Do you believe in God?

[AdamA998]

How do you choose which bits are right?

Me, personally? For the larger context, I don't. I take Mohammed's word for it because I believe he was in direct guidance by God, and he told us to use the new text for reference. A large part of Islamic beliefs are not from the text and behaviors/norms that came directly from Mohammed himself that were recorded orally. Killing your child over cursing is not the right thing to do, we have an internal moral compass. I would follow my moral compass in that case. And I think that biblical verse is referring to 'curse' as in cursing the God of one's parents, which was considered in a grave sin back then I'm sure. Although I don't believe that approach was carried out, honestly.

Anyway ... this discussion kind of went all over the place. I go on rants sometimes and I'm in a pursuit of God like some other people here. And I want answers too. I will continue being patient, however. And I really don't like making this about Islam, and more so about 'goodness' and 'justice' which I believe anyone can recognize, but near impossible to impose in the modern day. So whatever you or I personally suffer from that we believe we shouldn't have or should not suffer from, we will continue to and have to deal with it, because there is no exemplary character to provide initiation and guidance for us.

 

[ryzno]

Let's just say you met God, then what? Since we are gonna do this circular logic type of thing ...

Who knows, I'm sure it would cause a world uproar if we found out there was a God and who's God was the real God.

Me personally, I'd either re-read the Bible and figure out if I still want to worship Jesus again.
Or read whatever book corresponds to the real God and figure out if I want to worship them.
But even you don't believe all the words of your Gods book.
How can you have faith in something you don't believe 100%?
How can you say one mans words are true and another fake, in the same book.

Religion is a means to control the masses with fear.
Some people who say "I shall fear no evil", are some of the first people to run when crap hits the fan and go to pray for help.
Others get the job done...

I'm Atheist if you care.

 

[Scaff]

I told you I'm not Christian, and Muslims don't regard previous texts as entirely authentic. Nevertheless, what are you trying to suggest? That children being well mannered to parents is not achievable or shouldn't be the norm? If the parents are good, the good intention of the children would be to be respectful and well mannered to them. I would promote a good state of affairs within a family as opposed to enabling the opposite.

I don't make assumptions in regard to what parts of text people pick, hence the reason for my question.

A question you will recall was asked at a point you were simply referring to Aberhamic faith, I've cited Aberhamic texts.

It is however quite interesting that the part you focus on is in regard to is children behaving and not the beating them to death part!

As a parent to three (now adult) children I can assure you that if you need fear of death to get your kids in line, then you are doing it very, very wrong.

You can keep telling yourself that.

Not how proof works.

You make a claim then you are expected to support that claim.

That's why I didn't go into detail, because no one is interested in his character or biblical Prophet's character.

At what point did I say anything even remotely close to that?

You asked if the one you want to use was acceptable, I said OK. As such your reply makes no sense at all and comes across as being very defensive.

Well good for you, I was as clear and concise as I could be. You aren't looking for answer, that I can tell.

And once again I get attitude from a perfectly reasonable post.

Ask yourself this, given that I have been polite and resonable in all my posts to you, and you are the one being defensive, thinking the worst of others, assuming you know what I am thinking and how I am going to react. Who exactly is it that has the poor morale outlook here? The theist or the atheist?

Abrehamic texts even have a saying for this kind of attitude:

Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

 

[Joey D]

I wrote two paragraphs prior to that describing the qualities of such 'wicked' people. It isn't based on professed belief. It's larger than that.

Which I read. However, it definitely reads as you're saying people who are Atheists are wicked people and liars.

Besides the first, those are common questions many deep thinking people have, including the Prophet's before their prophethood. God did explain to us the purpose of life very briefly(in my faith), so there is an answer to that. It might not make sense to some people or seem to simple of an explanation. So maybe you are having trouble making sense of the professed purpose as opposed to the purpose itself?

I don't believe in prophets. Most of the time they were people who were slightly off balance and could get a group of people to follow them because of an ideal.

But I am curious, what is the meaning of life according to your faith?

I am aware of that, I am not a Christian by the way. I definitely believe Jesus is a real historical figure. So as far as certain concepts in Christianity goes, I am not too familiar with them.

I didn't say you were a Christian, I was using it as an example. But Christianity is an Abrahamic faith and many of the stories across the three faiths that follow it share many similarities. I'm guessing you're a Muslim based on your posts, so the Quran also contains many stories that are lifted from other, old faiths. Especially since it was written in the 7th century.

