Do you believe in God?

[squadops]

@CSLACR You do not need to 👍

 

[Famine]

You do not need to 👍

To whom and to what is that even referring?

Incidentally, if you want to reply to someone, use the quote functions. That way not only do they get notified but everyone can see who you're actually answering and it doesn't get lost because you've not made it clear.

If you highlight a small bit of text, you'll get a pop-up "+ Quote|Reply" notification. Hit "Reply" and that small bit of text is added to the Reply box.

 

[squadops]

I'm having some trouble with my keyboard @Famine, and my internet connection, bare with me. I know how to be polite and proper here, just having some trouble with the machine.

 

[Famine]

I'm having some trouble with my keyboard @Famine, and my internet connection, bare with me. I know how to be polite and proper here, just having some trouble with the machine.

You don't need your keyboard. Clicking "Reply" uses your mouse. Highlighting some text and clicking "Reply" uses your mouse.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Why can't I fathom sin, exactly?

You being atheist, can't even begin to understand what sin means to us on the same level. Of course I know that you know what sin is I'm not calling anyone stupid, but quite simply it doesn't and won't ever mean the same things to you as it does to me or any other Christian.

Uh-huh. Do you see atheists as unintelligent and unable to grasp things that you know thanks to your faith?

Aside from that, I understand menstruation and it doesn't apply to me in a personal sense.

And again... never once did I call out atheists as being unintelligent or any less able to grasp things than I. I love how words get twisted in this thread. You can refer to my response back to CSLACR to clear things up for you.

 

[squadops]

And again, no quote...
So then premarital sex isn't a sin...

That leads onto the question of intent. If you have sex knowing that conception is a possible outcome but do your best to ameliorate the possibility with contraception, do you only sin if a pregnancy occurs or is it a sin every time?

Is divorce - which leads to disruption of your two-parent system - a sin?
What if the couple are in a stable relationship and want children but do not wish to marry? Is that sinful?

To me, premarital sex with no intention of being able to raise a child in that event, is a sin. To me divorce is a sin, pick your partner better or suck it up, I know that is not realistic however but the good news is we will be forgiven.

No to you last question because as I've already said two confessing their love is marriage in the eyes of the Lord.

You don't need your keyboard. Clicking "Reply" uses your mouse. Highlighting some text and clicking "Reply" uses your mouse.

ok smarty pant

 

[Famine]

never once did I call out atheists as being unintelligent or any less able to grasp things than I.

You being atheist, can't even begin to understand what sin means to us on the same level.

If you determine that anyone is unable to understand something that you can, you are saying they are less intelligent than you. Literally. "Intelligence" comes from the Latin "Intelligere" and means "understanding". Their understanding is lesser than yours, thus their intelligence is lesser than yours...

However you'll note that I asked it as a question, so quite where you get this from:

I love how words get twisted in this thread.

escapes me. A simple yes/no would have sufficed.

I reiterate that I understand menstruation and it doesn't apply to me in a personal sense - so what gives 'sin' a quality that I can't possibly cope with?

To me, premarital six with no intention of being able to raise a child in that event, is a sin.

But then that also applies to those who cannot conceive. After all, miracles happen - I mean your entire belief system is based on miracles, and there's quite a major one involving pregnancy that kicked it all off...

So that then suggests that all premarital sex is sinful in your system... again.

To me divorce is a sin, pick your partner better or suck it up

I'm sure that comes as some comfort to people who are abused, beaten and raped by their spouses.

 

[CSLACR]

You being atheist, can't even begin to understand what sin means to us on the same level. Of course I know that you know what sin is I'm not calling anyone stupid, but quite simply it doesn't and won't ever mean the same things to you as it does to me or any other Christian.



And again... never once did I call out atheists as being unintelligent or any less able to grasp things than I. I love how words get twisted in this thread. You can refer to my response back to CSLACR to clear things up for you.

I was a christian for 13+ years, born and raised. Thank you.
Logic and lack of evidence eventually helped me see people use religion as a way to never really die, more than anything.
Just see @squadops sig.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

If you determine that anyone is unable to understand something that you can, you are saying they are less intelligent than you. Literally. "Intelligence" comes from the Latin "Intelligere" and means "understanding".

However you'll note that I asked it as a question, so quite where you get this from:

escapes me. A simple yes/no would have sufficed.

I reiterate that I understand menstruation and it doesn't apply to me in a personal sense - so what gives 'sin' a quality that I can't possibly cope with?

