Don't screw this up Turn 10!
- Thread starter CnPx
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I think it depends what you are looking for... Forza's actual on-track racing is super shallow and is miles behind what GTS/7 offer, and that is a massive difference for people who do longer races and for multiplayer, especially within the organized racing community.
Forza's racing has gone backwards since the debut of the series, not only failing to advance but actually getting shallower... and it wasn't deep to begin with.
- 1,386
- Virginia
- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
I'm sorry but I don't agree at all; I think it is disingenuous to say that it is miles behind GTS/7.
After racing for hours online and in career of GT7. GT7 has no way for you to share tunes with other people. GT7's online racing lobbies don't even have voice chat enabled.
All the racing in the career mode of GT7 is catch the leader; that alone really kills any intention of it feeling like real racing.
The only thing Forza really lacks is a flag system and online lobbies; not that the flag system in GT7 means all that much in online racing. GT7 does technically have a qualifying system but without voice chat and real community communication, no host ever really uses the system in online lobbies. The main advantage GT7 has is the custom lobby browser but the custom hosting system is absolutely awful in its current state. You can upgrade cars and get shared tunes while in an online lobby in Forza 7.
With how broken the current physics engines are in both games, I really don't get if qualifying really matters much at all. In GT7 you have 98 Integra Rs absolutely demolishing race cars (including hypercars) around the track and in Forza the same is seen with a Honda CRX.
I'm honestly trying to figure out exactly what is "deep" about GT7 racing yet "shallow" about Forza 7.
This is not me saying that the games can't be improved, I think both games have a huge amount of room for improvement and I'm happy Forza took a break.
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nvm
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I'm not really talking about career play as both games have terrible career modes and AI. That being said, I don't really see how improvements to the depth of the racing wouldn't help, even if it would be harder to see there than in competitive multiplayer.
I count the tune sharing stuff and server lists as QoL features more and not really things that impact on the on-track racing that much. I suppose you could argue it's harder to be competitive without being able to download a tune though, or that you could find better racing with a server list. FM7's lobby chat breaks 75% (or more for me personally) of the time anyways, so might as well not work there either.
I wasn't even thinking about the flag system, Forza lacks too many other things:
-No tire compounds, not even to select in the upgrade shop, nevermind change to a different compound during a race
-No ability to choose when to switch to rain tires
-No ability to change fuel load/short fill/splash in the pits
-No ability to choose to not change tires when pitting
-No ability to adjust fuel burn and tire wear rates in the lobby settings (hell, we can't even turn just one of the two off)
-The drafting model makes no sense to the point it is essentially broken
-Tire wear model is super simple, and it's rare that even comes into play since most cars run out of fuel waaay before tires
-No more progressive damage for individual parts of the car, meaning you no longer slowly take damage for hammering kerbs or etc
-Weather is currently very scripted-feeling and simple and lacks more precise controls, and without the tire strategy is a little hollow
-You can't even control time of day between the various available options, and the available options make no difference for track temp
Tire compounds and progressive damage were features lost (FM3 and FM5, iirc although obviously it has been a while) that shallowed up the racing from what we once had, and previous games in the series have had better drafting models that at least made sense.
It's pretty simple to see the differences in practice, check out someone like Super GT who plays both, and watch his GTS/7 daily race videos and compare it to his Forza Enduro GT hopper runs. Or you can watch GTS World Final things and compare it to FRC events.
A 20-ish min daily race in GTS/7 like they had 2 weeks ago or whatever at Daytona saw people trying to save fuel and pull a no-stop, people using fast cars that burn fuel and having to save, people using slower cars that don't need to save, people trying to double-stint tires to save a few seconds in the stop, people using an undercut with fresh tires, people using the draft to conserve fuel, people saving a lot of fuel early so they didn't have to save in their 2nd stint, and so on.
Compare that to the 20-ish min races in the Forza Enduro GT hopper. The only strategy is when you make your pit stop to avoid traffic, and the only reason you choose your car is for its pace, as tire wear or fuel burn are non-factors.
I see no reason to be sarcastic or snarky about it.
The FM4 rose-tinted glasses debate has been gone over before I'm sure and the people who praise that game tend to focus on the content, and GTS/GT7 having terrible careers doesn't mean that Forza's career modes aren't bad too.
