Does Anyone Else Consider These "Hybrid" Cars Cheating?

[Johnnypenso]

That Lancer didn't exactly blow away the competition. It was more like an extreme example of pitting a powerful car against lower powered but more nimble cars, in which case it really depends on the track which group has the advantage.

It seems a little unfair to expect the PP system to work well at such high HP anyway. That's not really in the range where they would be interested in the accuracy of the system.

Because the guy can't drive. If I was in that Lancer I would have won the race by a minute or more, or used just enough throttle to win by a small margin to escape detection. But if you know who is in that room, the odds of winning by more than a couple of seconds "legitimately" are slim and none and slim has left town.
Things are at the point now where I could probably put together an M3 GTR at 550PP with 30 or 40 more HP and have just enough of an advantage that I could win and make it look legit.

 

[Exorcet]

BMW M5 '08 - 1,032 BHP 619pp
Toyota 86 GT '12 - 578 BHP 550pp

Veyron stock 1000 hp 622 PP
Pagani Zonda 569 hp 556 PP

So those cars are probably right where they should be. Maybe a little underpowered.

 

[Wankelhead]

Veyron stock 1000 hp 622 PP
Pagani Zonda 569 hp 556 PP

So those cars are probably right where they should be. Maybe a little underpowered.

That without hacking?
Then yea, it seems the PP still is relevant. At least as relevant as it was before the "attack of the overpowered hybrids". For those cars to be that powerfull, and still fit in a PP without the negative PP glitch, they had to get a big handicap, and I supose they're pretty much like the Veyron, powerful but lacking handling.

 

[Exorcet]

That without hacking?

Yes, taken from mygranturismo.net

For those cars to be that powerfull, and still fit in a PP without the negative PP glitch, they had to get a big handicap, and I supose they're pretty much like the Veyron, powerful but lacking handling.

It's pretty simple, Johnny was a little to focused on hp. He used the BMW example before claiming that 1000 hp at 600 PP was unheard of. That doesn't make much sense since PP isn't all that closely related to HP. Power/weight matters more.

All I did was find cars with nearly the same power and nearly the same weight, and the PP's happened to match up. I also have a few ~650PP cars with 1000 HP, but all of them use weight reduction. The M5 is very heavy, so to compete with those cars, it's going to need a lot of power.

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

Cheating who exactly ?

 

[esoxhntr]

Exactly what Exorcet said. I guarantee the 550+ hp gt86 was not on the stock chassis either.

As for the Lancer, I give you that one Johnny but at the same time I'll bet your left nut that it has negative PP due to having a bazillion HP. Those cars ARE easy to spot though and I would not be too concerned with them. You stated either in this thread or another one that the bigger concern are the more undetectable hacks/swaps [ie. engine swaps] and I am telling you PP takes care of those.

As an example, I've a C3 Vette Convertible that I swapped a C5 motor into and yes, the newer vette motor makes the old girl at least vaguely competitive now at 505pp (likely due to the C5 motor's power curve being better suited to circuit racing vs the more lowendish C3 motor [PP is not too friendly to torquey motors]) but it does not turn it into a HSC killer on the 'ring at 505.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

There's a Devil Z replica that has 600PS with less than 1200kg, top speed over 220mph and can enter 550PP room. With swapped chassis, a good driver could make the car very potent.

 

[Teal]

I think that the cars are cheating. Example. I have a GTr Vspec that is running very low 9 second runs. and when another v-spec drag me and beats me by a 3rd of the track, that's BS. Its one thing to race a hybrid vs another Hybrid. But when you are racing legit cars, your cheating. I don't care what excuse you are using,I don't care if you are bored. Cheating is still cheating. And the only person you are cheating is yourself.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Veyron stock 1000 hp 622 PP
Pagani Zonda 569 hp 556 PP

So those cars are probably right where they should be. Maybe a little underpowered.

