Do you believe in God?

[Racin510s]

What are your thoughts on the Epic of Gilgamesh and the parrells from this much earlier (and non-Abrehamic) text to the Garden of Eden, Ecclesiastes and the story of Noah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

There are many parallels to Gilgamesh and other texts from different sources from that time period plus earlier and later that seem to relate to biblical accounts. There were many different influences of traditions and civilizations upon the Hebrew people and places in the bible. An example from Gilgamesh is that it is written in the bible that Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldeans. There are many texts from different civilizations concerning the flood of Noah. There many texts that were written that were excluded from the bible for example the Book of Enoch. During the BC's there were many different civilizations and numbers of different gods, worship of the sun, moon, stars, animals, trees etc. Because of this I understand questioning that the bible was written by divine inspiration. Also the Hebrew people were easily influenced by those civilizations especially from Egypt and Babylon.

Before I had an encounter with YHWH I was just as skeptical, asked many questions from supposed men of God that they could not answer. I grew up in the late '60s and early '70s as a musician, hippy, drug abusing, having sex with as many women as I could. I was a thief, mean and angry. I would just as soon stomp the 🤬 out of you if you got in my way or tried to witness to me about God. I didn't have an encounter with YHWH until I was 27. I had already been all over the country playing music, spent my required time in the Navy at the end of the Vietnam War so a bit of around the world as well. I doubted the truth that God and the bible were true.

I can now look back at those times and see the hand of YHWH in my life that I could not see before. I dabbled in different religions, was into yoga and transcendental meditation, did a boat load of LSD and other psychedelics. I even got into some witchcraft. I did many things that I am very ashamed of and took advantage of as many girls as I could. I was an I, I, me, me kind of person, I only would consider someone unless it benefitted me. I held a rifle on my old man because he hit my mother. I got into the martials arts for the sole purpose of being able to stomp my dad into the ground or anyone that looked at me wrong. Fortunately I never killed anyone but came very close to doing so. That all changed on a Thursday afternoon in January of 1983.

 

[Dotini]

Human-like footprints on Crete dated to 5.7 million years ago.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/s...t/news-story/2e60cbd7386573dd2a45c5cc9d79297d

Now we find fossilized teeth of great apes - in Europe! - dating back to 9.7 million years ago. Once again, science pushes back the potential origins of mankind, this time by several million years.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...germany-rhine-mainz-archaeology-a8010506.html

 

[TenEightyOne]

Once again, science pushes back the potential origins of mankind, this time by several million years.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...germany-rhine-mainz-archaeology-a8010506.html

No. There are many paleontologists who are certain that the molar cannot even be classified as hominoid, let alone hominid.

 

[HarVee]

"without him"

Is it really neccesary to make such a distinction? It would've been better for the poll just to say "of course". Allowing for more flexibility and encouraging others to partake in your poll.

OT: Yes. But not the traditional sense. There could be a higher power above us, but I'm in preference of thinking of it as this higher power "God" is in us and around us, manifesting itself in the constructs of our reality and transcending its existence in our collective conscious with the sole purpose of not helping us feel comfort in our uncertainty, but rather to help us live by letting us accept our demise, the fragility of our universe and flesh bodies, and the ultimate nothingness of our existence.

I'm essentially a pseudo-pantheist with a bit of a henotheism tendencies with a personal preference for the cult or "pantheon" of (ancient) Egypt, rather than the cult of Ibrahim.

 

[AdamA998]

Yes, I believe in the Abrahamic God.

 

[truthseeker]

yes I do xD

 

[ChingChong]

Maybe one day I will believe in him. I'm really not sure, but it would make sense.

 

[truthseeker]

i am gonna give you prove dude, just you wait -.-

 

[ChingChong]

i am gonna give you prove dude, just you wait -.-

Is this sarcasm?

 

[truthseeker]

Maybe one day I will believe in him. I'm really not sure, but it would make sense.

Is this sarcasm?

No?