 

[AdamA998]

Who knows, I'm sure it would cause a world uproar if we found out there was a God and who's God was the real God.

Me personally, I'd either re-read the Bible and figure out if I still want to worship Jesus again.
Or read whatever book corresponds to the real God and figure out if I want to worship them.
But even you don't believe all the words of your Gods book.
How can you have faith in something you don't believe 100%?
How can you say one mans words are true and another fake, in the same book.

Religion is a means to control the masses with fear.
Some people who say "I shall fear no evil", are some of the first people to run when crap hits the fan and go to pray for help.
Others get the job done...

I'm Atheist if you care.

I believe in my religion, as far as the biblical scripture goes, our stories share different details. For example the story of Moses is quite different in Islam, or that of other Prophet's or that of Solomon for example. And I don't know if we believe in all the saints, but I know we do believe in some of the saints with Jesus and we believe they're rightly guided people. Our religion is mostly centered around 5 pillars for the basics, but as far judicial punishments and way of life, much of it comes from Mohammed himself. Like how to get married, or how to punish adulterers or ways to make extra prayers and things like that. So we don't really get many rulings from scripture itself and more from the Shariah or Sunnah.

Of course religion can be employed as a tool, but you're giving too much credit to the 'rulers' or whomever you regard using it to control the masses. The masses also play along because they don't understand what religion is supposed to produce in the society. And instead it's used a benefit for common people too. You rarely see a common person seek religion to understand God or put themselves through suffering. Even just standing up for the oppressed is enough cause for suffering for an individual. Rather we see many people seeking religion in times of need or for sense of community or because it is a habit in their community to be religious as well and this makes for acceptance. Am I correct?

I don't make assumptions in regard to what parts of text people pick, hence the reason for my question.

A question you will recall was asked at a point you were simply referring to Aberhamic faith, I've cited Aberhamic texts.

It is however quite interesting that the part you focus on is in regard to is children behaving and not the beating them to death part!

As a parent to three (now adult) children I can assure you that if you need fear of death to get your kids in line, then you are doing it very, very wrong.

Well you can't just ignore what I keep telling you. Muslims are supposed to get rulings or advice on matters in life not from text but mostly the Shariah. So we don't use the Bible or Torah or even much of the Quran in that case. I don't have children and what makes you think I will raise them in a certain way?

Not how proof works.

You make a claim then you are expected to support that claim.

You can't accurately collect data on something like that nor is it subject of interest for scientists. You as a person can observe things. I can go to any friend group anywhere and eventually catch people talking behind each other's back. I'm sure every single person has at least one experience in their lifetime. If you want a study of the supposed logic behind gossip, here you go:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...king-sets-apart-species-make-live-longer.html

At what point did I say anything even remotely close to that?

You asked if the one you want to use was acceptable, I said OK. As such your reply makes no sense at all and comes across as being very defensive.

I'm not defensive like other Muslims and respect everyones opinions on Mohammed. It doesn't bother me that people dislike him. All I was saying that there is little to no interest in a character like that of the Prophet's. And what I was going to say was that I think his life growing up was not fine and dandy or perfect like many Muslim scholars preach. I believe he had a sense of good that caused him to struggle mentally in society and made him what he was before God reached out to him.

And once again I get attitude from a perfectly reasonable post.

Ask yourself this, given that I have been polite and resonable in all my posts to you, and you are the one being defensive, thinking the worst of others, assuming you know what I am thinking and how I am going to react. Who exactly is it that has the poor morale outlook here? The theist or the atheist?

It doesn't work that way, I told you that the God most refer to or are in search for is a being or energy as some people outside of our realm or the God considered to be the creator. I'm sure those in debate religion sites are debating over that kind of God and not the Sun or a sculpture on earth. So if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, then you're not looking for my perspective and giving me no reason to go on with the discussion.

 

[AdamA998]

Which I read. However, it definitely reads as you're saying people who are Atheists are wicked people and liars.

Many of those pushing or justifying immorality and injustice identify with a religion, often an Abrahamic faith. I'm referring to that collective group of people of mixed faiths or no faith. If it came out another way than I apologize, but that is what I'm intending to get across.

I don't believe in prophets. Most of the time they were people who were slightly off balance and could get a group of people to follow them because of an ideal.

That's fine.

