Emissions scandals thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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Plus, there's the potentially permanent damage done to their brand. Now that the story has broken into mainstream news reports on UK television, everyone who takes even a cursory glance at the headlines will be aware of the scale of what VW has done. On top of that, we don't know the degree yet to which this affects other engines (the 3.0L V6 diesel as used by Audi and Porsche in their crossovers is under investigation), or indeed other VW's products in countries around the world, with European nations calling for investigations too. VW were already struggling in the US, and they can pretty much say goodbye to any hope of making any major inroads into that market.
To put it simply, this is serious already. There is a potential for this to become absolutely colossal, in terms of its impact on the company, its impact on its products, and potentially the car industry in general if this is discovered to be a trend.
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If it had only included the American sales, then it might have remained relatively small and harm the diesel in that market. With it including 11 million cars in total, this is likely to give the increasingly diesel-sceptic Eurozone the impetus it needs to get even more stringent.
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- catamount39
Thankfully, so at least Lambo and Ducati should be unaffected (capital/corporate wise).
If the issue extends to the 3.0L TDI that'd be another nail in the coffin for them. Worse it'll damage Audi and Porsche's reputations as well. Hopefully Audi didn't do the same as VW with their diesel engine.
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Very true as well. Diesel is growing to get an awful reputation in Europe, and this might just finish it off. I think the US has it right in focussing on emissions other than carbon dioxide, particularly because the drive for higher MPG and lower carbon dioxide emissions has driven us towards diesel over the course of the last ten years.
Now, governments are more worried about oxides of nitrogen and carbon monoxide in the atmosphere, so there'll be a swing back to petrol soon, I imagine. The governments of Europe have created more of an issue for themselves in terms of pollution thanks to forcing diesel on us.
Think about it this way - the way VW's diesel engine works is that it produces the desired result of high MPG and low carbon dioxide emissions, but only through allowing it to produce an outrageous amount of other pollutants, which is worrying.
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VW CEO Martin Winterkorn has resigned... here's his statement:
To paraphrase Dale Gribble from King Of The Hill, if ever I heard someone reading from a script, that was it...
To paraphrase Dale Gribble from King Of The Hill, if ever I heard someone reading from a script, that was it...
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Audi is a huge asset for VW, and probably the company within the group that would remain the strongest if it were separated. VW own 99+% of Audi, I guess they could generate A LOT of money by selling off a portion of Audi. Audi has had the luxury of not being beholden to shareholders as companies such as BMW are for quite a long time now. Ducati probably isn't worth much in comparison, but Lambo.. I dont know. Selling off a third of the Audi Group to the Arabs could help pay for this debacle.
VW, VW commercial vehicles, Audi, Skoda and SEAT likely all use the same tech at this level if they're on about 11,000,000 engines being affected. Also if you meant VAG to be Volkswagen Audi Group, I'm pretty sure such a thing doesn't exist, it's Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft.
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- catamount39
Wasn't his contract ending next week though anyway?
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Wasn't his contract ending next week though anyway?
He would probably get the option to renew that contract when it comes to expire.
The chance of that happening now is much slimmer...
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Apparently one of Europe's leading consumer rights groups is already suing Volkswagen and Fiat for misleading consumers over fuel efficiency data... note that at least one article on this subject is a year old...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f5595d7a-bcea-11e4-9902-00144feab7de.html#axzz3mZnTjgx8
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/makers-tricking-motorists-over-fuel-efficiency-288296.html
http://www.beuc.eu/great-fuel-consumption-scam
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f5595d7a-bcea-11e4-9902-00144feab7de.html#axzz3mZnTjgx8
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/makers-tricking-motorists-over-fuel-efficiency-288296.html
http://www.beuc.eu/great-fuel-consumption-scam
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- GTP_Stotty
Yes, it's serious, but there's too much at stake for the company to go under. The German Government aren't like the US Government... they might prosecute the senior management, but they will do everything they can to protect the core company and the people who work for it.
Not sure if it's 100% legit, but I read this morning that the BMW 3.0D and the Audi 3.0D engines have been tested and are compliant.
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The BMW X5 was tested alongside the VW engine during the initial investigation in the US. The X5 passed emissions testing.
It's worth pointing out that European emissions are easier to spoof than US emissions because the testing is more straightforward. The US tests cover a wide variety of loads, engine speeds, temperatures, and etcetera.
It will be much easier to design an engine that will legally spoof European tests... and which will only pollute more under conditions which differ from the testing. It is harder to do so with US tests. Which is why they needed to cheat on them, and why it is possible that even with the cheat device installed, VW's European cars will not fall afoul of any laws.
There's no guarantee that this is the case. And this is no guarantee VW didn't cheat similarly on European tests. Hell, a lot of the manufacturers cheat. Some of the "gaming" of the tests, loopholes closed under new EPA and SAE guidelines, is still legally possible in Europe. Third-party observers have been complaining about it for years.