 

[AdamA998]

@polizei

Those are problems that arise due to secular/liberal/modern philosophy of life and systems enabling them. By the way I'm using the term liberal if we're assuming liberal ideas brought about more personal freedoms. Not that past or present liberals are responsible for problems we face today. Conservatives are for personal freedoms too for the most part. But, they didn't innovate in that area much. Both contributed to modern lifestyle and enable it.

 

[Scaff]

i am gonna give you prove dude, just you wait -.-

You would be the first.

 

[AdamA998]

i am gonna give you prove dude, just you wait -.-

No proof needed, all you need is to observe the society, understand reasoning behind peoples behaviors and way of thinking, understand what values produce noble character and good balance in life, and you will recognize that God is real and what he says is the truth. No one will reach that stage if they refuse to recognize immoral things as immoral, or injustice as injustice. Many people dislike good, including many religious people. That doesn't help their argument against God's existence. Good people aren't appreciated, this is why the Prophet's were rejected and their opinion was not considered meaningful. So what you have is corrupt religious class which sees religion as a great addition to life which is about prosperity and maximum gain(wealth, women, power) and others who just won't appreciate God or good values that will make the world a great place to in.

And the result is a world where many people are wronged, people are not happy, people are trying to desperately fill in empty void within them by searching for affirmation and attention from people. And guess what, being good or pious will not get you any attention. Not in your place of worship or in society in general. So everyone is jumping ship and trying to be as cool as possible, have the best snapchat account, have as many sexual experiences as possible, enjoy life as much as possible and center life around prosperity. So the world is a-flood with fake people, unoriginal personalities, bullying, rude and cocky and arrogant behavior, oppression, etc.... People are praised for how successful they are socially and personally. So you can immediately tack off poor people, lonely people, socially inept people, people with mental illnesses, people with sense for morals, people with sense of justice, people that don't seek attention, and so on. They will be looked down upon and regarded as what a person should not turn out to be.

We are told that is a functional and developed, superior society. So people are afraid to speak their mind in fear of rejection by friends or society. Some are just helpless and struggling and don't have energy to change anything. And so these people didn't have enough, decided to exercise their 'superiority' over God as the smackdown on other humans didn't satisfy them enough. And you have seriously wicked people asserting that God isn't real. They are liars, I will never trade God for them. And the whole society can reject me. I know what good is. And it will replenish itself in the near future. And these wicked people will be the ones who will be in distress like they caused distress to the good and innocent of their time.

i am gonna give you prove dude, just you wait -.-

Another thing, if humans had proof of God by visually observing him or meeting him, they would be living in a constant state of shock and anxiety and life would not take a natural course. Pretty much a life against free will, as opposed to a life where we decide our beliefs and we will earn God's appreciation of us.

No one in their right mind would take God up on an offer to meet him. Most people are afraid of walking alone at night, let alone taking a journey into outer space, let alone meeting the creator of the Universe and anything else that exists.....

 

[Famine]

No proof needed

Convenient.

all you need is to...

... and interesting that you then follow it up with a methodology. Although without a way to falsify it and with no attempt to determine if it could be any other reason but your chosen reason, it's not a very good methodology.

No one will reach that stage if they refuse to recognize immoral things as immoral, or injustice as injustice.

And you have seriously wicked people asserting that God isn't real. They are liars, I will never trade God for them. And the whole society can reject me. I know what good is. And it will replenish itself in the near future.

And then we have the usual patter of only those who follow your specific deity can know what morality, justice and goodness are, and those who don't are wicked liars...

 

[Scaff]

and those who don't are wicked liars...

Damn, am I a wicked liar again!

 

[Joey D]

No proof needed, all you need is to observe the society, understand reasoning behind peoples behaviors and way of thinking, understand what values produce noble character and good balance in life, and you will recognize that God is real and what he says is the truth.

So my degree is in anthropology, which is the very study of society, people, their culture, etc. While I'm not nearly as versed in it as someone who works in the field, I feel like I have a decent enough understanding to say this isn't true. I have yet to meet an anthropologist who's anything other than Athiest or agnostic, and many of them that I've met even lived with several different cultures over their careers. A professor I had in college lived among a deeply Pentecostal group in South America, he also studied various religions over a lengthy career. He was a devout Atheist.