But I am curious, what is the meaning of life according to your faith?

In the Quran it says we were created to worship God. Some say it is to be his representatives on earth. Obviously that answer isn't sufficient enough, and people will wonder but why does he need people if he is sufficient alone. And that is up to you to ponder upon. For me personally, I try to observe what God says and observe the people he likes the most. He regards the Prophet's as most pious. And he tests them in harsher ways. And I notice a pattern that many of the Prophet's practiced seclusion or were lonely. And my assumption is that is something God went through(doesn't affect him in ways it affect us). So he puts them through that as that is his means of developing them. Through inner reflection, extensive thoughts, curiosities, etc....

I didn't say you were a Christian, I was using it as an example. But Christianity is an Abrahamic faith and many of the stories across the three faiths that follow it share many similarities. I'm guessing you're a Muslim based on your posts, so the Quran also contains many stories that are lifted from other, old faiths. Especially since it was written in the 7th century.

Indeed it does, the details are slightly different, however. Like Solomon for example, we believe he had many less wives than what is mentioned in scripture. And we don't believe Moses ordered execution of boys. Our story on Isaac and Ishmael differs as well.

 

[Scaff]

I believe in my religion, as far as the biblical scripture goes, our stories share different details. For example the story of Moses is quite different in Islam, or that of other Prophet's or that of Solomon for example. And I don't know if we believe in all the saints, but I know we do believe in some of the saints with Jesus and we believe they're rightly guided people. Our religion is mostly centered around 5 pillars for the basics, but as far judicial punishments and way of life, much of it comes from Mohammed himself. Like how to get married, or how to punish adulterers or ways to make extra prayers and things like that. So we don't really get many rulings from scripture itself and more from the Shariah or Sunnah.

Of course religion can be employed as a tool, but you're giving too much credit to the 'rulers' or whomever you regard using it to control the masses. The masses also play along because they don't understand what religion is supposed to produce in the society. And instead it's used a benefit for common people too. You rarely see a common person seek religion to understand God or put themselves through suffering. Even just standing up for the oppressed is enough cause for suffering for an individual. Rather we see many people seeking religion in times of need or for sense of community or because it is a habit in their community to be religious as well and this makes for acceptance. Am I correct?

I'm not giving credit to anyone, I actually think that most religious people are religious simply out of cultural habit.

Well you can't just ignore what I keep telling you. Muslims are supposed to get rulings or advice on matters in life not from text but mostly the Shariah. So we don't use the Bible or Torah or even much of the Quran in that case.

I'm not ignoring you or what your saying. I'm asking questions based around my common understanding of the texts.

I don't have children and what makes you think I will raise them in a certain way?

I didn't say anything about how you would raise them, I simply found it interesting which part you focused on and wondered why.

You can't accurately collect data on something like that nor is it subject of interest for scientists. You as a person can observe things. I can go to any friend group anywhere and eventually catch people talking behind each other's back. I'm sure every single person has at least one experience in their lifetime.

That doesn't mean that everyone does it or that it has widespread acceptance in society. However in the grand scheme of things to worry about in terms of the moral fibre of a society I think its quite low on the list of things that concern me.

If you want a study of the supposed logic behind gossip, here you go:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...king-sets-apart-species-make-live-longer.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...king-sets-apart-species-make-live-longer.html
I'm with Wikipedia in treating the Daily Mail as an untrustworthy source.

I'm not defensive like other Muslims and respect everyones opinions on Mohammed. It doesn't bother me that people dislike him. All I was saying that there is little to no interest in a character like that of the Prophet's. And what I was going to say was that I think his life growing up was not fine and dandy or perfect like many Muslim scholars preach. I believe he had a sense of good that caused him to struggle mentally in society and made him what he was before God reached out to him.

What makes you think I dislike him?

It doesn't work that way, I told you that the God most refer to or are in search for is a being or energy as some people outside of our realm or the God considered to be the creator. I'm sure those in debate religion sites are debating over that kind of God and not the Sun or a sculpture on earth. So if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, then you're not looking for my perspective and giving me no reason to go on with the discussion.

I'm not arguming for the sake of arguing.

I'm simply saying that I don;t hold to any of those beliefs or favour one over the other. I have an absence of belief in any god, gods or form of deity.

The form god/gods are said to take or not doesn't change or influence that in any way at all; that's my perspective and if that offends you to the degree that you feel I am being disrespectful then I can do nothing about that, but be assured that is a presumption you are making nor one I am making.

