DTM VI - Interest/Ideas Thread - Starts Late Jan 2012

[GTP_J_Turner]

GT5DTM Group
www.GT5DTM.webs.com
DTM V (Current season)​

The GT5 DTM Series Championship will return in the new year after the completion of its 5th season. For a new year I am proposing major changes to some of the details of the championship. Changes to cars, rules, race structure etc. are all up for discussion. Maybe you have some ideas of your own or maybe you like how we currently run the championships. Im looking for ideas and thoughts on how to improve and grow this series.

Cars
Currently the GT5DTM Series uses 5 DTM cars from the Standard garage. They are:

Mercedes CLK Touring Car
Audi A4 Touring Car
Audi TT-R
Vauxhall/Opel Astra Touring Car
BMW M3 GTR

These cars have either been in a real DTM season at some point in the last 20 years or have performance/look similar to cars featured in the DTM. They have great performace, speed and grip. They look great and sound better. However, they are (currently) only available as standard models in GT5 and are not readily available to buy. They only occasionally turn up in the On-line dealership.

I propose that we change to the following:

Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG '08
BMW M3 Coupe '07
Audi R8 4.2 FSI R Tronic '07

The real DTM 2012 will feature these cars:

Advantages of changing:
Premium cars - They look great
Colours - We can change them to any colour opening up the possibilty of more than 1 team with the same car.
Availability - The cars are always available in the dealership at reasonable cost (<500k Cr. with mods)

Disadvantages of changing:
Testing - Need to be tested and adjusted to match performance
Not Race Cars - Look out of place in a touring car championship (dont have sponsor stickers, huge body kits etc.)
Why change - Current cars good enough?

As more pro's and cons are suggested i'll add them to the list. Feel free to add you opinions.

Rules
The rules have evolved so much in 5 seasons and are probably some of the most rigorous and thorough in the GTPlanet community. However, this makes them quite complicated and open to interperetation. It takes quite a lot of explaining to new drivers all the different aspects of the DTM Series rules which puts a lot of people off.

Some areas we need to think about are:
Pit windows - Do we still want them? If so, do we want to change them in some way to make them easier to understand?
Tyre Rules - Do we want to keep the 3 compound rules? Switch to 2 compounds? Or just 1 compound? If 1, then which type?
Qualifying - Change how we qualify? Qualifying race?

The list is not full. If you can think of any rules you think should be added, removed or changed then post it and i'll add it to the list.

Race Structure
The current race structure is a 20-30 min qualifying followed by a race which normally lasts about an hour. Is this how we want to continue?
So suggestions have included:
3 Races in a knockout style - Like the successfull Special Stage events of DTM4 & DTMV
2 Races - 1 Short, 1 feature. Both score points.
2or3 Races - Equal length. Both score points.

Have a think about what you would like to see in your DTM VI and help take the series forward.

The season will start late January after testing to new cars, rules etc. if we decide on the changes. If we revert back to what we have at present then we could start ealier, but i think some of us could do with a well deserved rest.

Thanks,

Jon T
GT5DTM

 

[IMMORTALPILOT]

Iam in we drive the rules like ouer current championchip or??

 

[cgr-10]

Might consider signing up if I have time on my hands 👍 How about just using the Mercedes CLK TC, M3 GTR and the R8 LMS? Just another idea for you.

 

[SymP]

Wow, JT, major changes indeed!

About the cars.
An interesting selection. I will take a look at them but I don't think we can call it a DTM racing series anymore though if we're going to use these cars. Personaly I don't care about standard or premium. But I agree with the problem of availability of the current DTM cars although they all have been in the online dealership by now (multiple times).
My biggest issue about the cars is, as mentioned earlier in the DTMV thread, that I don't want to spend time on tuning anymore. So do (or can) we use these new cars unmodified?

Pit windows and tye rules
I believe these rules were initialy introduced to spread out the battles over the whole race and not just in the first part. Occasionally that has been the case but my experience is mostly that the overtaking takes place by pit stops and not on the track. And the finishing positions are also mostly defined after 2/3rd of the race hence my suggestion to split the race in 2 or 3 shorter races. It all depend on the cars and power but if we go any lower on the BHP's I think we should get rid of the Softs.