And you have seriously wicked people asserting that God isn't real. They are liars, I will never trade God for them. And the whole society can reject me. I know what good is. And it will replenish itself in the near future. And these wicked people will be the ones who will be in distress like they caused distress to the good and innocent of their time.

Most Atheists I know aren't even close to being a wicked person, nor are they liars. They're average people who live their lives and still respect their fellow man because they aren't jackasses.

On the other hand, some of the most hateful people I've come across are deeply religious.

Sure there are good and bad on both side, but that's human nature. It has nothing to do with a supernatural belief system, but rather whether or not the person is a jerk.

No one in their right mind would take God up on an offer to meet him.

I am totally in my right mind and would jump at the chance to meet a supernatural being. Humanity has so many questions that throwing away an opportunity to ask a creator those questions is doing a disservice to all of us.

 

[AdamA998]

... and interesting that you then follow it up with a methodology. Although without a way to falsify it and with no attempt to determine if it could be any other reason but your chosen reason, it's not a very good methodology.

Why so? We are capable of reasoning, we can observe the society, retain history and live through experiences and draw conclusions upon them. I believe(not blindly) the Abrahamic God when he says his model is the best model to follow. I see plenty of injustice and unnatural behavior in this world. Of which the majority of humans are tolerant of at this day and age. The majority have drawn conclusions that this is the most efficient and just we can get, and that we should be content and indifferent to injustice or immorality or flawed philosophies. There is no way anyone can argue that this model is the truth unless they forfeit many aspects of their human nature. Meanwhile if you observe the character of the Prophet's and their personalities, you would recognize nothing but their sense of God and justice inspires them. People don't know how Prophet's were or lived, the religious clergy gives an inaccurate presentation. If they did, they would cry over them and develop great perseverance and firm belief in God. You yourself want God to be real, you are not arguing because you want to change perspective of religious folk, at least that's not my impression. You are in a search of truth, but humanity has let you down. And you're not gonna change your mind until someone of exemplary character like that of the Prophet's arises.

And then we have the usual patter of only those who follow your specific deity can know what morality, justice and goodness are, and those who don't are wicked liars...

But I didn't say that, that's why I said many people who follow my deity do not what morality, justice and goodness are. Those hypocrites are among the people that have gone astray. So I believe in organized religion but I don't involve myself with activities of those who represent organized religion. Because my intentions are genuine, I want a world that is good. I want to know more about God, I want him to communicate with us. But, I recognize an array of flaws within people and organized religion establishment that will not allow that to happen anytime soon.

I can assure you Progressivism will not make you happy. I know many people like us lean to that thought process, and may find some pros in Progressivism and believe it will make the world better. The only thing that will solve genuine grievances and make us spiritually content is following the God of Abraham like the Prophet's did. We are not doing that anywhere in the world, including Muslim world(which people think is representation of what religious 'goodness' will entail but it is not either at this stage).

 

[Scaff]

Why so? We are capable of reasoning, we can observe the society, retain history and live through experiences and draw conclusions upon them. I believe(not blindly) the Abrahamic God when he says his model is the best model to follow.

All of it?

I have tattoo's - am I damned?

I'm wearing mixed fibres, am I damned.

My children have disrespected me many times, how should I kill them?

I see plenty of injustice and unnatural behavior in this world. Of which the majority of humans are tolerant of at this day and age.

Such as?

Meanwhile if you observe the character of the Prophet's and their personalities, you would recognize nothing but their sense of God and justice inspires them.

Even the parts borrowed from other much older faiths?

People don't know how Prophet's were or lived, the religious clergy gives an inaccurate presentation. If they did, they would cry over them and develop great perseverance and firm belief in God. You yourself want God to be real, you are not arguing because you want to change perspective of religious folk, at least that's not my impression. You are in a search of truth, but humanity has let you down. And you're not gonna change your mind until someone of exemplary character like that of the Prophet's arises.

You should give us the accurate presentation then.

I can assure you Progressivism will not make you happy.

That's incredibly presumptive, I'm going to have to ask you to provide some citations for this.