 

[AdamA998]

@Scaff

Not offended by you at all, you're just a waste of my energy and time at this point. You threw a certain biblical verse at me that had no relevance to the discussion and didn't establish any argument or explain the reasoning behind that. If you have your opinions mention them without quoting me. If you are disputing something I said, then be straightforward and present your case in dispute as well your argument. Not sure if you're looking for cookie points from people or what it is, but I've seen this before and know better than to continue with it.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff

Not offended by you at all, you're just a waste of my energy and time at this point. You threw a certain biblical verse at me that had no relevance to the discussion and didn't establish any argument or explain the reasoning behind that. If you have your opinions mention them without quoting me. If you are disputing something I said, then be straightforward and present your case in dispute as well your argument. Not sure if you're looking for cookie points from people or what it is, but I've seen this before and know better than to continue with it.

An Abrehamic verse that you have just re-enforced to a very large degree.

It's seems you don't want to discuss but rather minister and convert, given the totally defensive nature you have turned to.

Please don't claim to not be offended, when you quite clearly are by even the most basic level of discussion.

 

[Danoff]

Let's just say you met God, then what?

I always enjoy this thought experiment. Naturally, the question is how... what are the circumstances of meeting "God".

- If it was a powerful feeling while I was looking at a sunset or something, I'd say it's my own emotional reaction to beauty.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice, I'd think I was probably hallucinating and get an MRI or something.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice and there was someone else with me witnessing it, I'd report it and see if we could get a chemical analysis of the air in the area because obviously there is a contaminant.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice and I could see it and hear it on a video camera from wherever I stood and share it with others who could see it and could go visit it. I'd think it was the greatest prank ever.
- If I giant hand came out of the sky and delivered someone claiming to be Jesus (or whomever), and Jesus started producing wine, fish, walking on water, and raising himself from the dead, and everyone on earth could see it and no one could explain it, I'd think we were being visited by powerful aliens that wanted us to worship them and were using one of our ancient texts to make that easier.
- If a giant hand came out of the sky and lifted me up to heaven, and i was taken back in time to see the creation of the universe, and God himself conveyed to me a sense of his omnipotence and eternal presence, and convinced me that he had individually created the universe, including Earth and all of the people in it, and showed me hell, and attested that everything in the bible is true and correct. I'd be scared out of my mind because that guy is an unpredictable bloodthirsty narcissistic psychopath and we are his eternal playthings.

 

[Joey D]

- If I giant hand came out of the sky and delivered someone claiming to be Jesus (or whomever), and Jesus started producing wine, fish, walking on water, and raising himself from the dead, and everyone on earth could see it and no one could explain it, I'd think we were being visited by powerful aliens that wanted us to worship them and were using one of our ancient texts to make that easier.

I still think this is the best explanation for gods in ancient times. Aliens visited Earth, people were confused, they wrote about it, and thus a religion was born.

Still more probable than a person being delivered via a supernatural being.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Aliens visited Earth, people were confused, they wrote about it, and thus a religion was born.

Still more probable than a person being delivered via a supernatural being.

The second is true but it doesn't make the first any more likely.

I think human nature explains a lot of it... "how does that work?". Clearly some entity or being is wilfully making things happen. Where does the sun go at night, who puts the moon there instead? Why is the water so angry? Why doesn't this land let me grow food? Much of what we know about early religion pictures it as a method for answering those basic questions with an ingenuity that marks us out as a species.

 

[AdamA998]

An Abrehamic verse that you have just re-enforced to a very large degree.

No I didn't, I don't recognize authenticity of that text in order to 'reinforce' it. That post you are referring to was attention to detail on my part. There was no 'reinforcing' going on.

It's seems you don't want to discuss but rather minister and convert, given the totally defensive nature you have turned to.

You are making an assumption and that is the only truth here. You don't know much about me or my perspective on matters. I have no interest in converting anyone and would respectfully reject anyones request. If I had any clout or influence among Muslim people, my priority would be to focus on the people and their values. I was also mentioning 'Abrahamic God' a lot because I did not want it to be known that I'm Muslim and was forced to bring the up when it was relevant to the discussion I had with another member.

Please don't claim to not be offended, when you quite clearly are by even the most basic level of discussion.