So to put this short, I would favor the following:
- Any car as long as they are equal and unmodifed (still favor the DTM cars though)
- 20 minutes qualifying, 1 sprint race, 1 feature race
- no mandatory pit stops, different compound for both races
- Still some kind of penalty system for finishing high
- 2 Special Stages and 4 normal races per season

 

[Green]

Hey guys the only way to get rid of tuning and still use DTM cars is to have everyone in the same car ie Race 1 - Monaco Audi TT-R ,Race 2 - Spa CLK ect. All those touring cars have different stock specs so the cars would be pretty un-even, same with the road cars JT picked.

If your thinking of doing the premium cars I would use the M5 I think it will be easier to get close to C 63 as the M3 is alot lighter than the C63. That Audi is 4WD aswell which may mean it will end up with alot less bhp than the other two. Still should be possible to get them equal, will require tuning but.

 

[GTP_J_Turner]

What if the perfect setup was found on each cars so they were all equal. Then when you sign up for the series you get sent your team car (they all cost less than 1m Cr) already tuned and modified. You would only have to change you final gear to suit the track, which you could share with you team mate.
Im only trying to add some ideas but glad the disscussion has started. Remember that we are only talking about changes, we may just use the same cars again anyway.

 

[GT5_X2010]

Well obviously I will be signing up with the main aim of starting and finishing the same season.

I'm neutral on car change. The current cars sound, well, they sound like dishwashers but cars with racing exhausts would sound excellent. I just want good, clean, fair racing. And the possibility of a win at some point

 

[SymP]

Hey guys the only way to get rid of tuning and still use DTM cars is to have everyone in the same car ie Race 1 - Monaco Audi TT-R ,Race 2 - Spa CLK ect. All those touring cars have different stock specs so the cars would be pretty un-even, same with the road cars JT picked.

That crossed my mind also but that means I have to drive a Vauxopel. But if I can get over that thought and learn to accept that.... it's probably a very good proposal.

So all one-make stock DTM car races. Sounds good! 👍

 

[GTP_J_Turner]

^ interesting. worth a thought...but then again nearly everyone had CLKs in DTM1 and it was a bit dull.

The new tyre models have played havoc with the 3 tyre compound rules we use. Think it might be time to ditch 'em. The do offer a new oppertunity though. As the softs go off really quick the choice is now to decide how many stops you want to make. So im thinking free choice on tyres but you must pit atleast once.

 

[Green]

What about just having BMW M3 RC, CLK and Audi TT-R, after all Merc,Audi and Bmw are the only companies involved in DTM. Then just having 2 man teams or something, tire wear ect will need to be tested for new season but I think having something like everyone starts on Softs ( or meds ) then after that it's up to them.

Also was thinking about the road cars you were talking about, what about a one off race The DTM Premium Car Challange or something ( to celebrate 5 seasons of DTM (GT5) and the new 2012 season kicking off in April) . Winner gets First choice of car for new DTM season. ( If we can get cars equal ect)

I don't think the spec racing will work in DTM tbh, unless we are all in the same car which will just make reviewing the replays harder lol

Anyway just thought I'd through a few idea's out there

 

[cgr-10]

What about just having BMW M3 RC, CLK and Audi TT-R, after all Merc,Audi and Bmw are the only companies involved in DTM. Then just having 2 man teams or something, tire wear ect will need to be tested for new season but I think having something like everyone starts on Softs ( or meds ) then after that it's up to them.

Also was thinking about the road cars you were talking about, what about a one off race The DTM Premium Car Challange or something ( to celebrate 5 seasons of DTM (GT5) and the new 2012 season kicking off in April) . Winner gets First choice of car for new DTM season. ( If we can get cars equal ect)

I don't think the spec racing will work in DTM tbh, unless we are all in the same car which will just make reviewing the replays harder lol

Anyway just thought I'd through a few idea's out there

Or maybe even the M3 RC, CLK and Audi R8 LMS? Audi are fielding an R8 now so it would fit in perfectly.

 

[IMMORTALPILOT]

I think maybe is the best when we drive all the same cars from the Garage.
Then the best driver win.
One Race CLK.
One Race A4
And every Race a other car.

 

[cgr-10]

I think maybe is the best when we drive all the same cars from the Garage.
Then the best driver win.
One Race CLK.
One Race A4
And every Race a other car.

But DTM isn't spec racing, so it kind of misses the point of JT's series.

 

[IMMORTALPILOT]

For me the Series like now is good for me.
That was only a Idea

 

[GTP_J_Turner]

Ok so combining the ideas above...

we have a 1 off championship to celebrate the end of our 1st year and 5 series.
3 races - Audi TT-R, Merc CLK, BMW M3 GTR.
1 race (special stage) - Corrisponding Spec Car (so the 3 i mention in the OP)
3 races - Audi TT-R, Merc CLK, BMW M3 GTR.