One outcome of this scandal may be a review of EURO 6 emissions requirements and testing guidelines, to make sure manufacturers can't rely on lax requirements, anymore.
It's worth pointing out that European emissions are easier to spoof than US emissions because the testing is more straightforward. The US tests cover a wide variety of loads, engine speeds, temperatures, and etcetera.
It will be much easier to design an engine that will legally spoof European tests... and which will only pollute more under conditions which differ from the testing. It is harder to do so with US tests. Which is why they needed to cheat on them, and why it is possible that even with the cheat device installed, VW's European cars will not fall afoul of any laws.
There's no guarantee that this is the case. And this is no guarantee VW didn't cheat similarly on European tests. Hell, a lot of the manufacturers cheat. Some of the "gaming" of the tests, loopholes closed under new EPA and SAE guidelines, is still legally possible in Europe. Third-party observers have been complaining about it for years.
One outcome of this scandal may be a review of EURO 6 emissions requirements and testing guidelines, to make sure manufacturers can't rely on lax requirements, anymore.
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- catamount39
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- GTP_Stotty
They have no chance of getting anywhere with that.
The manufacturers aren't to blame for the completely unrealistic test process the EU use for the official numbers. And any business would try to optimise their product to get the best results. All manufacturers are as bad as each other in this regard.
Kinda expected that...especially since BMW have nothing to do with VW.
BMW own themselves, so...duh.
Given there are plenty of people speculating that other manufacturers might be doing similar things to VAG, I thought the inclusion of the BMW info was relevant to the discussion. Of course some people might not have the foresight to see that... duh
Edit... just saw this on another forum
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CodeRedR51
Premium
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Another point to everyone calling for, or expecting, massive fines from the US...
GM's fine for the ignition switch debacle that GM ignored and lied about for over 10 years before finally admitting was the cause of 124 deaths... $800m.
Where's the consistency if they fine VAG $18bn for emissions violations?
Is cheating a worse crime than cheating, lying and killing?
GM's fine for the ignition switch debacle that GM ignored and lied about for over 10 years before finally admitting was the cause of 124 deaths... $800m.
Where's the consistency if they fine VAG $18bn for emissions violations?
Is cheating a worse crime than cheating, lying and killing?
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The $18bn figure comes from the Clean Air Act that states that violators can be subject to fines of $37,500 per vehicle found to be non-compliant.
It's not a question of consistency, nor is there any basis for a comparison to cases that are fundamentally different.
It's not a question of consistency, nor is there any basis for a comparison to cases that are fundamentally different.
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- catamount39
The fine isn't like that...
^This
Should GM have bee fined more? Yes. Are these two comparable? No. (Don't get me wrong, the ignition issue on the G5 and Cobalt is horrific and they should have been fined more, not to mention its stupid it took them 10 years to get a hold on the issue). This is an entirely different situation, where a company broke Federal regulations (not to mention by a huge margin), lied to customers and as stated, the fine takes into account the Clean Air Act.
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Of course the cases are directly comparable.
Or are you saying killing people through direct negligence, knowing about the issue and ignoring it for over 10 years, lying about it, trying to avoid paying compensation, trying to claim the company is somehow a different company now so shouldn't be responsible is somehow less serious because there isn't a specific federal law that say you can't do that?
Hilarious
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- catamount39
For one thing a lot of a people who were responsible for the issue had already been fired. But no...it isn't less serious. The fine for the emissions testing cheating is structured different. The GM issue was a seriously bad thing, nobody would argue with that. I'm just saying that the way the fine for VW is different. One case was of a part failure and company stupidity, one case is of false advertisement and fraud. The fine for GM SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE, but this fine works off of average price per car plus breaking the Clean Air Act.Of course the cases are directly comparable.
Or are you saying killing people through direct negligence, knowing about the issue and ignoring it for over 10 years, lying about it, trying to avoid paying compensation, trying to claim the company is somehow a different company now so shouldn't be responsible is somehow less serious because there isn't a specific federal law that say you can't do that?
Hilarious
CodeRedR51
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I think the point here is that penalty structure for vehicle issues that actually kill drivers/passengers needs to be looked at and revised.
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I agree with that fully. That defiantly should be scaled up more.
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Here is the ICCT West Virginia University report that started it:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf
Here is a followup report with more vehicles tested:
http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf
Interesting read, nice explanation of the different NOx reduction techniques.
What baffles me is that they are over a year old, why didn't anyone at VW notice they are about to be caught in the act?
http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf
Here is a followup report with more vehicles tested:
http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf
Interesting read, nice explanation of the different NOx reduction techniques.
What baffles me is that they are over a year old, why didn't anyone at VW notice they are about to be caught in the act?