Not offended, I made myself clear. You should refrain from making assumptions or try attributing said things to me. And if you want to have a discussion then we can do so by agreeing to disagreeing and it ends there. Otherwise we will keep going in circles.

 

[AdamA998]

I always enjoy this thought experiment. Naturally, the question is how... what are the circumstances of meeting "God".

- If it was a powerful feeling while I was looking at a sunset or something, I'd say it's my own emotional reaction to beauty.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice, I'd think I was probably hallucinating and get an MRI or something.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice and there was someone else with me witnessing it, I'd report it and see if we could get a chemical analysis of the air in the area because obviously there is a contaminant.
- If it was a burning bush with a voice and I could see it and hear it on a video camera from wherever I stood and share it with others who could see it and could go visit it. I'd think it was the greatest prank ever.
- If I giant hand came out of the sky and delivered someone claiming to be Jesus (or whomever), and Jesus started producing wine, fish, walking on water, and raising himself from the dead, and everyone on earth could see it and no one could explain it, I'd think we were being visited by powerful aliens that wanted us to worship them and were using one of our ancient texts to make that easier.
- If a giant hand came out of the sky and lifted me up to heaven, and i was taken back in time to see the creation of the universe, and God himself conveyed to me a sense of his omnipotence and eternal presence, and convinced me that he had individually created the universe, including Earth and all of the people in it, and showed me hell, and attested that everything in the bible is true and correct. I'd be scared out of my mind because that guy is an unpredictable bloodthirsty narcissistic psychopath and we are his eternal playthings.

Don't waste your time quoting me with mockery and sarcasm.

 

[Scaff]

No I didn't, I don't recognize authenticity of that text in order to 'reinforce' it. That post you are referring to was attention to detail on my part. There was no 'reinforcing' going on.



You are making an assumption and that is the only truth here. You don't know much about me or my perspective on matters. I have no interest in converting anyone and would respectfully reject anyones request. If I had any clout or influence among Muslim people, my priority would be to focus on the people and their values. I was also mentioning 'Abrahamic God' a lot because I did not want it to be known that I'm Muslim and was forced to bring the up when it was relevant to the discussion I had with another member.



Not offended, I made myself clear. You should refrain from making assumptions or try attributing said things to me. And if you want to have a discussion then we can do so by agreeing to disagreeing and it ends there. Otherwise we will keep going in circles.

Do you still not see that you entire post here is (as you don't like a particular quote) a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Not a single thing I have posted has been a refusal to engage with you, rude or dismissive.

Yet that is how you have treated it, and that's not assumptive on my part either.

I did assume this: "That's why I didn't go into detail, because no one is interested in his character or biblical Prophet's character. "

In response to me saying "OK" to Mohammed being the prophet you would like to go into detail about?

That's not assumptive of anything on my part at all, it's a completely out of context, defensive reaction on yours.

As such please don't accuse me of not being willing to engage in conversation.

Don't waste your time quoting me with mockery and sarcasm.

You were asked a question, as the opening to @Danoff post clearly states "thought experiment".

Which is now showing a pattern of behaviour that seems to indicate that you are either consciously unwilling or subconsciously not ready to actually discuss and question the beliefs you hold.

Whichever it is don't use it as an excuse to attack others for doing nothing more than asking questions.

Or in my case for simply saying 'OK'.

 

[BobK]

Don't waste your time quoting me with mockery and sarcasm.

Why do you feel that @Danoff was using mockery and sarcasm? I think what he said was quite reasonable and reflected his thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, based on his other postings on the general topic.

 

[Danoff]

Don't waste your time quoting me with mockery and sarcasm.

Why do you feel that @Danoff was using mockery and sarcasm? I think what he said was quite reasonable and reflected his thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, based on his other postings on the general topic.

Quite right, that was not mockery or sarcasm, I stand behind every line.

 

[AdamA998]

Not a single thing I have posted has been a refusal to engage with you, rude or dismissive.

Yet that is how you have treated it, and that's not assumptive on my part either.

I did assume this: "That's why I didn't go into detail, because no one is interested in his character or biblical Prophet's character. "

In response to me saying "OK" to Mohammed being the prophet you would like to go into detail about?

That's not assumptive of anything on my part at all, it's a completely out of context, defensive reaction on yours.

As such please don't accuse me of not being willing to engage in conversation.