Then the old format returns for DTM VII in March/April...

Thoughts?

 

[SymP]

I think maybe is the best when we drive all the same cars from the Garage.
Then the best driver win.
One Race CLK.
One Race A4
And every Race a other car.

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

DTM VI
less tuning, more driving

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍
​

 

[Green]

Or maybe even the M3 RC, CLK and Audi R8 LMS? Audi are fielding an R8 now so it would fit in perfectly.

No Audi are using the A5 next season and I'm pretty sure most of the audi teams where using A4 last season. The only reason I said th audi TT is because it's a better car than A4 and would stand a better chance against M3 and CLK.

But If we are doing same car races (spec) then I would use the A4 as it would be closer to what audi are using just now.

Ok so combining the ideas above...

we have a 1 off championship to celebrate the end of our 1st year and 5 series.
3 races - Audi TT-R, Merc CLK, BMW M3 GTR.
1 race (special stage) - Corrisponding Spec Car (so the 3 i mention in the OP)
3 races - Audi TT-R, Merc CLK, BMW M3 GTR.

Then the old format returns for DTM VII in March/April...

Thoughts?

yeah sounds good,..... special stage 3 races M3 race 1, Audi R8 race 2, Merc C63 race 3 all Spec races, is that what you where thinking of ? then just having 3 spec races on the other two nights with the touring cars. Is that what you mean or have I misunderstood ?

 

[aBrick]

ok so we are looking premium cars, which are all regulated to standard spec but have the same performance as a real DTM car...

the only car tht can do this is the Lexus IS F concept. don't hate me

its got the DTM style, performance and can be easily bought.

Any thoughts on this car?

 

[Green]

I don't think DTM is going premium m8 I think it's a toss up between Spec same car races or keeping it the same maybe changing the regs abit or something not sure really tbh.
Spec races would require everyone who enters to have all DTM cars which will be hard to do as you can't send these cars. I'm begining to think the only way to go is back to the regs we had last season but I think some people want things to be fairer as we all know some cars are better than others. Also some people don't have the time to tune their cars anymore......So I think thats where we are so not sure whats going to happen lol

 

[SymP]

I'm still hoping we find a solution to have a championship with the DTM Merc, Audi and BMW unmodified and untuned. With the power limiter it should be possible to get all cars competetive and have them on the track at the same time.
I believe the plan is that after tomorrows last race of DTM V we're going to use the following weeks to get to a final decision on the cars and format. We can also use that time to share the tickets coming from the seasonal events and get those cars.
And indeed, if it all doesn't work out, the rules of DTM3 and DTM4 is probably the best compromise then.

 

[IMMORTALPILOT]

I'm still hoping we find a solution to have a championship with the DTM Merc, Audi and BMW unmodified and untuned. With the power limiter it should be possible to get all cars competetive and have them on the track at the same time.
I believe the plan is that after tomorrows last race of DTM V we're going to use the following weeks to get to a final decision on the cars and format. We can also use that time to share the tickets coming from the seasonal events and get those cars.
And indeed, if it all doesn't work out, the rules of DTM3 and DTM4 is probably the best compromise then.

Yes iam also for Garage Cars.
And nobody must test the specs.

 

[SymP]

Reviewing the GT5 DTM Championship Series 2011​

Had some spare time () so here’s my analysis (and a reminder) why the regulations are as they are now and how we came to the current format.

Mission statement

To have a championship with clean and fair races in DTM cars with exciting competitive battles for all participants during the whole race.

Leveling out the car performance

Especially in the DTM 1 where we had only a maximum BHP regulation the CLK had a big advantage by its weight and high downforce. We tried to fix that by adding a minimum weight rule and a maximum PP. This worked out quite well if you look at the results of DTM 2 till 4. Some cars were still faster but that was mainly caused by the (tuning) skills of the drivers

We only had one problem left with the CLK. The extra downforce allowed the driver to compensate the weight penalties during the season. That’s why we changed the BHP/weight combination to a PP only regulation and changed the success penalties to PP’s instead of extra weight. It would also create an infinite penalty system instead of the maximum extra weight of 80 kg.

I know I was one of the biggest supporters of this and I have to admit that it didn’t turned out the way I was expecting. It created tuners heaven!

