. If no one can prove you otherwise you win yourself an internet cookie, that's it as near as I can tell


Here is something sitting on my notepad, it's not aimed particularly...

It is a matter of growth and expansion of life itself, and if we stray from being a positive asset we become just as a cancer cell on that body of life. It concerns me little that I am now in the flesh or why that needs to be so. It's not a riddle either, I'm speaking of the body of life which is something I believe we are all a part of.(again immortality)

Clear enough?

 

[huskeR32]

The problem being is that as a Christian, faith steps in and tells me that this is possible some how and some way. On the other hand logic tells me, no it is not possible for God to be all knowing, when it is obvious that man has free will. This is the tragedy with being both Christian and also a logical thinker.

Having been raised a Christian, I understand perfectly what you're describing.

What I'm most interested in is this:

We are taught not to not question certain things, but I refuse to adhere to that simply because of what I choose to identify with.

If I can be blunt, what are you going to do about this? One of those things has to give, right?

I know you want me to have a perfect answer, but I can't as it doesn't make complete sense to me either.

I actually care a lot less about your answer than I do about exploring the ways in which you think through it.

For me, in my own journey towards atheism, the cognitive dissonance that you describe was deafening. I simply couldn't ignore it.

--

How do you know what the three o's are and mean and can you fully understand them? We are speaking of an all knowing being, something that you are not.

So the problem lies in me not truly understanding a word that, in any other context, is quite clear and easy to understand?

It does nobody any good to move the goalposts around like that. Omniscient means what it means.

And btw that Russell quote is very relevant seeing as he was speaking of two of the o's and how he considered the idea hogwash.

I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said I didn't see how it furthered our conversation. And I still don't.

All you have to say is that the o's are not possible therefore God is not possible, that is nonsense and you know it.

I didn't make that leap. What I did ask was, if God is not omniscient, then:

(W)hy trust his commands? Why follow his will?

Start replying to me, and what I actually say, rather than the image you have in your head of the clueless, angry atheist.

It is a matter of growth and expansion of life itself, and if we stray from being a positive asset we become just as a cancer cell on that body of life. It concerns me little that I am now in the flesh or why that needs to be so. It's not a riddle either, I'm speaking of the body of life which is something I believe we are all a part of.(again immortality)

Clear enough?

No, because it leaves me wondering what constitutes being a "positive asset," and what constitutes being "a cancer." Also, it has nothing to do with omniscience, so I'm also a little unclear on how it relates to anything.

 

[squadops]

Only one question there worth answering imo.

To blindly trust 'his' commands and follow 'his' will is a preposterous notion, do you think that is what I do? Oh dear. As far as making the leap, what are you asking if not "if God cannot be all knowing he cannot exist"? I must be missing something.

This thread in a nutshell; some guy comes in and says he believes in God, 10 others come in to ask why, he tries to explain, 20 come in and tell him just how wrong he is. It's been that way for years, are you guys that insecure in your non beliefs?

 

[CSLACR]

Yes. religion may take part of it but in the end is the society that either reject or accept it.


FTFY. And sadly yes. Different culture and religion, different definition of sin.

Of course different religion's have different sins, because religion is required for sin to occur. Morals are not all from religion, but all religion's have their own morals. Confusing religious morals with society's isn't something I've heard before.

No. Morals are not specifically from the bible. Take any course on Ethics and you might know that.

Sin still applies to everyone, but you wouldn't really understand it unless you identify Christian. Especially with the attitude you hold. Even different religions than Christianity hold their own code of ethics or equivalents to what sin is, tho it may differ from country to country of course.

To put it simply, you don't need to be spiritual to have morals. Being Christian gives us another set of "rules" if you will of which to live by but it doesn't mean that being Atheist makes it acceptable to commit certain things such as sex out of marriage, thievery, battery, murder etc. I mean you wouldn't murder someone right? That's a moral placed on you from society... and apparently not the Bible or Christianity in your case

Ok, so two people could live identical lives and one could go to hell, and the other heaven?

Also, I don't know anybody that isn't religious that considers premarital sex a sin. People that aren't religious don't talk about sinning.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Having been raised a Christian, I understand perfectly what you're describing.

What I'm most interested in is this:

If I can be blunt, what are you going to do about this? One of those things has to give, right?

I actually care a lot less about your answer than I do about exploring the ways in which you think through it.

For me, in my own journey towards atheism, the cognitive dissonance that you describe was deafening. I simply couldn't ignore it.

Well no, neither of those has to give. I can still identify Christian, and still hold my questions to the side. My questioning of certain things comes as part of the person I am and it won't change. Other Christians may not approve of my method, as it isn't exactly what we are taught to do, but those are my choices and I'll have to deal with them later. In the end, I am saved and know I will see my God one day, and hopefully then will have all the answers.

 

[CSLACR]

Only one question there worth answering imo.

To blindly trust 'his' commands and follow 'his' will is a preposterous notion, do you think that is what I do? Oh dear. As far as making the leap, what are you asking if not "if God cannot be all knowing he cannot exist"? I must be missing something.

This thread in a nutshell; some guy comes in and says he believes in God, 10 others come in to ask why, he tries to explain, 20 come in and tell him just how wrong he is. It's been that way for years, are you guys that insecure in your non beliefs?

Except I came in and complained about people constantly changing their religion for convenience, and to keep it from sounding and being ridiculous, aka radicals. 2 people proceeded to tell me why we cannot trust the word of god, without so much as seeing the irony in that.