Wow if you deduced that I was calling atheists unintelligent from that then I don't really know what to say

Regardless, I was simply stating that the idea of sin does not apply to atheists the same way it does to theists. It can't possibly. You may know and understand what it is, but until you live it personally you can only know what it is from the outside. No different than your menstruation analogy. You may know and understand what it is, but you still don't understand it personally as it isn't in your life as a person... maybe it's around you, but it isn't in you.

 

[Scaff]

Just see @squadops sig.

Unless he's seriously got the wrong end of the stick its not about God, its about the blues. "As long as people have troubles the blues will never die" BB King

 

[CSLACR]

Wow if you deduced that I was calling atheists unintelligent from that then I don't really know what to say

Regardless, I was simply stating that the idea of sin does not apply to atheists the same way it does to theists. It can't possibly. You many know and understand what it is, but until you live it personally you can only know what it is from the outside. No different than your menstruation analogy. You may know and understand what it is, but you still don't understand it personally as it isn't in your life as a person... maybe it's around you, but it isn't in you.

No, you did the same thing to Famine as you did with me earlier on. He asked a question, you took offense and an implied answer.

We can't ask without asking. You can answer without getting defensive.

Also would like you to address the fact I was a christian from 5 to around 20, as I cannot grasp sin the way you can, or whatever.

 

[squadops]

But then that also applies to those who cannot conceive. After all, miracles happen - I mean your entire belief system is based on miracles, and there's quite a major one involving pregnancy that kicked it all off...

If it's God's will that is a whole different story, you are being facetious surely

So that then suggests that all premarital sex is sinful in your system... again.
I'm sure that comes as some comfort to people who are abused, beaten and raped by their spouses.

Didn't I say that I knew it was unrealistic already?

EDIT: Oh it is about the blues and the man's influence 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Unless he's seriously got the wrong end of the stick its not about God, its about the blues. "As long as people have troubles the blues will never die" BB King

Fair enough, I didn't click, I made an ass-umption.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

I was a christian for 13+ years, born and raised. Thank you.
Logic and lack of evidence eventually helped me see people use religion as a way to never really die, more than anything.
Just see @squadops sig.

I'm not surprised. It usually is people who once were Christians that turn Atheist. I know where you're coming from I considered myself Agnostic at one point. We just went different directions.

No, you did the same thing to Famine as you did with me earlier on. He asked a question, you took offense and an implied answer.

We can't ask without asking. You can answer without getting defensive.

And the same could be said about you guys as well. I came into this thread to discuss viewpoints knowing it was essentially going to be Atheist vs. Theist. That I am ok with. What I am not ok with is the slenderizing of God or anything that has to do with believing in something different than you guys. I'm not being over-defensive on anything past sticking up for what I believe or telling my side and I certainly am not putting down your all's beliefs.

 

[Famine]

Wow if you deduced that I was calling atheists unintelligent from that then I don't really know what to say

Actually I asked you. Look:

Do you see atheists as unintelligent and unable to grasp things that you know thanks to your faith?

This is a question. You've taken that as an accusation for some reason.

However, as I stated, 'intelligence' is literally 'understanding' and when you say that someone isn't capable of understanding something that you do you are saying that they are not as intelligent as you. If you don't wish to convey that message, perhaps choose your words better?

You many know and understand what it is, but until you live it personally you can only know what it is from the outside. No different than your menstruation analogy. You may know and understand what it is, but you still don't understand it personally as it isn't in your life as a person... maybe it's around you, but it isn't in you.

Right, so now atheists can understand sin, but don't live it. I'm not sure why that makes a difference, given that not believing in your God is a sin...

If it's God's will that is a whole different story, you are being facetious surely

Not at all. Rules don't make any sense if they don't make sense, and the rule "God says no bonking before getting married in case you have children except if you want them or can't have them unless you're gay because God doesn't like gay, or if you can't have them but do because God makes it happen" doesn't make any sense - which makes me wonder why you'd have it as a rule.

I certainly am not putting down your all's beliefs.

Atheists don't have any beliefs - at least when it comes to deities. Again, that's the literal meaning of the word.

 

[CSLACR]

I'm not surprised. It usually is people who once were Christians that turn Atheist. I know where you're coming from I considered myself Agnostic at one point. We just went different directions.



