Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship 2012

[homeforsummer]

Well sadly they pay the bills. At least Chris James has the courtesy not to get involved in taking out other drivers every race.

Not every race, but I recall he's been involved in a few. And the ones he hasn't been involved in he's been utterly crap. Which considering Newsham's typical position at the sharp end really suggests James shouldn't be running his mouth off so much.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Either that, or get in a better pay driver.

Who are the good pay drivers?
All I can think of is Neate and Griffin.
Yes Jordan has the talent and Pirteks backing, but he isn't moving.

 

[Liquid]

I thought Plato came 3rd?

A misprint on my behalf.

Who are the good pay drivers?
All I can think of is Neate and Griffin.
Yes Jordan has the talent and Pirteks backing, but he isn't moving.

I wouldn't class Neate as a 'good' pay driver. Someone who is not an MG battering ram would be a start.
(So that's Plato out then, aha (!))

 

[RobFocus]

I don't see the appeal of using twitter but it is brilliant entertainment after a BTCC weekend

On the subject of pay drivers - money talks, Neate facilitates Plato's drive and James facilitates Newsham's drive, etc... in a way I think "good on them", they've worked hard in their lives and they're doing something awesome with their money, but if it gets to the stage when they're dangerous... maybe they shouldn't be competing in professional motorsport

This was horrible

 

[Jimlaad43]

A misprint on my behalf.



I wouldn't class Neate as a 'good' pay driver. Someone who is not an MG battering ram would be a start.
(So that's Plato out then, aha (!))

What I should have said is that the only pay driver I could think of was Neate and Griffin. Compared to their rivals, they are not that good.

 

[Ardius]

Hmm, I think people are getting the "pay driver" term muddled up again.

The only drivers I consider real pay drivers are Neate and Griffin - that is to say that:
-they are only driving those cars due to their money and wouldn't have a seat on talent alone.

But really almost the entire grid has to bring cash or owns a large stake in the team:
-Rob Austin, Lea Wood, Dan Welch, Tony Hughes, Tony Gilham, Chris James, Frank Wrathall, Andrew Jordan and John Thorne all own or have family relations with their teams. So technically they are paying for the entire team.
-Will Bratt, Rob Collard, Tom Onslow-Cole, Mat Jackson, Aron Smith, Dave Newsham, Ollie Jackson, Adam Morgan, Paul O'Neill, etc all bring money to the team.

Only Plato, Neal and Shedden actually get paid to drive.

It seems a lot of people keep using the term "pay driver" to refer to anyone who brings money, but that applies to 99% of the drivers in motorsport.
Pay drivers are drivers that are terrible, that they are so terrible that clearly the only reason their teams picked them is for their money.

I wouldn't even consider Nick Foster or Jeff Smith "pay drivers" because they are very good (Foster) or decent (Smith). So to me the term "good pay driver" is impossible. If you are good, you are not a pay driver - clearly you are worth more than just your money.
Although having said that, Jeff Smith hasn't been stellar but he's generally kept his nose clean and had a few decent results. Much better driving than Griffin, James or Neate.

Now we're on this subject, how would everyone rate 2012's grid from best to worst?

For me:

1 Plato
2 Neal
3 Shedden
4 M.Jackson
5 Collard
6 Wrathall
7 Onslow-Cole
8 Newsham
9 O'Neill
10 Jordan
11 A.Smith
12 Austin
13 Welch
14 Gilham
15 Foster
16 Wood
17 O.Jackson
18 Bratt
19 J.Smith
20 Morgan
21 Fuller
22 Williamson
23 Hughes
24 Griffin
25 Stockton
26 Holland
27 Neate
28 James
29 Thorne

 

[Furinkazen]

A point. Chevrolet are not in WTCC as a works team next year. Soo.... this free's up Muller, Menu, and Huff in theory? Pipedream I know but even then...

 

[Liquid]

The WTCC is just terrible. But it has a higher rank over other TC series, so I doubt that the Supertouring reunion will happen anytime soon. They'll find other drives in the WTCC or move to GTs, I doubt they'll drop down to a national series and if they do, only to their own ones, like Rydell and Rustad have done with the STCC. So really, we could only expect Menu and Huff at a push, and that is very, very unlikely.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

Hmm, I think people are getting the "pay driver" term muddled up again.