Where are these 20 people? Who exactly? 10?
You mean two?

 

[squadops]

I recognized that CSLACR.

Where are they? Just go back in the past to see 👍 Of course I did not mean those numbers literally but I feel justified in my comment all the same.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Ok, so two people could live identical lives and one could go to hell, and the other heaven?

Also, I don't know anybody that isn't religious that considers premarital sex a sin. People that aren't religious don't talk about sinning.

Well... If you're Christian, if someone hasn't trusted Jesus as their savior then no they don't go to Heaven regardless of how good of a person they are. Even if they are Christian.

 

[huskeR32]

To blindly trust 'his' commands and follow 'his' will is a preposterous notion, do you think that is what I do? Oh dear.

I don't know what you do, and your aimless answers haven't given me any additional insight. If you don't blindly follow everything your faith asks of you, then what stops you from just abandoning it full stop? How do you know which things to follow, and which ones to ignore?

As far as making the leap, what are you asking if not "if God cannot be all knowing he cannot exist"? I must be missing something.

You're missing the very clear question that I'll now post for a third time:

If he's not omniscient, why trust his commands? Why follow his will?

Notice that I'm not broaching the question of his existence at all.

This thread in a nutshell; some guy comes in and says he believes in God, 10 others come in to ask why, he tries to explain, 20 come in and tell him just how wrong he is. It's been that way for years, are you guys that insecure in your non beliefs?

Or, those 20 guys ask even more questions to try and reach a clearer idea about the initial explanations "some guy" gave. Leave the persecution complex at the door.

--

Well no, neither of those has to give.

But anytime you have a question that comes up with no answer, isn't that exactly what has happened? Hasn't your questioning side given in to your faith?

I can still identify Christian, and still hold my questions to the side.

How? I personally couldn't find a balance there, and I'm curious about how you do it.

 

[squadops]

Aimless answers, bs.

Oh I didn't realize how clear the question is, in that case, the same way your dog is loyal to you.

 

[huskeR32]

Aimless answers, bs.

Oh I didn't realize how clear the question is, in that case, the same way your dog is loyal to you.

My dog is pretty unwavering and unquestioning in his loyalty towards me. Most dogs are; it's what's so great (and so heartbreaking) about them.

Which pretty firmly goes against what you said here...

To blindly trust 'his' commands and follow 'his' will is a preposterous notion, do you think that is what I do? Oh dear.

...and leaves me no closer to understanding what you're trying to say.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

But anytime you have a question that comes up with no answer, isn't that exactly what has happened? Hasn't your questioning side given in to your faith?

Essentially you were asking me if I needed to choose one or the other. Either A. Choose to be Christian and throw all independent thinking out the window. Or B. Choose to be Atheist and be allowed to freely think as I wish. (At least that's how I took it anyhow)

My answer was that no, I do not need to choose. Again I am a Christian and none of this is going to sway my choice or my beliefs, but my questions are still there even though I let Faith lead the way. I'm sure to you it's either hypocritical or doesn't make sense, but to me it is simply not falling into the crowd. I still have the capacity to analyze the information in front of me even though I have the Faith to believe that God is real.

How? I personally couldn't find a balance there, and I'm curious about how you do it.

Honestly, it's a mess lol Like my brain never shuts off dude

 

[squadops]

I will make it very easy for you, to me the Lord represents everything that is right, I do my best to follow what is the absolute right.

If you can't understand that you are just typing words for the sake of it, and yes I used a dog for an example for the very reason you pointed out. I know you see it, you just want me to write a letter so you can show off your multi quote skills (my dogs are given plenty of freedoms btw, and they do question me)

I'm not Anne Frank nor do I need to be to get my point across clearly.

..

That reminds me, if anyone does have a trouble with dbl posting or the multi quote function, it is very easy to type [ quote][ /quote] and ctrl c and ctrl v the stuff into it 👍

 

[Exorcet]

Yeah, cuz an almighty god is just too stupid to relay his message properly.
Or he didn't have control over his hired writers.
What a helpless, useless chump.

God doesn't have to be perfect. I'd say the state of the world is proof of that.

 

[squadops]

Define perfect.

 

[CSLACR]

God doesn't have to be perfect. I'd say the state of the world is proof of that.

Don't tell me, I know.
Of course I've never heard a religious person state that.

Well... If you're Christian, if someone hasn't trusted Jesus as their savior then no they don't go to Heaven regardless of how good of a person they are. Even if they are Christian.

You were explaining how you feel society detetmines what sin is.
Different society = different sin. You said that.
Neither of us said anything about accepting Jesus. That's a semantic you made up to dodge the question.

Tell me more about how christians follow society and rely on them for moral code.
I'm especially interested because the Bible says not to follow the world and their wicked ways. Have you determined that part also doesn't count? How so?

 

[squadops]

You have heard a religious person say that, namely me.

As for your second post, do I need to find my response above because I can, I explained that to you also.

It is right here, or am I missing your question.

If my religion conflicts with man's law it's an easy choice to me, 'render unto Caesar', that is because I do my best to live in the spirit.

Read Romans 13 if you care to, I'll need to check but I'm pretty sure there are the bits where Paul says that God put the governors there anyway 👍

edt, yup there you will find it, 1-3 or so.

In reality there is no conflict, I stated that also somewhere recently.