The problem with focusing on the career modes as they currently sit in regards to the racing depth is that those issues aren't really ones that will be as obvious as the races are often super short, and even when they are longer the AI is so bad you don't really battle with them and you aren't forced to do much in the way of strategy. I'm not saying it should be that way or that career shouldn't matter, but realistically it's not going to be as apparent in career mode until a game has good AI. While some wouldn't benefit from the stuff I mentioned above, those who aren't fast enough to be way ahead of the hardest AI and/or do longer races would also benefit from those improvements, so they would be positive for both parts of the community, and given how difficult it seems to be to make decent AI, those improvements seem more realistic than good AI at this point.
The penalty systems in both games are terrible and need significant work, but to be fair to both T10 and PD, coming up with a penalty system that is consistent and fair has to be one of the hardest things to do. Even titles that have been around with a penalty system for a long time have their issues.
- 1,386
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- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
This is the problem with bullet point arguments, they never end.
Forza 7 allows you to: (GT7 doesn't)
- Team based racing
- Multi-Class racing
- Time-based racing
- Distance-based racing
- Restrictions for cars in races are way more varied and can be customized per bucket.
- Voice chat in online lobbies
- Share created tunes in an online lobby
- View live vehicle telemetry while racing
- Forza 7 does not have tire compounds but it has different tire types. (Forza 8 already confirmed to have compounds.)
- Different width tires.
- Different rim sizes on front and back of vehicle.
- Can install Turbo chargers or superchargers on almost any car rather than just one or the other.
- Can perform drivetrain swaps.
- Can perform engine swaps on almost any vehicle.
Both games offer advantages of the other, but neither are "miles ahead".
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- outsider819
Lots of fair comments in here- while I can't comment on the GT series as I haven't played it since 4, people are expecting and getting different things out of each series. Regardless of where we come out on that argument, I think we can all agree, the gameplay in the Forza Motorsport series has been backsliding for quite some time.
The most maddening thing to me is how much they get right, and then go and screw it up somewhere else. And how many things they've got right in the past and gone and screwed up.
The most maddening thing to me is how much they get right, and then go and screw it up somewhere else. And how many things they've got right in the past and gone and screwed up.
ICEYOU3
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- Selatapura, Usea
As someone who hasn't really followed Forza much, I find this interesting. I guess the series went through the same thing Gran Turismo went through, huh?
Forgot about that one honestly, after the somewhat bad taste WRC11 left in my mouth I'll hold off and wait for reviews to come out for it.
- 1,386
- Virginia
- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
I think it is a direct result of trying to please a wide variety of different players. From casual players, completely new to racing players, and all the way to veteran sim racers. I think Forza Horizon allows them to finally move on a bit from this philosophy and focus on a more focused group of players.
The only problem is that I hope this isn't detrimental for the games population.
Everything we have heard about Forza Motorsport 8 so far is a focus on gameplay, physics, and a more simulation experience.
I wouldn't expect the game to be completely devoid of options for people new to racing though but maybe not a heavy focus on those players.
I think Xbox's leadership during Xbox 360 and Xbox One were likely detrimental too.
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- 10,956
- Canada
@Morbid65
Apologies. That's just my personality I've grown so fond of haha.
Not disagreeing with that. But for me, there is no sense of progression nor rewards given in GTS. Whereas in GT7, the Cafe is like a literal tutorial mode with missions to complete, which should have been a side mission-type mode instead. Though I won't say Forza has a overall better career mode than any racing game. Far from it. That would always go to PCARS 2 imo, which actually had a sense of progression unlike the two games. Though having rewards in the mix would be wonderful!
Totally agree with all of that. 👍
Would be interesting to see how both companies will pull this off then.
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I agree that both games have their features and advantages, and that neither is miles ahead as an overall game, that was why I just tried to focus specifically on stuff which is critical to the on-track racing experience as otherwise we would be making pages of bullet points. While we all bitch about them and it can be easy to forget sometimes in our negativity, both games do a lot of things right too, even if certain areas are... not so good.
Many of the things you mention are useful features or fun (if under-utilized) options that are available, but things like live telemetry (which T10 broke a long time ago and then only half fixed), turbo/supercharger options, rim sizes and stuff may be fun for customization or tuning your own cars or whatever, but they don't have any noticeable impact on the quality of the racing itself. While they have gotten better, in previous cases some of the whacky build options like OP AWD swaps and such actually hurt the racing a bit by homogenizing build philosophies enough to limit what was viable, but not enough to make things closer like spec racing.