You're not engaging in a beneficial discussion. You lied about me justifying a text that I don't recognize in to be authentic in the first place. You made an assumption that I'm interested in converting people, when I made it clear in my response that's not the case, and you ignored the response and moved on to another point. Until you acknowledge you made a wrong assumption in that regard, we can't move on to discuss anything further. I did not want to go into detail on Mohammed, I mentioned I hold different perspective on his character and life then majority of Muslims do. The 'OK sounded passive aggressive so I assumed you don't want me to share that. I assumed wrong as per your response to me, and I acknowledged that(unlike you) and shared my brief perspective on Mohammed in one of the earlier posts.

Quite right, that was not mockery or sarcasm, I stand behind every line.

Most of it sounded like mockery of those who believe God to me. I only focused on your last point, I respect your belief there. I don't see how a God is narcissist, doesn't come off as that to me. Unless you believe that due to his demand for us to worship him. Give a human as much power as God has and see what follows. God doesn't think he is too good for people or to even acknowledge them. He is able to cultivate great relationships humans even though anything with his power would not even acknowledge humans. He responds to believer's questions, and he forgives many sins. The narcissists I see are in modern day celebrity culture which is influencing common people who see segregate themselves as 'cool' vs. non cool people and don't respect anyone else they don't deem 'cool'. And the psychopaths are modern day politicians who commit abuses and atrocities against their people or others and insist their actions are good.

 

[Danoff]

Most of it sounded like mockery of those who believe God to me.

Nope, I'm explaining my thought process - looking for a likely explanation at every step. It takes a lot to conclude that what you're observing is the work of a omnipotent creator of the universe. A lot.

I only focused on your last point, I respect your belief there. I don't see how a God is narcissist, doesn't come off as that to me. Unless you believe that due to his demand for us to worship him.

Yea... I mean the whole demand for us to worship him thing. Seems just a tad narcissistic.

Give a human as much power as God has and see what follows.

We're not talking about a human. We're talking about a model of moral perfection right?

God doesn't think he is too good for people or to even acknowledge them. He is able to cultivate great relationships humans even though anything with his power would not even acknowledge humans. He responds to believer's questions, and he forgives many sins.

One of those sins being not worshiping him.... does that seem like it should rise to the level of eternal torture to you?

Edit:

What kind of being demands love and worship at penalty of eternal torture?

 

[Imari]

The 'OK sounded passive aggressive so I assumed you don't want me to share that.

How on earth does "OK", in text, sound passive/aggressive?

Mate, we're seeing a lot of your defensiveness being triggered in response to really perfectly simple things. You've come here expecting a fight, and somehow you're managing to turn absolutely everything into some sort of attack against you.

How about you be a bit more Abrahamic and not assume the worst of people?

I don't see how a God is narcissist...

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which there is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings.

Seems fairly accurate to me.

 

[AdamA998]

Nope, I'm explaining my thought process - looking for a likely explanation at every step. It takes a lot to conclude that what you're observing is the work of a omnipotent creator of the universe. A lot.

Fair enough

Yea... I mean the whole demand for us to worship him thing. Seems just a tad narcissistic.

I'm not seeking to change your perspective so if that's what you believe than it is what it is.

We're not talking about a human. We're talking about a model of moral perfection right?

Well you are comparing him to a human if you believe a demand to worship is narcissistic, of course from a human perspective.

What kind of being demands love and worship at penalty of eternal torture?

I'm pretty sure none of the three Abrahamic faiths believe in eternal hell. Judaism believes hell is a purgatory for souls, I might be wrong but I've heard that before. Would need someone Jewish to clarify. Christianity I'm not too sure, heard mixed opinions from Christian scholars. In Islam there is no eternal hell.

How on earth does "OK", in text, sound passive/aggressive?

Mate, we're seeing a lot of your defensiveness being triggered in response to really perfectly simple things. You've come here expecting a fight, and somehow you're managing to turn absolutely everything into some sort of attack against you.

How about you be a bit more Abrahamic and not assume the worst of people?

I think you're getting a little too excited, this discussion carried on from a discussion about GT Sport and Christianity. I responded to the OP and mod's told me to move the discussion here. Then people here took the discussion to something else.