And the same could be said about you guys as well. I came into this thread to discuss viewpoints knowing it was essentially going to be Atheist vs. Theist. That I am ok with. What I am not ok with is the slenderizing of God or anything that has to do with believing in something different than you guys. I'm not being over-defensive on anything past sticking up for what I believe or telling my side and I certainly am not putting down your all's beliefs.

It usually is people who turn athiest were raised christian? You must think a lot of people are christians, dont you?

It usually is christians, that were raised christian. Fixed.

Twice now you have claimed your words were twisted, and both times it was somebody asking a question you weren't clear on.

 

[squadops]

Not at all. Rules don't make any sense if they don't make sense, and the rule "God says no bonking before getting married in case you have children except if you want them or can't have them unless you're gay because God doesn't like gay, or if you can't have them but do because God makes it happen" doesn't make any sense - which makes me wonder why you'd have it as a rule.
Atheists don't have any beliefs - at least when it comes to deities. Again, that's the literal meaning of the word.

Marriage is the joining of two before the eyes of the Lord, that is all. The rest you dragged out of me because you wanted an explanation. Those words were mine and not the Lord's.

 

[Danoff]

God says no bonking before getting married in case you have children except if you want them or can't have them unless you're gay because God doesn't like gay, or if you can't have them but do because God makes it happen

 

[PureAlpha1206]

However, as I stated, 'intelligence' is literally 'understanding' and when you say that someone isn't capable of understanding something that you do you are saying that they are not as intelligent as you. If you don't wish to convey that message, perhaps choose your words better?

Fair Enough on choosing my words better.

Right, so now atheists can understand sin, but don't live it.

And yes, as I replied to CSLACR when I was agreeing with his statement on sin not applying outside of religion. The concept is quite philosophical in nature, but sin technically can't exist without religion, therefore if you are atheist you may UNDERSTAND what it means, but no you don't live it... you can't possibly from an atheist standpoint

It usually is people who turn athiest were raised christian? You must think a lot of people are christians, dont you?

It usually is christians, that were raised christian. Fixed.

Twice now you have claimed your words were twisted, and both times it was somebody asking a question you weren't clear on.

I know a lot of people who were at one point in their lives Christian, either raised that way or by choice, and through critical thinking or events in their life they turned Atheist and there are many historical figures who represent this transition as well... So Yes my claim that many atheists are used to be Christians holds true.

Was that clear enough for you or do you need a more elaborate answer... or maybe a simpler one?

 

[Famine]

Marriage is the joining of two before the eyes of the Lord, that is all.

What, so now only religious Christian marriages are marriages? Jeepers I must tell the wife that our two children are sins.

The rest you dragged out of me because you wanted an explanation.

Gosh, just imagine wanting an explanation of something deposited without any explanation.

We've established, from your words, that:
Sex before marriage = sin
Except for people who can't conceive, unless they do because it's God's will.
Except if they actually want the child, whether married or not.

Seems to be more exceptions to the rule than there is actual rule. I didn't catch if you thought using a lot of contraception during premarital sex was sinful or not.

 

[squadops]

No, only from a biblical sense of course.

Those are simply my words, so what?

 

[Famine]

Again, that seems to be a reply to no-one... However, I'm going to take a punt that it was to me and try to interpret which bits you were referring to...

No, only from a biblical sense of course.

Right, so now it's:

Sex before marriage = sin
Except for people who can't conceive, unless they do because it's God's will.
Except if you use lots of contraception and don't conceive.
Except if they actually want the child, whether married or not.

So really you're only saying "It's a sin to conceive a child you don't want out of wedlock". Which makes me wonder why you're using the word "sin" at all...

Those are simply my words, so what?

So they seem to be pretty ill-considered and stand up to extremely little scrutiny even from your own views - which seem to be awfully familiar...

 

[Touring Mars]

To me, premarital sex with no intention of being able to raise a child in that event, is a sin.

What about marital sex with no intention of being able to raise a child... is that not a sin? Is it just sex or is it really procreation outwith marriage that is the problem?

As has been pointed out already, there's a whole lot of better things to be concerned about than if a couple of people have a piece of paper that somehow magically makes their sexual intercourse 'OK' as opposed to a loving couple who are not married whose sexual intercourse is 'not OK'.