Incorrect again. A stock Veyron 0/0/0 with oil change is 1005hp and 641PP. Detuned to 622 PP it has 860 HP, 170 short of the BMW and the Veyron handles like a tank, the M5 does not.

A fully tuned 550PP, world beater Zonda C12, 550PP, at 1240 kgs has about 484 hp in my garage, 495 HP in Praiano's 1385 kg version here:https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7711747#post7711747 At tracks like Road Course Indy, Monza etc. it's almost impossible to beat.

This is where actually playing the game and playing at a high level might help you understand the subtleties of the PP system. A 495 HP Zonda at 550PP is a top 10 car with a good tune and a good driver, but it doesn't handle any better than the brand new Toyota GT12. Give me the GT12 and 578 HP all day long. Give me a 4wd NSX all day long. Give me a 450PP RWD Honda Integra and change nothing else altered on the car and it might get beat by the Lotus Elise, but it would be close. I doubt anything else will be near it though. These small, subtle, virtually unpolicable changes will give a skilled or even average driver all the advantage they need.

There's a Devil Z replica that has 600PS with less than 1200kg, top speed over 220mph and can enter 550PP room. With swapped chassis, a good driver could make the car very potent.

That's a 240Z isn't it? That would be extremely fast. So you mean it could have the skin of a 240Z, the chassis of a supercar, 600HP and weigh 1200kgs?. If that's the case, then I rest my case!!! Game, set and match!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Incorrect again. A stock Veyron 0/0/0 with oil change is 1005hp and 641PP. Detuned to 622 PP it has 860 HP, 170 short of the BMW and the Veyron handles like a tank, the M5 does not.

A fully tuned 550PP, world beater Zonda C12, 550PP, at 1240 kgs has about 484 hp in my garage, 495 HP in Praiano's 1385 kg version here:https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7711747#post7711747 At tracks like Road Course Indy, Monza etc. it's almost impossible to beat.

This is where actually playing the game and playing at a high level might help you understand the subtleties of the PP system. A 495 HP Zonda at 550PP is a top 10 car with a good tune and a good driver, but it doesn't handle any better than the brand new Toyota GT12. Give me the GT12 and 578 HP all day long. Give me a 4wd NSX all day long. Give me a 450PP RWD Honda Integra and change nothing else altered on the car and it might get beat by the Lotus Elise, but it would be close. I doubt anything else will be near it though. These small, subtle, virtually unpolicable changes will give a skilled or even average driver all the advantage they need.



That's a 240Z isn't it? That would be extremely fast. So you mean it could have the skin of a 240Z, the chassis of a supercar, 600HP and weigh 1200kgs?. If that's the case, then I rest my case!!! Game, set and match!

That's right JP, 240Z with 3 liter twin turbo engine - Devil Z, I got the spec from a friend 592HP, 1176kg at 560+PP, add some ballast or a bit less HP, 550PP easy. It still use S30 Fairlady chassis but wider, handles like a dream on Sports Soft tire, that's what he said The car can be fitted with a 4WD chassis that will make it even more potent ( he kept the match chassis a secret though ) and still retain the same PP.

Can get to 650+HP and still less than 600 PP ...

EDIT : 550HP and 451 ft lb of torque with just 1258kg, 2.25 kg/HP ratio for 550PP with comfort soft can go over 200mph at SSR7 on most of the straight, while staying stable - he can do sub 5:20 at SSR7 online with comfort soft

At 650HP and 1176kg, 580PP, top speed over 220mph. These are not with 4wd chassis, he said the 4wd with some weight adjustment would yield same power/weight ratio at the same PP but with better traction and cornering.




Another update, he built another Devil Z, this time with a better suited chassis, still FR, but at 550PP, it has 584HP, 465 ft lb of torque, 50/50 weight distribution, 1200kg for a mere 2.02 kg/HP ratio He called it the perfect Devil Z incarnation ...