Leveling out the drivers skills

When we started DTM 1 in last year’s February all participants were big GT5 addicts. Almost everyone was online all week and we had multiple practice sessions to get fully prepared for the races. During the seasons that devotion changed for some the driver (for all kinds of reasons) and to make it still interesting for the skilled and the lesser-skilled drivers the success penalty system was introduced.

I still doubt if the whole penalty system really made a big difference. The fast drivers just kept on winning and if I look at the tables, almost all champions still won the last races with the highest possible penalty. And if it did slow down the fastest drivers, it still didn’t make the race more interesting for the drivers at the bottom of the table.

Making the whole race interesting

With races of one hour to complete a lot can happen. And in the beginning it did. People made mistakes and/or got damaged and the race wasn’t won until you crossed the finish line. But as we all gained more driving skills there weren’t that much changes in positions anymore after the first battles had been won. Causing the second part of the race to be a bit boring and most of the drivers did drive their own race for almost half of the race.

That’s the main reason why the mandatory pit stops were introduced. Also because of the absence of tyre wear difference drivers where forced now to use all compounds. Although it sometimes did produce nice battles in the last part of the race it still wasn’t that exciting because they were mostly unequal as the cars were on different tyre compounds.

Making the whole season interesting

DTM 1 had 11 races and a Special Stage. It took 4 months to complete. Also the outage of the PSN network didn’t contribute to the fact that people started to lose interest to participate. So it was decided to make the seasons shorter. And to give the opportunity to still compete for the championship for people who missed some races it was decide (since DTM 4) that only the best 4 results (+SS) did count for the championship table.

It still didn’t prevent the problem that people just did not show up after a few races and leaving the series with far less participants than desirable.

So where do we go from here?

Let me repeat the mission statement:

Mission statement

To have a championship with clean and fair races in DTM cars with exciting competitive battles for all participants during the whole race.

I think we have come quite far in fulfilling this but when looking at the 2nd part of this sentence I think we’ll still not there yet. This month we will use the Tuesday evening sessions to sort that out with all kinds of test sessions.

I have a couple of things in mind to try out but all ideas are welcome!

To be continued…

 

[Green]

I was just thinking see if we went back to the DTM4 Rules would it help everyone if maybe I posted tunes for each car and track. Then hopefully goruk could do the same if he has the time and maybe also someone from the tuning section on GTP could get involved. Also anyone else that has the time to help, then we could compile a list of decent tunes for everyone to use.

I really don't think Stock cars is the way to go as the difference between M3 and CLK is alot. The only way I see stock cars working is if we all use the same car in each race which requires everyone having the correct cars and keeping them stock.

I'm actually starting a new job next week so next season I may not have much time myself. So I may not be able to put in the same amount of practice as I would normally do, so compiling a list of tunes before the season starts would probably help me also.


By DTM4 rules I mean the car regulations not the same race format


Also ment to say symp how does it feel to be the boss man , you feeling the pressure . Just kidding I'm sure you'll do a great job

 

[IMMORTALPILOT]

Lets make same Rules like last Sasion but we make 2 Short Races thats good.

 

[GT5_X2010]

I think we should allow headset communications so that when we end up on our own on the track wondering where everyone else is we can at least talk to each other. Driving the circuit at the back of the grid knowing you have no hope is boring. But doing that while laughing your head off talking about what is happening makes it all better. If people don't like headsets, simply mute the person.

If you want, I can try hosting. I have a very fast and very stable internet connection so would be ideal to host and it wouldn't impact race quality by having headsets on.

 

[Green]

Immortal your going to run out of space in your signature if you win any more series

Golfer you don't not want me shouting down the mic if someone hits me off the track or I make a mistake. Angry Scottish guy + mic = problems

 

[toyotsupra]

How about Dtm cars VS the Japanese touring cars and for the races i would recommend the same distance we were racing the other night with. And the tires i would allow any tires to be used for the race and qualifying let me know your thoughts on this? cheers

 

[GTP_J_Turner]

Great recap of the series Symp! 👍

 

[aBrick]

well, if there was Japanese gt500 cars it would just make a lot more problems tring to make the cars equal plus, it wouldn't be DTM.

I would suggest either using the same stock car for each race, or using the isf premium dtm car (ok so its just a concept) on stock, at least there would be an equal playing field.

 

[SymP]

Guys, I have created a survey to gather some info to decide how the next season will look like. Please fill out

THIS SURVEY​