I know many people like us lean to that thought process, and may find some pros in Progressivism and believe it will make the world better. The only thing that will solve genuine grievances and make us spiritually content is following the God of Abraham like the Prophet's did. We are not doing that anywhere in the world, including Muslim world(which people think is representation of what religious 'goodness' will entail but it is not either at this stage).

Why is your God right and all of the other ones wrong?

 

[AdamA998]

So my degree is in anthropology, which is the very study of society, people, their culture, etc. While I'm not nearly as versed in it as someone who works in the field, I feel like I have a decent enough understanding to say this isn't true. I have yet to meet an anthropologist who's anything other than Athiest or agnostic, and many of them that I've met even lived with several different cultures over their careers. A professor I had in college lived among a deeply Pentecostal group in South America, he also studied various religions over a lengthy career. He was a devout Atheist.

Most Atheists I know aren't even close to being a wicked person, nor are they liars. They're average people who live their lives and still respect their fellow man because they aren't jackasses.

On the other hand, some of the most hateful people I've come across are deeply religious.

Sure there are good and bad on both side, but that's human nature. It has nothing to do with a supernatural belief system, but rather whether or not the person is a jerk.

I do not divide people on basis of belief or disbelief. Professed beliefs or associations mean nothing to me. I observe peoples values and character. An certain atheist to me could be someone who has superior character and goodness in him/her than someone among my religion that receives praise from the public. I will never allow myself to commit injustice, I have a deep thought process and sophisticated way of determining who espouses good and who doesn't. And if we assumed humans number 1,000 peoples. It would like 500 people of mixed beliefs or unsure beliefs or normal religious beliefs that have good intentions, good character, humility, sense of justice, etc... as opposed to 500 people who are the opposite. I hold no bias to people of my faith. In my personal life I am let down by them before others. And I stay away from organized religion. Meaning my local place of worship or local religious community. Because if that place of worship is intended to inspire and change people to follow good, and I observe that the people still commit wrongdoings(to other people or to themselves), then I don't see a point in that whole institution. It provides sense of community, social gathering, and spiritual stability for certain people, but I'm in search for something much greater than that.

I am totally in my right mind and would jump at the chance to meet a supernatural being. Humanity has so many questions that throwing away an opportunity to ask a creator those questions is doing a disservice to all of us.

Well I advise you to think deeply about that, I would be fearful and unless he guaranteed me ability to meet him and feel secure and no fear, I wouldn't be in a rush. I am also shy of God and feel like he knows better than us as to when we he should present himself to us. Which I believe will be on the Day of Judgement.

Curious, though, what kind of questions do you have?

 

[AdamA998]

All of it?

I have tattoo's - am I damned?

I'm wearing mixed fibres, am I damned.

My children have disrespected me many times, how should I kill them?

Not sure what you're trying to get out of me, do you want me to judge you or advise you? I don't judge individual peoples, I only make generalizations. And I can advise if you're looking for advice.

Such as?

Majority of injustice can be seen in normal social setting. Injustice can range from anything to unjust killing of others to a friend talking behind another friends back and slandering them unjustly. These small things are more important to me than the clear injustices which people today consider a lot more grave and thus lessened importance of smaller ones that if prevail on a large scale, will cause massive moral degradation and contribute to what kind of views people form and those views make up the norms in our world today.

Even the parts borrowed from other much older faiths?

What do you mean?

You should give us the accurate presentation then.

Sure, which Prophet's character and life story do you want me to go over?

Why is your God right and all of the other ones wrong?

There's only one God, he's not an idol nor a man nor an object in space. I am arguing for God(the one that is most plausible to most people) and his model, not for my specific religion. Nevertheless I do believe my religion is the truth.

 

[Joey D]

I do not divide people on basis of belief or disbelief.

But you wrote that people who do not believe in God are wicked and are liars. That seems like a division based on belief or non-belief to me.

Well I advise you to think deeply about that, I would be fearful and unless he guaranteed me ability to meet him and feel secure and no fear, I wouldn't be in a rush. I am also shy of God and feel like he knows better than us as to when we he should present himself to us. Which I believe will be on the Day of Judgement.

Curious, though, what kind of questions do you have?