Team races for example are a feature, but aren't utilized by the game itself, and don't make the actual battles on track any better. I've been playing this series since day 1 of FM1 and I could probably count the times I've seen team races (outside of cat & mouse modes) used on one hand, and basic math can easily add team scores to nearly any game.
For just the racing, I'd say the only advantage Forza really has is in lobby restrictions and easier to set up multi-class. Distance based racing is just lap count, time based races are quite unrealistic and turn off some other features (no FRR, no time gaps in the HUD, no lap split times) and are rarely used outside of TORA-style enduros so while it is a feature it's sorta only half credit since hasn't been done right and has kinda been ignored by T10 for a long time now.
You guys must have good luck if you count FM7 as having voice chat. As I said above, probably 75% of the time it doesn't work for me, and the other 25% of the time it does work, it only works for maybe 10mins before it breaks. Even reporting it to Turn 10 they basically just said "use a party chat" and never bothered to fix it, and basically every single league I know uses exclusively parties for racing because the game chat is so unreliable. Maybe it works better on PC or XSX/S or something though.
No worries. I've been ripped apart here before for giving a snarky answer back to someone being snarky themselves, so was just trying to handle it... delicately or something to avoid a repeat.Apologies. That's just my personality I've grown so fond of haha.
I think the sense of progression in GTS was meant to be progressing up the ranks of multiplayer but obviously that's something that won't appeal to some... It's definitely an area where the different communities that these games appeal to and bring in argue, as for many the career mode is just an inconvenience they have to play to unlock some stuff for multiplayer and would prefer it be shorter, meanwhile others play almost exclusively career mode and want a huge list of events to check off.
Might be something to learn from the WRC series and their careers, or even some older games that had more advanced careers than either "big" franchise offer now. World of Outlaws Sprintcars 2002 for the PS2 had a pretty cool career mode that featured sponsorship and a race calendar where you sometimes had to choose between traveling to a high paying "crown jewel" event and losing out on local points, or sticking with your points championship and racing at home... Really it wouldn't take much to improve the careers of either title given where they are at.
During one of the Forza Monthly things where they were explaining FRR, Esaki I believe it was said that the FRR system could be tuned to adjust how harshly it penalizes certain actions and where the disqualification line was, and that theoretically players could be given control of it through a menu... That would be a fantastic start for T10.
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- Rockay City
Unpopular (?) opinion: PC2 career is good, but PC3 career is even better (even though PC3 is not really a Project CARS game, but a spiritual successor to Shift). A bit short for a GT/FM game though.
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MagpieRacer
Premium
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- Seagull_Racer
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- outsider819
No comment on PC3, but I like the progression of PC2 enough that I decided to try to finish it, and it's nice to know i'm not alone in really liking Ride 4's career!
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- MrCrynox
- Mr Crynox
What's so good about Ride 4's career mode then ?
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- outsider819
Know what? Couldn't really tell you. I can also see why many probably don't care for it. Seems like there's just enough variety and progression to work. It also fits with the "Race anything, anytime, anywhere" life moto racers below the top leagues live. Even if I have to run the AI in idiot mode and make judicious use of the rewind button. I won't complete it, but I expect I will have done much of it by the time I'm through, although I liked R2 a bit better, I finished that one. Then there's FM7, and I couldn't tell you why I didn't like it. I played through 6 almost in it's entirety, there was no real reason I shouldn't have loved 7, especially with race length options, etc. Sort of picked through what looked interesting and found much of it wasn't, I guess. I look at 7 a bit differently lately, I might enjoy it more now that I'm more likely to run and enjoy things as they are rather than trying to game the upgrade and tuning systems.
- 1,386
- Virginia
- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
I personally want a calendar-based career system with races available based on racing leagues you have been accepted into.
Starting with autocross and all the way up to F1.
They could use a sponsor system, which would give a reason for people to add sponsor liveries to the vehicle, and the sponsors could set goals for your races to improve payouts or vehicle rewards. The more successful you are opens you to bigger sponsors and more racing leagues. I wouldn't even mind a license test system before being accepted into a new league in order to help teach people to be competitive in the new league.