Also, your point about divorce seems to be similarly outmoded/based on entirely the wrong foundations. To me it matters not a jot what someone's marital status is - if someone is a victim of violence at the hands of a spouse or partner, they have every right to seek separation... frankly I cannot fathom how anyone in this day and age can justify the exact opposite and, worse still, also cast judgement upon people unfortunate enough to have suffered such abuse as if somehow it's their fault and that they should therefore 'suck it up' - which is an absolutely appalling attitude. But, isn't it nice to know that abusers and the self-righteous can find comfort in the belief that they will be forgiven for their behavior...

 

[squadops]

Fine then, @Famine !!

Marriage from a biblical standpoint is simply the joining of two people before the eyes of the Lord.

You can scrutinize my words all you like, as I said, they are my words and not the lord's.

What about marital sex with no intention of being able to raise a child... is that not a sin? Is it just sex or is it really procreation outwith marriage that is the problem?

That is my problem with it at least 👍

Oh I've already said twice now, about the divorce, we agree.

 

[Famine]

Marriage from a biblical standpoint is simply the joining of two people before the eyes of the Lord.

Fortunately marriage predates the Bible.

You can scrutinize my words all you like, as I said, they are my words and not the lords.

That'll be why I'm addressing you and your words, not any deities.

What about marital sex with no intention of being able to raise a child... is that not a sin? Is it just sex or is it really procreation outwith marriage that is the problem?

As has been pointed out already, there's a whole lot of better things to be concerned about than if a couple of people have a piece of paper that somehow magically makes their sexual intercourse 'OK' as opposed to a loving couple who are not married whose sexual intercourse is 'not OK'.

Also, your point about divorce seems to be similarly outmoded/based on entirely the wrong foundations. To me it matters not a jot what someone's marital status is - if someone is a victim of violence at the hands of a spouse or partner, they have every right to seek separation... frankly I cannot fathom how anyone in this day and age can justify the exact opposite and, worse still, also cast judgement upon people unfortunate enough to have suffered such abuse as if somehow it's their fault and that they should therefore 'suck it up' - which is an absolutely appalling attitude. But, isn't it nice to know that abusers and the self-righteous can find comfort in the belief that they will be forgiven for their behavior...

All of this.

 

[squadops]

Yeah seconded @Touring Mars

 

[CSLACR]

Fair Enough on choosing my words better.



And yes, as I replied to CSLACR when I was agreeing with his statement on sin not applying outside of religion. The concept is quite philosophical in nature, but sin technically can't exist without religion, therefore if you are atheist you may UNDERSTAND what it means, but no you don't live it... you can't possibly from an atheist standpoint



I know a lot of people who were at one point in their lives Christian, either raised that way or by choice, and through critical thinking or events in their life they turned Atheist and there are many historical figures who represent this transition as well... So Yes my claim that many atheists are used to be Christians holds true.

Was that clear enough for you or do you need a more elaborate answer... or maybe a simpler one?

You started by saying I cannot possibly understand sinning because I am not a christian.
Once I stated I was a born and raised christian, you said "I knew it!!!"

Aaaand you're laughing at me?
At some point do yourself a favor, when your emotions settle. Reread this thread, and view the way you backpeddle and change your standpoint every time you get stuck. It will help you see the light.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

You started by saying I cannot possibly understand sinning because I am not a christian.
Once I stated I was a born and raised christian, you said "I knew it!!!"

Aaaand you're laughing at me?
At some point do yourself a favor, when your emotions settle. Reread this thread, and view the way you backpeddle and change your standpoint every time you get stuck. It will help you see the light.

Again as I said yesterday.. you specifically are taking only certain parts of what I am saying and turning it into what you want. Nobody can hold a decent debate with someone like that. And my emotions aren't in the way whatsover... Perhaps you should go back and read our discussions as well with an open mind and you'll see where you have quite clearly taken near everything I have said these past two days and twisted it and chosen what you want to see.

I'm interested to see where I have changed my viewpoint as well... of course that's something you're probably making up too. Seems to be your way of changing words.

oops... I laughed again sorry

 

[CSLACR]

Again as I said yesterday.. you specifically are taking only certain parts of what I am saying and turning it into what you want. Nobody can hold a decent debate with someone like that. And my emotions aren't in the way whatsover... Perhaps you should go back and read our discussions as well with an open mind and you'll see where you have quite clearly taken near everything I have said these past two days and twisted it and chosen what you want to see.

I'm interested to see where I have changed my viewpoint as well... of course that's something you're probably making up too. Seems to be your way of changing words.

oops... I laughed again sorry

Ok...

Christians create what sin is, yes as it has been passed down since the beginning for us... but these things aren't particularly approved of by society as a whole either. You don't have to be a Christian to still have morals/values.