I have thought about it, knowing the answer to some of the more perplexing things in the universe would be something I want to know...even if I couldn't grasp it. I should also probably preface this with the statement that I'm not an Athiest and do personally believe in a supernatural power.

But for starters, questions like:
- Who made you (god) and where did you begin?
- How big is the universe? Are there more than one?
- Life outside of Earth?
- Where did humans come from? What is our purpose?

That's just the surface too, there would be millions of questions regarding physics, chemistry, biology, etc.

What do you mean?

Christianity has many elements based on older religions that date back much further than the birth of Jesus. Even many of the stories in the Bible follow the concept laid out by stories from other religions and cultures. One main one being Noah's Ark and the Flood. Jesus could also be entirely fictional since his story follows that of an Egyptian god.

 

[ryzno]

Here we go again...

No one in their right mind would take God up on an offer to meet him.

Why? Of all the people in history he'd be the most epic one to meet!

Most people are afraid of walking alone at night,

Really? Any proof? I'll admit some people are afraid to walk at night but most is an overstatement.

let alone taking a journey into outer space,

I'd love to explore space!

let alone meeting the creator of the Universe and anything else that exists...

Again proof needed. Again I'd be stoked to meet him.

Not everyone lives in fear...

 

[Scaff]

Not sure what you're trying to get out of me, do you want me to judge you or advise you? I don't judge individual peoples, I only make generalizations. And I can advise if you're looking for advice.

You stated that God's model is the best one to follow. These are all from his model, do you accept them as part of the best model to follow, or do you cherry pick?

Majority of injustice can be seen in normal social setting. Injustice can range from anything to unjust killing of others to a friend talking behind another friends back and slandering them unjustly. These small things are more important to me than the clear injustices which people today consider a lot more grave and thus lessened importance of smaller ones that if prevail on a large scale, will cause massive moral degradation and contribute to what kind of views people form and those views make up the norms in our world today.

Ok, and how do you know that most are tolerant of these things?

What do you mean?

The Abrehamic texts are a plagiarism of older works from older faiths.

Sure, which Prophet's character and life story do you want me to go over?

I don't mind, dealers choice, you go for it.

There's only one God, he's not an idol nor a man nor an object in space.

Going to have to ask you for some proof of that factual statement.

I am arguing for God(the one that is most plausible to most people) and his model, not for my specific religion. Nevertheless I do believe my religion is the truth.

Your arguing for his model but seem to not know pasts of it, its your religion but you don;t know that much of its borrowed from other faiths, you claim that its the most plausible but offer nothing to support that.

It all sounds a bit like you don't know it quite as well as you are making out.

 

[AdamA998]

But you wrote that people who do not believe in God are wicked and are liars. That seems like a division based on belief or non-belief to me.

I wrote two paragraphs prior to that describing the qualities of such 'wicked' people. It isn't based on professed belief. It's larger than that.

I have thought about it, knowing the answer to some of the more perplexing things in the universe would be something I want to know...even if I couldn't grasp it. I should also probably preface this with the statement that I'm not an Athiest and do personally believe in a supernatural power.

But for starters, questions like:
- Who made you (god) and where did you begin?
- How big is the universe? Are there more than one?
- Life outside of Earth?
- Where did humans come from? What is our purpose?

That's just the surface too, there would be millions of questions regarding physics, chemistry, biology, etc.

Besides the first, those are common questions many deep thinking people have, including the Prophet's before their prophethood. God did explain to us the purpose of life very briefly(in my faith), so there is an answer to that. It might not make sense to some people or seem to simple of an explanation. So maybe you are having trouble making sense of the professed purpose as opposed to the purpose itself?

Christianity has many elements based on older religions that date back much further than the birth of Jesus. Even many of the stories in the Bible follow the concept laid out by stories from other religions and cultures. One main one being Noah's Ark and the Flood. Jesus could also be entirely fictional since his story follows that of an Egyptian god.

I am aware of that, I am not a Christian by the way. I definitely believe Jesus is a real historical figure. So as far as certain concepts in Christianity goes, I am not too familiar with them.