Full power at 659HP, no ballast at 1000kg, and only 552PP - closer to the manga spec.
Past 630HP, adding more HP DO NOT increase PP, adding weight ballast instead increase PP And there's more, the cool part is putting 20kg at -50 ( up front ) reduce PP to 550. So now with 1020kg, 659HP and only 550PP while slightly changed the stock weight distribution, a capable driver on Sports tire or Racing tire would be very fast.

If compared to other 550PP dominant cars with RS tire, I think this Devil Z can give a good fight or win with a good driver. Adding a bit of aero and more tuning will make it even better while still having 600+HP at 550PP and just over 1000kg. If a good modder knew how to take advantage of the PP system, I am sure other cars can have less PP with higher HP and/or lower weight at the same time.

Finding the best chassis + engine that match would also be the key. Can we call this cheating when used online against anyone who does not aware of the car's tune ( hybrid with optimized PP ) ? I think we all know the answer. The Devil Z is best used for cruising or highway battle at SSR7.

 

[Exorcet]

Incorrect again. A stock Veyron 0/0/0 with oil change is 1005hp and 641PP. Detuned to 622 PP it has 860 HP, 170 short of the BMW and the Veyron handles like a tank, the M5 does not.

A fully tuned 550PP, world beater Zonda C12, 550PP, at 1240 kgs has about 484 hp in my garage, 495 HP in Praiano's 1385 kg version here:https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7711747#post7711747 At tracks like Road Course Indy, Monza etc. it's almost impossible to beat.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I'd be surprised if the M5 is that much better than the Veyron, but neither cars was one I preferred to use. The 86 handles well, so I suppose it might still do so at ~600 hp.

But then again, we're talking ~100 (or more) hp differences in cars with roughly the same weight as the competition. This isn't exactly invisible. You may even take notice during the race.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip...
Another update, he built another Devil Z, this time with a better suited chassis, still FR, but at 550PP, it has 584HP, 465 ft lb of torque, 50/50 weight distribution, 1200kg for a mere 2.02 kg/HP ratio He called it the perfect Devil Z incarnation ...

Full power at 659HP, no ballast at 1000kg, and only 552PP - closer to the manga spec.
Past 630HP, adding more HP DO NOT increase PP, adding weight ballast instead increase PP And there's more, the cool part is putting 20kg at -50 ( up front ) reduce PP to 550. So now with 1020kg, 659HP and only 550PP while slightly changed the stock weight distribution, a capable driver on Sports tire or Racing tire would be very fast.

If compared to other 550PP dominant cars with RS tire, I think this Devil Z can give a good fight or win with a good driver. Adding a bit of aero and more tuning will make it even better while still having 600+HP at 550PP and just over 1000kg. If a good modder knew how to take advantage of the PP system, I am sure other cars can have less PP with higher HP and/or lower weight at the same time.

Finding the best chassis + engine that match would also be the key. Can we call this cheating when used online against anyone who does not aware of the car's tune ( hybrid with optimized PP ) ? I think we all know the answer. The Devil Z is best used for cruising or highway battle at SSR7.

Haha..you don't need to convince me. It's guys that think that a 600hp/550PP/1000kg would "fit" in with the standard PP system because he went to some website and found a car that doesn't exist with nearly the same hp.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I'd be surprised if the M5 is that much better than the Veyron, but neither cars was one I preferred to use. The 86 handles well, so I suppose it might still do so at ~600 hp.

But then again, we're talking ~100 (or more) hp differences in cars with roughly the same weight as the competition. This isn't exactly invisible. You may even take notice during the race.

The bigger picture you are missing is not about the M5 or the 86 or any other individual car. When it comes to hybrids, all kinds of chassis/drivetrain/powerplants are in play. If you can give an M5 a 180 hp advantage and a GT12 a 100 HP advantage, you can do the same with an NSX or maybe a Volkswagen Nardo Concept or some other car that's already heads above the competition. I don't need to see any specific example because I could already deduce from the 3300 HP/550PP Lancer that you can create just about anything you want if you are creative enough.