The game would start off with you in a small garage with a starter car you chose, worth around $3,000-$5,000 used, and you start in a local track event as your first race. After the track day, you compete in an autocross and impress a local business sponsor that will sponsor you for a local lemons style racing league and autocross racing league.
If they really wanted to make it more like the original Forza Motorsport; they could let you choose which country you started in and limit vehicle availability based on this until later in the game. They could have sponsor goals later in the game that unlock travel across country to make all tracks in your chosen region available and eventually international travel that makes tracks in other countries available.
Kind of a dream but would love to see such an implementation.
Starting with autocross and all the way up to F1.
They could use a sponsor system, which would give a reason for people to add sponsor liveries to the vehicle, and the sponsors could set goals for your races to improve payouts or vehicle rewards. The more successful you are opens you to bigger sponsors and more racing leagues. I wouldn't even mind a license test system before being accepted into a new league in order to help teach people to be competitive in the new league.
The game would start off with you in a small garage with a starter car you chose, worth around $3,000-$5,000 used, and you start in a local track event as your first race. After the track day, you compete in an autocross and impress a local business sponsor that will sponsor you for a local lemons style racing league and autocross racing league.
If they really wanted to make it more like the original Forza Motorsport; they could let you choose which country you started in and limit vehicle availability based on this until later in the game. They could have sponsor goals later in the game that unlock travel across country to make all tracks in your chosen region available and eventually international travel that makes tracks in other countries available.
Kind of a dream but would love to see such an implementation.
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- 24,612
- Anoka, MN
I've had similar thoughts for my "dream" career mode with the only major difference being a roster like you'd see in traditional sports games. It would just add that nice touch if you managed to end up racing in a top level series against some AI drivers you raced against in the beginning instead of some random names. It would also open the door to a team manager mode.
- 1,386
- Virginia
- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
I don't want to a single rival throughout every league, but I would definitely like to see AI drivers that progress alongside you. Maybe even AI drivers that could potentially become teammates with your sponsor.
A nice end-game mechanic to create passive income with an initial investment is if you could start your own sponsor and sponsor AI drivers and manage them and they could even use the cars from your garage. Like you said, if you could sponsor drivers you raced against. For instance, you could pay $1,000,000 to become a small sponsor and up to $20,000,000.
I like the drivatar system in that it recreates a more natural driving behavior but I think it's time to let go of the "driving against your friends" and instead create AI drivers with natural learnt behavior.
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- 3,138
- Mexico
Well, the AI in Grid Legends is nice, it is sufficiently self-aware of you and other AI drivers. I haven't seen them step on the brakes in the middle of corners, or take unrealistic lines, they bunch, disperse, run side by side, avoid crashes as best as they can, and will seize on your mistakes.
And this article explains drivatar rather well. Indeed, as I recalled, the first version learned from you.
www.gamedeveloper.com
And this article explains drivatar rather well. Indeed, as I recalled, the first version learned from you.
How Forza's Drivatar Actually Works
The Drivatar system is designed to reproduce how people race in the Forza series. But how does it actually work?
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- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
It absolutely did, yes.Indeed, as I recalled, the first version learned from you.
How Forza's Drivatar Actually Works
The Drivatar system is designed to reproduce how people race in the Forza series. But how does it actually work?
I believe it was with FM5 they went back to this route but it was entirely passive. In FM1 there were basically tests you did where you'd approach corners at escalating entry and exit speeds and it'd learn from that. I believe different types of corners played a role as well, i.e. Sweepers, Chicanes, Hairpins, etc.
I prefer the original if only because I'm more involved in it. Now that it learns passively, it learns your driving habits as well which is why some Drivatars can be more than a little...M. Rossi-y.
- 1,386
- Virginia
- FordGT40Guy
- FordGTGuy
M. Rossi is probably in a witness protection program nowadays.It absolutely did, yes.
I believe it was with FM5 they went back to this route but it was entirely passive. In FM1 there were basically tests you did where you'd approach corners at escalating entry and exit speeds and it'd learn from that. I believe different types of corners played a role as well, i.e. Sweepers, Chicanes, Hairpins, etc.
I prefer the original if only because I'm more involved in it. Now that it learns passively, it learns your driving habits as well which is why some Drivatars can be more than a little...M. Rossi-y.
- 28,289
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
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