 

[UKMikey]

Not everyone lives in fear...

I agree and feel genuinely sad for anyone whose religious or cultural upbringing causes them to fear the pursuit of knowledge.

 

[AdamA998]

Here we go again...


Why? Of all the people in history he'd be the most epic one to meet!

Really? Any proof? I'll admit some people are afraid to walk at night but most is an overstatement.

I'd love to explore space!

Again proof needed. Again I'd be stoked to meet him.

Not everyone lives in fear...

Let's just say you met God, then what? Since we are gonna do this circular logic type of thing ....

You stated that God's model is the best one to follow. These are all from his model, do you accept them as part of the best model to follow, or do you cherry pick?

Please show me text of my religion suggesting you should kill your child if he disrespects you? I'm Muslim so the only thing I can confirm is tattoo's are not permitted.

Ok, and how do you know that most are tolerant of these things?

Because it is way too prevalent.

I don't mind, dealers choice, you go for it.

Well I have a different perspective(as opposed to mainstream Muslim beliefs on him) on Prophet Mohammed, and if you'd like I could share that. I am most familiar with him.

Going to have to ask you for some proof of that factual statement.


Your arguing for his model but seem to not know pasts of it, its your religion but you don;t know that much of its borrowed from other faiths, you claim that its the most plausible but offer nothing to support that.

It all sounds a bit like you don't know it quite as well as you are making out.

I think we can all agree that if people believed in a God, it is referring to a supernatural higher being that is not an idol or man or the Sun or anything else like that.

I agree and feel genuinely sad for anyone whose religious or cultural upbringing causes them to fear the pursuit of knowledge.

I don't see how religious upbringing causes one to fear the pursuit of knowledge. It doesn't, some people are not comfortable doing certain things that others are. And I'm not referring to myself personally when it comes to walking at night or other things. I would be anxious if a supernatural being told me I am due to meet him within a set amount of time.

 

[Scaff]

Please show me text of my religion suggesting you should kill your child if he disrespects you? I'm Muslim so the only thing I can confirm is tattoo's are not permitted.

You stated Aberhamic texts, so Leviticus 20:9
"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."

Which is the same source for the the ban on Tattoos (Leviticus 19:28)

Because it is way too prevalent.

That's not proof of wide spread acceptance, its not even proof that its way too prevalent.

Well I have a different perspective(as opposed to mainstream Muslim beliefs on him) on Prophet Mohammed, and if you'd like I could share that. I am most familiar with him.

OK

I think we can all agree that if people believed in a God, it is referring to a supernatural higher being that is not an idol or man or the Sun or anything else like that.

That doesn't actually answer any of my questions at all.

Nor can you say that we all agree on the point you have just made.

I hold no belief in any form of god, gods or deity. The lack of evidence for all of them is equally (and amount to zero).

 

[AdamA998]

You stated Aberhamic texts, so Leviticus 20:9
"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."

Which is the same source for the the ban on Tattoos (Leviticus 19:28)

I told you I'm not Christian, and Muslims don't regard previous texts as entirely authentic. Nevertheless, what are you trying to suggest? That children being well mannered to parents is not achievable or shouldn't be the norm? If the parents are good, the good intention of the children would be to be respectful and well mannered to them. I would promote a good state of affairs within a family as opposed to enabling the opposite.

That's not proof of wide spread acceptance, its not even proof that its way too prevalent.

You can keep telling yourself that.

OK

That's why I didn't go into detail, because no one is interested in his character or biblical Prophet's character.

That doesn't actually answer anyy of my questions at all.

Well good for you, I was as clear and concise as I could be. You aren't looking for answer, that I can tell.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I told you I'm not Christian, and Muslims don't regard previous texts as entirely authentic.

How do you choose which bits are right?

 

[UKMikey]

I told you I'm not Christian, and Muslims don't regard previous texts as entirely authentic.

Previous to what? Is there some kind of cutoff point before which texts can be disregarded and after which texts are completely believable? If so, how can we still be talking about the God of Abraham who is supposed to be contemporaneous with those earlier texts?

[EDIT] Dammit @TenEightyOne, tree'd again