 

[Exorcet]

The bigger picture you are missing is not about the M5 or the 86 or any other individual car. When it comes to hybrids, all kinds of chassis/drivetrain/powerplants are in play. If you can give an M5 a 180 hp advantage and a GT12 a 100 HP advantage, you can do the same with an NSX or maybe a Volkswagen Nardo Concept or some other car that's already heads above the competition.

Not necessarily true. It's just how the PP calculation works out. Though I guess if you wanted to be safe, you could assume this. It still wouldn't let you get around a dual regulation check.

I don't need to see any specific example because I could already deduce from the 3300 HP/550PP Lancer that you can create just about anything you want if you are creative enough.

All that really shows is that there is a PP peak. Ridox2JZGTE found where it is exactly for the Nissan he's mentioning. You're bound by the PP system no matter what (unless the host leaves the room completely open to anything).

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not necessarily true. It's just how the PP calculation works out. Though I guess if you wanted to be safe, you could assume this. It still wouldn't let you get around a dual regulation check.

.

Again your unfamiliarity with the game and PP system fails you. I have many heavyweight 550PP cars in my garage tuned for larger tracks with well over 550 HP. Set the limit at 550 hp for example and all those cars are excluded. Still no problem, I'll just detune my GT12 or any other great handling car to 549HP and still blow you away. Forgetting how cumbersome it is to leave the track, lose your qualifying time and have to leave again to reorient late entries for a moment, any restriction you can think of to limit hacked cars can easily be worked around be a creative hacker.

 

[Samus]

Fact of the matter is the PP system wasn't created with car transplants in mind. In theory it should work no matter what the combination as long as the basics are working but with so many variations of chassis, engine, grip, downforce etc etc it's quite clear that it won't be able to cope with everything. It wasn't designed to.

 

[Exorcet]

Set the limit at 550 hp

You could do that, but pretending that 550 PP = 550 hp doesn't sound very effective.

for example and all those cars are excluded. Still no problem, I'll just detune my GT12 or any other great handling car to 549HP and still blow you away.

Which would still leave it overpowered.

Forgetting how cumbersome it is to leave the track, lose your qualifying time and have to leave again to reorient late entries for a moment, any restriction you can think of to limit hacked cars can easily be worked around be a creative hacker.

If that was the case, no one would have ever bothered using things like dual restriction in the first place. There are plenty of ways of keeping these cars out, but they won't work if the host thinks he shouldn't have to enforce his own rules.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You could do that, but pretending that 550 PP = 550 hp doesn't sound very effective.

Which would still leave it overpowered.

If that was the case, no one would have ever bothered using things like dual restriction in the first place. There are plenty of ways of keeping these cars out, but they won't work if the host thinks he shouldn't have to enforce his own rules.

Outside of people who don't play this game or those that aren't hardcore enough to really get the subtlties of the PP system, I think you are about the only person on the planet who doesn't get this...lol. You can come up with any lobby restrictions you want and there's a way around it in a hacked car, its that simple.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Is there any non hacked / legit car with 550PP and comfort soft tires able to hold speed over 200mph on large portion of road at SSR7 online with close to 210 mph top speed at the tunnel and have low/sub 5 minutes lap time ? I met one online last week, I can't keep up with my legit R32 GTR, CS tire at 550PP

But the good news, I got a hold of Devil Z now, very interesting car, the handling is devilishly good on it's default tune comfort soft tire.

 

[Drevenger]

Find it funny that in the wonderful world of Poly D the hybrid thing as not yet been acknowledge. Maybe everyone is silent because they don't want to upset Big Boss Kaz wich is too preoccupied traveling the globe.