What do you mean don't assume the worst of the people? Can you be clear and specific? I don't get what you want me to get out of your broad rhetorical posts that could be referring to many different things. If you're referring to my discussion with Scaff, all I said was the discussion got all over the place and wanted to him acknowledge he's making an assumption and not to ignore that. 'OK' definitely sounds passive aggressive, it comes off like an 'Um ... okay', so if he used different wording like 'Go ahead' I would have assumed something differently. I assumed that meant he did not want to hear that, and I assumed wrong after he clarified and acknowledged the mistake on my part. Because that's the ethical thing to do, and I expect him to follow through as well.

 

[Dotini]

I still think this is the best explanation for gods in ancient times. Aliens visited Earth, people were confused, they wrote about it, and thus a religion was born.

And not just "a" religion; many if not all worshipped sky gods, wrote of them if they had writing, and depicted them in all manner of art, even in celestially oriented architecture. The present-day UFO phenomenon lends added likelihood to the ancient sky gods theory, as both continue to influence our belief systems, like a kind of thermostat operating in the background or sub-structure of culture.

Neo-paganism and AI worship may be consistent with the "alien thermostat" theory of God.

 

[Danoff]

Well you are comparing him to a human if you believe a demand to worship is narcissistic, of course from a human perspective.

Yahweh describes himself as a "jealous" god. His words not mine. So if we're adhering to the bible (which was my example), narcissism is an admission.

I'm pretty sure none of the three Abrahamic faiths believe in eternal hell. Judaism believes hell is a purgatory for souls, I might be wrong but I've heard that before. Would need someone Jewish to clarify. Christianity I'm not too sure, heard mixed opinions from Christian scholars. In Islam there is no eternal hell.

I'm sure it depends on who you talk to. Some Christians believe in eternal hell, others do not. I'm going by doctrine though, in which case eternal hell is laid out.

Some quick quotes:

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).

(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
• Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
• Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

• Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
• Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
• Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

 

[AdamA998]

Yahweh describes himself as a "jealous" god. His words not mine. So if we're adhering to the bible (which was my example), narcissism is an admission.

Well this makes it complicated to give my perspective since Mohammed said the previous text was 'Munhiref', an Arabic term implying altered or something along those lines. So in Islam we really only use Islamic sources. Although I will say God does exhibit emotions, I am not sure of the extent of them and would have to do some research that. Can you give me the context of these incident/verse where Yahweh describes himself as a jealous God?

I'm sure it depends on who you talk to. Some Christians believe in eternal hell, others do not. I'm going by doctrine though, in which case eternal hell is laid out.

I looked up one of the verses:

Daniel 12:2-3New International Version (NIV)
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

......

Is that website sure that 'shame and everlasting contempt' is intended to imply eternal damnation or spiritual discontent with ones self? I do not know how Christians interpret that verse or what the New International Version is. I'm more familiar with the Quran so I apologize in advance.

 

[Danoff]

Well this makes it complicated to give my perspective since Mohammed said the previous text was 'Munhiref', an Arabic term implying altered or something along those lines. So in Islam we really only use Islamic sources. Although I will say God does exhibit emotions, I am not sure of the extent of them and would have to do some research that. Can you give me the context of these incident/verse where Yahweh describes himself as a jealous God?

Quick search:

Exodus 20:5 [Full Chapter]
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Bible search results
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Exodus 34:14
(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealousGod.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 6:15
for the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 32:16
They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Joshua 24:19
But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ezekiel 36:5
therefore thus says the Lord God: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ezekiel 36:6
Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ezekiel 39:25
[ The Lord Will Restore Israel ] “Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Nahum 1:2
[ God's Wrath Against Nineveh ] The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

I'm more familiar with the Quran so I apologize in advance.

Suffice it to say that many Christians believe their doctrine supports the notion of an eternal hell. Jews as well I would imagine.

 

[TheNuvolari]

Yes!

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Lofty L]

I have an odd feeling that this might belong here maybe?


OT: I believe there is someone or something of a higher power watching over us

Going on my gift cars for doing my driving hours every day no

 

[AdamA998]

@Danoff

I believe that jealousy is protective jealousy. I am not a Christian so I don't know how Christians interpret those verses. In Islam we do believe God has protective jealousy which is described in here:

1. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that he said: “Allah has protective jealousy, and the protective jealousy of Allah is provoked when the believer does something that Allah has forbidden.”

..........