The only drivers I consider real pay drivers are Neate and Griffin - that is to say that:
-they are only driving those cars due to their money and wouldn't have a seat on talent alone.

But really almost the entire grid has to bring cash or owns a large stake in the team:
-Rob Austin, Lea Wood, Dan Welch, Tony Hughes, Tony Gilham, Chris James, Frank Wrathall, Andrew Jordan and John Thorne all own or have family relations with their teams. So technically they are paying for the entire team.
-Will Bratt, Rob Collard, Tom Onslow-Cole, Mat Jackson, Aron Smith, Dave Newsham, Ollie Jackson, Adam Morgan, Paul O'Neill, etc all bring money to the team.

Only Plato, Neal and Shedden actually get paid to drive.

It seems a lot of people keep using the term "pay driver" to refer to anyone who brings money, but that applies to 99% of the drivers in motorsport.
Pay drivers are drivers that are terrible, that they are so terrible that clearly the only reason their teams picked them is for their money.

I wouldn't even consider Nick Foster or Jeff Smith "pay drivers" because they are very good (Foster) or decent (Smith). So to me the term "good pay driver" is impossible. If you are good, you are not a pay driver - clearly you are worth more than just your money.
Although having said that, Jeff Smith hasn't been stellar but he's generally kept his nose clean and had a few decent results. Much better driving than Griffin, James or Neate.

Now we're on this subject, how would everyone rate 2012's grid from best to worst?

For me:

1 Plato
2 Neal
3 Shedden
4 M.Jackson
5 Collard
6 Wrathall
7 Onslow-Cole
8 Newsham
9 O'Neill
10 Jordan
11 A.Smith
12 Austin
13 Welch
14 Gilham
15 Foster
16 Wood
17 O.Jackson
18 Bratt
19 J.Smith
20 Morgan
21 Fuller
22 Williamson
23 Hughes
24 Griffin
25 Stockton
26 Holland
27 Neate
28 James
29 Thorne

What do you mean? Season performance or how good a driver they are overall?

 

[Ardius]

As I understand it, none of Menu, Muller or Huff bring much in the way in budget and are all paid?
Unless RML do a u-turn and come back (they only stuck around thanks to Chevy in the first place..oh and Macdowall) I doubt any of them will come back to BTCC.

We need manufacturers to put in some cash if we want to see the big names back. But to be honest, I'm quite happy at the moment watching some drivers that would otherwise struggle to make an impression. I actually really enjoy the scraps we get between drivers like O'Neill, Foster, Austin, Wrathall, Newsham, etc.
We don't really need drivers like Muller coming back...though it was a lot of fun when he was around.

What do you mean? Season performance or how good a driver they are overall?

Just how you rate them, not just by 2012, but generally. (Hence me giving Stockton the benefit of the doubt and putting Thorne at the bottom).

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

wonder if this means aron's gf is single now

 

[Ardius]

She handled it better than Patrese's wife!

Or how about Dominic Littlewood with Damon Hill:

 

[Tom]

So what are the full works teams in the BTCC? There's Honda, MG, Ford. That's all I can think of, am I missing anyone? Long gone are the days of the 90's...

 

[Ardius]

So what are the full works teams in the BTCC? There's Honda, MG, Ford. That's all I can think of, am I missing anyone? Long gone are the days of the 90's...

Motorbase are not a works team by any means. They rely a lot on sponsorship and Griffin's money. All of their drivers have to bring cash.
I don't think Ford give them any money at all.

Toyota UK pay a little bit of money to the Toyota teams.

 

[homeforsummer]

She handled it better than Patrese's wife!

Or how about Dominic Littlewood with Damon Hill:

And less eventful than Steve Sutcliffe's passenger ride with Antonio Pizzonia at Barcelona...