Sins and morals are not the same thing. Just because some sins are also morals shared by society doesn't change that.
Now, if christians define sins, how do they define them? Different christians consider different actions sins, or not.
How do you, or I, as a prospective christian tell which set of rules is correct?

No. Morals are not specifically from the bible. Take any course on Ethics and you might know that.

Sin still applies to everyone, but you wouldn't really understand it unless you identify Christian. Especially with the attitude you hold. Even different religions than Christianity hold their own code of ethics or equivalents to what sin is, tho it may differ from country to country of course.

To put it simply, you don't need to be spiritual to have morals. Being Christian gives us another set of "rules" if you will of which to live by but it doesn't mean that being Atheist makes it acceptable to commit certain things such as sex out of marriage, thievery, battery, murder etc. I mean you wouldn't murder someone right? That's a moral placed on you from society... and apparently not the Bible or Christianity in your case

First assumption and claim at I can't understand, (later revises) sinning. Even with the updated clarification, still saying I don't know what its like, because I haven't or don't live it.
But I have.

You listed sex before marriage as immoral, you say being athiest doesn't make it acceptable.
Well yes, yes it does.
Morals and sins are not the same. Do you realize you haven't answered the question yet?
Why do christians make up sins that aren't in the Bible? No, it is not society.

I think, for myself, this is something very difficult to answer. Of course I believe, and we (Christians) are taught, that God is all knowing simply because of who he is. He is the creator of everything, and so he does in fact know our thoughts before we even think them... Simultaneously however, He also created free-will, for he created everything and this is why Eve ate from the tree in the story of Adam & Eve, for she had the capacity to make her own choices outside of God's will.

I think this almost becomes a question of believing in fate or not. Even going with the theory that everything has one ending (pre-decided by God), I think it could be argued that we can alter the outcome based on our decisions.

EDIT: I know this was kind of a roundabout answer but it's also a very difficult question.

You never finished this, besides saying you have faith even though it doesn't make sense. After basing multiple answers on "free-will", you acknowledge god cannot be omniscient if there is free will. God is omniscient in the Bible.
But then picking parts of the Bible is what got us here.

You being atheist, can't even begin to understand what sin means to us on the same level. Of course I know that you know what sin is I'm not calling anyone stupid, but quite simply it doesn't and won't ever mean the same things to you as it does to me or any other Christian.



And again... never once did I call out atheists as being unintelligent or any less able to grasp things than I. I love how words get twisted in this thread. You can refer to my response back to CSLACR to clear things up for you.

Second time, because you know I'm not christian don't know what it's like.

I'm not surprised. It usually is people who once were Christians that turn Atheist. I know where you're coming from I considered myself Agnostic at one point. We just went different directions.



And the same could be said about you guys as well. I came into this thread to discuss viewpoints knowing it was essentially going to be Atheist vs. Theist. That I am ok with. What I am not ok with is the slenderizing of God or anything that has to do with believing in something different than you guys. I'm not being over-defensive on anything past sticking up for what I believe or telling my side and I certainly am not putting down your all's beliefs.

But you're not surprised.

As for the rest here, the only attacks you recieved were in your own mind.

Fair Enough on choosing my words better.



And yes, as I replied to CSLACR when I was agreeing with his statement on sin not applying outside of religion. The concept is quite philosophical in nature, but sin technically can't exist without religion, therefore if you are atheist you may UNDERSTAND what it means, but no you don't live it... you can't possibly from an atheist standpoint



I know a lot of people who were at one point in their lives Christian, either raised that way or by choice, and through critical thinking or events in their life they turned Atheist and there are many historical figures who represent this transition as well... So Yes my claim that many atheists are used to be Christians holds true.

Was that clear enough for you or do you need a more elaborate answer... or maybe a simpler one?

Of course "many" christians turned athiest. That's what happens in a 7 billion head count world.
It's incredibly more common for christians to raise christians.
Now I'll grant you that athiests raised religious are more likely to vigilantly oppose religion, arguably from experience and knowledge of the religion.

 

[squadops]

@Famine I believe there is nothing stronger than what the bond of a solid family can create, you should know this as you have one.

Of course I am all for freedom, I have the freedom to practice my faith just as you have the freedom not to practice any faith. I'm failing to see(not from you) the anger some see with that. I will say again...

Conscience is the most sacred of all property

Some people should not ask if they do not want to know