What is not right or appropriate is to describe Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, as having protective jealousy similar to that of people. As for describing Him as having protective jealousy in a manner that is befitting to His majesty, may He be glorified and exalted, it is not wrong or incorrect to ascribe that to Him, as is indicated by this hadith and other similar reports. Allah, may He be glorified, is described by Ahl as-Sunnah as having protective jealousy in a manner that cannot be likened to that of people, and no one knows the essence and nature thereof except Him, may He be glorified. This is similar to what is said about His rising over the Throne [istiwaa’] and descending, and His pleasure and wrath, and other divine attributes. And Allah knows best.

End quote from the comment of Shaykh Ibn Baaz on Fath al-Baari by Ibn Hajar (2/531).

Shaykh ‘Abdullah al-Ghunaymaan (may Allah preserve him) said, commenting on the hadith, “the protective jealousy of Allah is provoked when the believer does something that Allah has forbidden”:

The protective jealousy of Allah, may He be exalted, is one of His attributes that are His alone, and it is not like the protective jealousy of people; rather it is an attribute that is befitting to His greatness, like the attributes of wrath, pleasure and other unique attributes that no created being shares with Him. It is already established that there is none like unto Him, may He be exalted, in His Essence or in His attributes or deeds.

https://islamqa.info/en/161451

.......

Some Jews don't even believe in a hell, some do, so it's complex but you get the point. I'm sure all three will claim they don't believe in eternal damnation. Although I don't know how they would present their case(with exception of Muslim one).

 

[Scaff]

You're not engaging in a beneficial discussion.

I'm attempting to.

You lied about me justifying a text that I don't recognize in to be authentic in the first place.

Nope.

You made an assumption that I'm interested in converting people, when I made it clear in my response that's not the case, and you ignored the response and moved on to another point. Until you acknowledge you made a wrong assumption in that regard, we can't move on to discuss anything further.

No I didn't make an assumption. I said 'it seems', assumption would be 'you are'.

I'm not sure if this is down to a language barrier, but I most certainly didn't assume I simply put across how your responses could be read.

I did not want to go into detail on Mohammed, I mentioned I hold different perspective on his character and life then majority of Muslims do. The 'OK sounded passive aggressive so I assumed you don't want me to share that. I assumed wrong as per your response to me, and I acknowledged that(unlike you) and shared my brief perspective on Mohammed in one of the earlier posts.

Then why did you offer to do so:

"Well I have a different perspective(as opposed to mainstream Muslim beliefs on him) on Prophet Mohammed, and if you'd like I could share that. I am most familiar with him."

Those are your words and all I did was reply OK, you had not at that point said you did not want to go into detail on Mohammed, quite the opposite.

No I didn't, I don't recognize authenticity of that text in order to 'reinforce' it. That post you are referring to was attention to detail on my part. There was no 'reinforcing' going on.

You don't need to recognise the authority of the text to re-enforce the analogy it is.

You are making an assumption and that is the only truth here.

I am 100% not.

You don't know much about me or my perspective on matters. I have no interest in converting anyone and would respectfully reject anyones request. If I had any clout or influence among Muslim people, my priority would be to focus on the people and their values. I was also mentioning 'Abrahamic God' a lot because I did not want it to be known that I'm Muslim and was forced to bring the up when it was relevant to the discussion I had with another member.

Which is why I said 'it seems', not 'you are'.

Not offended, I made myself clear. You should refrain from making assumptions or try attributing said things to me. And if you want to have a discussion then we can do so by agreeing to disagreeing and it ends there. Otherwise we will keep going in circles.

Sorry, but you don't get to tell others what they should post, I will reply to your posts in the manner I wish to, and as long as its within the AUP its not going to be an issue.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff

I believe that jealousy is protective jealousy. I am not a Christian so I don't know how Christians interpret those verses. In Islam we do believe God has protective jealousy which is described in here:

Ok, great. Protective jealousy over the notion of worshiping other gods is... narcissism.

Some Jews don't even believe in a hell, some do, so it's complex but you get the point. I'm sure all three will claim they don't believe in eternal damnation. Although I don't know how they would present their case(with exception of Muslim one).

I'm sure all three would also claim that they do believe in eternal damnation (and the fourth one too... Mormons, although I think they call it "Spirit Prison"). Just depends on who you talk to.

So... coming back around to the point. Great, you don't believe in hell. That's fine. Whatever punishment you think sinners and non-believers get, you must believe it applies to those who break the rule of worshiping false gods right? Infidels deserve some kind of punishment right? What kind of god demands love and obedience at the threat of punishment?