On the subject of pay drivers - money talks, Neate facilitates Plato's drive and James facilitates Newsham's drive, etc... in a way I think "good on them", they've worked hard in their lives and they're doing something awesome with their money, but if it gets to the stage when they're dangerous... maybe they shouldn't be competing in professional motorsport

I appreciate that James can essentially do as he pleases with his money, I just object to two things:

1) He's utterly crap
2) His ego far, far outweighs his talent

The drivel he spews on twitter is a classic case of the mouth writing cheques the body can't cash.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

I appreciate that James can essentially do as he pleases with his money, I just object to two things:

1) He's utterly crap
2) His ego far, far outweighs his talent

The drivel he spews on twitter is a classic case of the mouth writing cheques the body can't cash.

BTCC isn't an elite racing series, so the fact that he's slow/"utterly crap" doesn't bother me at all. It's how he acts on twitter and supposedly in the paddock that makes me dislike him. Tony Hughes wasn't fast but he didn't act like an absolute bell end. No problem with that.

Rated based on consistency, outright pace and driving standards. Since I don't follow any of the series the drivers may have been in before BTCC, my judgement is based solely on the BTCC.

1 Matt Jackson
2 Plato
3 Shedden
4 Neal
5 Andrew Jordan
6 Newsham
7 O'Neill
8 Collard
9 Wrathall
10 Onslow-Cole
11 Austin
12 A.Smith
13 Wood
14 Foster
15 Welch
16 Morgan (Potential top 7 with improved consistency)
17 Gilham
18 J. Smith
19 Bratt
20 Neate (Horrendous driving standards, but somewhat fast)
21 Fuller
22 Ollie Jackson (Performance in 2012 was largely down to the poor car)
23 Williamson (Not much to go on)
24 Holland
25 Griffin
26 Hughes
27 Thorne
28 James
- Stockton - Never raced ?

 

[homeforsummer]

BTCC isn't an elite racing series, so the fact that he's slow/"utterly crap" doesn't bother me at all. It's how he acts on twitter and supposedly in the paddock that makes me dislike him. Tony Hughes wasn't fast but he didn't act like an absolute bell end. No problem with that.

If he was only slow it wouldn't be a problem. It's the fact he's slow yet still seems to have such a sense of entitlement that irritates me. If he had a modicum of talent his attitude would be easier to accept.

 

[RobFocus]

It seems a lot of people keep using the term "pay driver" to refer to anyone who brings money, but that applies to 99% of the drivers in motorsport.

When I've used the term 'pay driver' in this thread, I've referred to someone who was employed almost purely for their money, and not for a combination of money and talent

So what are the full works teams in the BTCC?.

MG and Honda are the two full works teams, but Dynojet carry Toyota sponsorship and I'm not sure about Thorney

It does irritate me how often the current BTCC is compared to the Supertouring era so much... especially when most people on the internet are only old enough to have seen the 10-minute highlights... of course that's going to be more exciting than watching a full race from 2012. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter if all the cars are independent entries, as long as the drivers are quality

 

[Liquid]

As an unashamed supertouring fanboy, I obviously have my preferences, but you just cannot compare the BTCC now to the 1990s. Anybody with sense knows that comparisons between the two eras hardly prove anything.

Despite the vastly different regulations and driving standards, I see more familiarities between today's BTCC and that of the 1980s, mainly due to the lack of works teams. There was works support during Group A, but seldom a fully fledged works team. Teams like Andy Rouse Engineering and Eggenberger Motorsport were semi-works, much like Toyota at the moment and entries like Rob Austin are a little bit reminiscent of Chris Hodgetts or Sean Walker. You can't even compare today's works teams with works teams of the 1990s; TWR and Williams Renault were the two most successful teams, helped by their Formula One experience.

Even if we might not like some of the drivers, it's brilliant for the championship to have a full grid and so many different models racing. Much better than the post-supertouring hangover in the gloomy days of BTC-spec racing during the early 2000s.

 

[Ardius]

I actually we think we've got a fairly good representation of what "BTCC" should mean this year.
While people like to dream about the golden years with the international drivers, manufacturers and huge teams - they weren't really BTCC then in my opinion. In the 90s, BTCC was almost the de facto WTCC considering its legacy since. It seems a lot of people internationally know about BTCC from that era, not just British people.

While of course I would love to see those days back, I'm also kind of glad we don't right now and the series is seemingly more open for new teams and drivers from junior series to make the step. I prefer it as a top British motorsport category giving local people the chance to show what they can do, rather than becoming an international series becoming too big for its boots.