Another not so funny thing is when you browse the pub lobbies, every hack room I see is showboating their 1546786542hp cars or 8 feet invisible suspension. You never see a "Realistic Hack" room, leaving me to conclude that most of those going online with "realistic" hybrid goes in the sole purpose of cheating.
Now before I hear dual restrict the room, its important to mention that most people playing GT5 doesn't necessarily have a clue about this hack thing. It can be frustrating for the newberry getting cheated without even knowing it and the fast legit online racers who got kicked witch hunts way.

Btw. the title of the thread is not "We should use dual restrictions to prevent cheatin"

 

[Johnnypenso]

Is there any non hacked / legit car with 550PP and comfort soft tires able to hold speed over 200mph on large portion of road at SSR7 online with close to 210 mph top speed at the tunnel and have low/sub 5 minutes lap time ? I met one online last week, I can't keep up with my legit R32 GTR, CS tire at 550PP

But the good news, I got a hold of Devil Z now, very interesting car, the handling is devilishly good on it's default tune comfort soft tire.

My mechanic does a lot of custom work alongside working on my tanks. Last summer he had a 280Z in the garage with a small block stuffed in there. I had pics of it on my old phone. Stuff like that would make me interested in hybrids but I'll hold off until I see which way PD is going with this...lol

 

[Exorcet]

Outside of people who don't play this game or those that aren't hardcore enough to really get the subtlties of the PP system, I think you are about the only person on the planet who doesn't get this...lol. You can come up with any lobby restrictions you want and there's a way around it in a hacked car, its that simple.

There isn't much to get. I'm looking at this from a realistic perspective, you're looking at from the worst case situation. That's fine.

Being able to do one thing does not imply the ability to do anything though. If hackers were all powerful, you wouldn't have anything to worry about. Everything is done, whatever PD adds to fix the issue, the hackers will get around. They'll get around GT6 too, no matter what PD changes.

I'd prefer to actually understand what they can and can't do so at least it's possible to fine a solution.

Btw. the title of the thread is not "We should use dual restrictions to prevent cheatin"

It's not, but it's that subject is one of the discussions going on in the thread as it's closely related to the issue here.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

My mechanic does a lot of custom work alongside working on my tanks. Last summer he had a 280Z in the garage with a small block stuffed in there. I had pics of it on my old phone. Stuff like that would make me interested in hybrids but I'll hold off until I see which way PD is going with this...lol

What if I say that the Devil Z has some of it's unique qualities from Manga in GT5 ? It's front end pretty nervous when braking from high speed, sometimes one tire goes red before the other, pulling to one side even when braking from quite a straight line .. this is with no ABS, the way it takes long curves at SSR7 at above 190mph with comfort tires is mind boggling, ,the rear steps out but it doesn't lose traction just slight slip angle .. this is FR layout and no aero with less than 1200kg. The slower section before 1st tunnel is another highlight ... it gives that feeling of rush driving such an old car at crazy speed on a road tires -the cockpit shakes too I can see why Akio got addicted to it

 

[Johnnypenso]

What if I say that the Devil Z has some of it's unique qualities from Manga in GT5 ? It's front end pretty nervous when braking from high speed, sometimes one tire goes red before the other, pulling to one side even when braking from quite a straight line .. this is with no ABS, the way it takes long curves at SSR7 at above 190mph with comfort tires is mind boggling, ,the rear steps out but it doesn't lose traction just slight slip angle .. this is FR layout and no aero with less than 1200kg. The slower section before 1st tunnel is another highlight ... it gives that feeling of rush driving such an old car at crazy speed on a road tires -the cockpit shakes too I can see why Akio got addicted to it

I've never turned a lap at SSR7 I think a 240Z with a V8 swap from a Spyker C8, around 450 hp, SH tires, would make an awesome racing machine actually. Stuff like that would be fantastic in GT5, a dramatic leap ahead for the series, if it's done within the confines of the game, not by hackers.

This is a golden opportunity for PD for GT6 if they can swing negotiating the ability to do this with various manufacturers. I'm not fussy on drivetrain swaps as every single supercar would probably be 4wd to be competitive if that were the case. And most, if not all the high end manufacturers are not going to want you dropping 7 litres into their $1,000,000 Supercars I'd guess. Still there are lots of possibilities there, and combined with a good livery editor, could add a whole new dimension to GT6.