Manufacturer involvement needs to be moderated right now to prevent budgets shooting up again.

I would of course prefer it if it was just a little bit cheaper or more sponsors were involved to give Turkington, Giovanardi, O'Neill, etc a drive. I don't like seeing talented drivers forced to the sidelines.
But nor do I dislike those with the cash actually being able to drive and prove themselves. While I miss Turkington and O'Neill, we've gained drivers like Wrathall and Austin for me to support.

 

[Liquid]

Are any more manufacturers considering a works entry in the future? Considering we have Proton, Volkswagen, BMW, Ford, Toyota, Audi, Honda, MG and Vauxhall on the grid at present, that's a healthy range of cars. Of course, this will change with the new NGTC rules for 2013.

It's a damn shame that Turkington and O'Neill aren't in the series. Turkington is a former champion! And Paul O'Neill is just a good driver with a real enthusiasm for motorsports; it's always nice to see him at a race meeting.

Edit: Probably already been mentioned, but I hear that the Formula Ford is returning to the support package this year. Excellent.

 

[Tired Tyres]

She handled it better than Patrese's wife!

Ooh. You are so wrong sir. Nobody, and I mean nobody has handled it better than Patrese's wife. That was truly hilarious youtube gold!

 

[Ardius]

Are any more manufacturers considering a works entry in the future? Considering we have Proton, Volkswagen, BMW, Ford, Toyota, Audi, Honda, MG and Vauxhall on the grid at present, that's a healthy range of cars. Of course, this will change with the new NGTC rules for 2013.

It's a damn shame that Turkington and O'Neill aren't in the series. Turkington is a former champion! And Paul O'Neill is just a good driver with a real enthusiasm for motorsports; it's always nice to see him at a race meeting.

Edit: Probably already been mentioned, but I hear that the Formula Ford is returning to the support package this year. Excellent.

Yeah, I can't wait to see the FFords back, I've really missed the Formula Renaults this year (though the classic car races we're fantastic!).

I really would love to see more of this on the TOCA package:

 

[RobFocus]

Despite the vastly different regulations and driving standards, I see more familiarities between today's BTCC and that of the 1980s

I've made that comparison recently as well... mainly because it's more about the drivers than the cars - a grid full of boost-balanced NGTCs is a little bit like a grid full of RS500s and M3s in a way. Even the spread of drivers is simliar, like you said

What I like about the current BTCC is the characters and the colourful grid of new and old cars, works and independent cars, FWD and RWD etc... Supertouring was awesome in its own way, but it seems sterile in comparison

 

[DK]

I appreciate that James can essentially do as he pleases with his money, I just object to two things:

1) He's utterly crap
2) His ego far, far outweighs his talent

3) His body far, far outweighs any other driver.

 

[Ardius]

There seems to be quite a bit of excitement around the US Grand Prix meet up for GTPlanet, maybe we should organise something for a BTCC event - seeing as its cheaper than F1 and paddock access is easier, etc?

 

[Liquid]

3) His body far, far outweighs any other driver.

Thank Christ Tim Harvey isn't still driving.

I'm positive he'd have had more race wins if he was a few stone lighter. On the 1998 season review, he's jokingly nicknamed Tim 'Tubby' Harvey.

There seems to be quite a bit of excitement around the US Grand Prix meet up for GTPlanet, maybe we should organise something for a BTCC event - seeing as its cheaper than F1 and paddock access is easier, etc?

That's a cracking idea, but it depends which circuits we could get to. You and I are closest to Oulton Park, for instance, but others probably not.

 

[Ardius]

I can make it to any of the tracks with enough planning. Some tracks don't have quite the paddock access of course too (Brands Hatch) and some I believe you have to pay extra? (Thruxton).

I think probably Oulton Park, Rockingham, Donington or Silverstone are the easiest places.

 

[Liquid]

Obviously nothing is formal at this stage, but if I think ahead I have my final exams next spring, which means I probably couldn't do anything until June onwards. Cost wise, I'd have to start saving up now if it's anywhere but Oulton. It's something I'd like to do, definitely.

But it depends on the amount of interest. Who else would be up for this?

 

[TyrrellRacing]

I'd be interested providing I'd learnt to drive by then.