Any bets on whether Kaz sees the opportunity or not? My guess is no unfortunately, as I see PD as the staid old grandfather of sim racing, not the progressive young buck. Think Microsoft vs. Apple. GM vs. Lotus. I hope I'm wrong..I was once before. I think it was 1993.....

 

[Exorcet]

I'm not fussy on drivetrain swaps as every single supercar would probably be 4wd to be competitive if that were the case.

See Forza. AWD has downsides, on top of that it's basically worth more PI than anything except maybe full weight reduction. AWD is almost suicide for a competitive standpoint.

Realistic swaps, proper rules, and more host options will sort swaps out.

I hope I'm wrong..I was once before. I think it was 1993.....

My records show March 2013 (Joking, but I had to).

 

[Topsu]

Can hybrids be used in B-spec? If so, how does Bob handle the monster hybrids?

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

I've never turned a lap at SSR7 I think a 240Z with a V8 swap from a Spyker C8, around 450 hp, SH tires, would make an awesome racing machine actually. Stuff like that would be fantastic in GT5, a dramatic leap ahead for the series, if it's done within the confines of the game, not by hackers.

This is a golden opportunity for PD for GT6 if they can swing negotiating the ability to do this with various manufacturers. I'm not fussy on drivetrain swaps as every single supercar would probably be 4wd to be competitive if that were the case. And most, if not all the high end manufacturers are not going to want you dropping 7 litres into their $1,000,000 Supercars I'd guess. Still there are lots of possibilities there, and combined with a good livery editor, could add a whole new dimension to GT6.

Any bets on whether Kaz sees the opportunity or not? My guess is no unfortunately, as I see PD as the staid old grandfather of sim racing, not the progressive young buck. Think Microsoft vs. Apple. GM vs. Lotus. I hope I'm wrong..I was once before. I think it was 1993.....

Nah, one of the hybrids i have built is a Blue Nissan 240z, lowered on a slightly wider chassis, RB26DETT swap and 600 hp, same HP as the Devil Z. ...The japanese rooms, LOVE that car on SS7..

This is what i care about on the HYBRID Front.

Realistic HP, Realistic Engine swaps, Making a sexy Wingless stanced Mazda RX7, So many awesome possibilities, Ridiculous HP cars, Grew old, very fast, like i thought they would. I rather drive my 900HP 787B engine stealth NSX over a 15.000HP NSX anyday.

Well i must get back to my Ford KA build, Focus ST engine, MR and 350hp. ...Can anyone say modern day Fiesta Shogun??

 

[roflcoptor]

Well i must get back to my Ford KA build, Focus ST engine, MR and 350hp. ...Can anyone say modern day Fiesta Shogun??

I know of someone who built a Ka with Audi TT engine, for real. 👍

 

[JustDrivin]

Its only cheating if you use them in rooms that are for real racing or just doing free run doing lap times . But if you make a room that are for modded cars just enjoy then i cant see it hurting anyone the room name will say it all Hacked Cars / Modded Cars .

This is my video of Fiat 500 Redbull engined @Nurburgring http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P92P8FsFKk

 

[JCH8r]

The real problem isn't the car with 3000hp or -3k PP or a kart with 360hp. It's the Honda Civic with +25hp or other just slight improvements.

 

[Sarkazmo]

The real problem isn't the car with 3000hp or -3k PP or a kart with 360hp. It's the Honda Civic with +25hp or other just slight improvements.

You statement does make a lot of sense but it all comes down to the same thing: Cheating. Whether it's a slight, almost impossible to detect tweak to give an discrete advantage or a ridiculously over powered car it all comes down to not wanting to play by the rules because one believes that the rules should not apply to them. It's the same childish mindset just gone about in a different way.

Sark