- 17,158
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VW will recover. So much of the group depends on each other, Porsche could just end up buying a larger share, or perhaps VW could sell Audi to Porsche to raise the money for fines!
Emissions scandals thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
- 634 comments
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- 17,158
- United Kingdom
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,305
- United States
Too soon?
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
Actually....as a railfan....it's true....because that's just when they're running sand through the flus to get the soot out.
Too soon?
#CleanSteamSuckas
- 966
You're a little behind on history. Porsche tried to buy VW over several years but things kept getting worse and more desperate as Porsche took on a lot of debt in an effort to take over VW. It was just on the verge of getting a 75% of VW and access to VW's cash reserve, but then it fell apart. The 2008 crisis hit, Porsche couldn't get the government to allow it to get the 75% stake at a time when the company had to pay some of its creditors (the banks were no longer willing to roll over financing) and had no cash of its own. And you know who had cash and political clout? VW. So, VW now owns Porsche. http://priceonomics.com/porsche-the-hedge-fund-that-also-made-cars/
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- 23,800
- Philippines
When I first heard about it, I had a sneaking suspicion it had to do with NOx emissions. US NOx emissions standards are notoriously strict, and VAG stratified injection strategies (used on their gasoline cars) fall afoul of them.
I figure that VW wanted to maintain their real world economy, so the engine would go back into standard lean burn when on the road.
Great time to buy VW stock. But better probably to wait until after the Congressional hearings.
I figure that VW wanted to maintain their real world economy, so the engine would go back into standard lean burn when on the road.
Great time to buy VW stock. But better probably to wait until after the Congressional hearings.
- 29,262
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
VW have stated that some 11 million cars are affected and presumably will need to be recalled and/or modified.
Meanwhile, at the time of writing, VW shares have lost 40% of their value since this time last week.
Meanwhile, at the time of writing, VW shares have lost 40% of their value since this time last week.
Robin
Premium
- 16,799
- United Kingdom
In addition to the government there are civil cases starting against VW. Already owners are lining up complaining that the bought their cars specifically due to economical or environmental reasons and want VW to buy the cars back... they don't even want a replacement.
I hardly think VW has been the only ones doing this and can imagine this could blow up into something HUGE if others are found guilty. I think the run of booming new cars sales could be over.
I hardly think VW has been the only ones doing this and can imagine this could blow up into something HUGE if others are found guilty. I think the run of booming new cars sales could be over.
- 29,826
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Has it not been said that it's actually more economical to keep an older car on the road than scrapping it and buying a new one?
If Volkswagen is the first and we see a domino effect, this could indeed be the end of booming new car sales.
If Volkswagen is the first and we see a domino effect, this could indeed be the end of booming new car sales.
- 10,824
- Plymouth, UK
- motorforum
Holy heck! 11 million cars is insane.
If at least one other European brand is found to be doing this in the EU market, then I think that'll be the death of diesel, especially with the likes of the French government wanting to move away from diesel power.
Thinking about this more, if the car guesses when it's on an official test, would this device kick in during regular driving when the turbo isn't up to speed?
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- 8,432
- Rockay City
Allegedly Winterkorn is already on his way out and to be replaced by Müller (though no official statement yet): http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtscha...artin-winterkorn-wird-abgeloest/12351882.html
- 4,774
- Hope Mills, NC
- GTP_Dylan_GTP
But wait, If porsche is a division of VW, Wouldn't the mean that VW would be buying a share of itself. and if they sold audi to porsche, wouldn't that just be selling itself to itself? I'm confused...
- 8,432
- Rockay City
Shocked that they were caught (like VW) or shocked that they were fiddling?
That said, I don't think this will be limited to VW. It was pretty much a public secret that cars like BMW/Merc etc. have software able to detect the EPA (or in EU: ECE) cycles, but also dyno testing (to pump up the numbers), etc.?
- 23,800
- Philippines
Supposedly an X5 was tested by the same group that raised alarms on the VAG engines, and passed.
BMW has actually used dyno detection algorithms in the past to cut power on the M3 to prevent damage to the engine.
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I'm not shocked that someone has been gaming the system. Like I said, it's pretty much an open secret that manufacturers have been gaming European testing for a while now. The question is how many more will get caught up as everyone rushes to do independent testing.
I'm just shocked at how huge the difference is for the VWs. That 2.0 is a great engine in terms of economy and power... and I'm pretty certain any software fix that will address this issue will have a massive effect on both of those factors. Owners will not be happy with the results of any upcoming recall.
BMW has actually used dyno detection algorithms in the past to cut power on the M3 to prevent damage to the engine.
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I'm not shocked that someone has been gaming the system. Like I said, it's pretty much an open secret that manufacturers have been gaming European testing for a while now. The question is how many more will get caught up as everyone rushes to do independent testing.
I'm just shocked at how huge the difference is for the VWs. That 2.0 is a great engine in terms of economy and power... and I'm pretty certain any software fix that will address this issue will have a massive effect on both of those factors. Owners will not be happy with the results of any upcoming recall.
- 8,945
- F1 chimp land
- AnotherStory
- 966
While gaming the system has been common, what VW did is brazen, and I'd be surprised if anyone else has had the gall to pull something quite like this. For instance, VW claimed to have developed a diesel engine that met or exceeded EPA requirements without the need for AdBlue, was very efficient and still had pretty impressive performance, something no one else seemed able to do. Then they put a massive marketing campaign behind it. But now it turns out it they were just cheating, and not kind of cheating, either, but using software to reduce NOx by 10 to 40 times when tested. So I don't think anyone else was that crazy, but then again I wouldn't have thought VW would be, either.
But for what happens now, my guess is in the short term VW gets together its cash reserves and meets with all its creditors to make sure it has the money to pay all the fines and legal fees it's going to get. It'll also likely have to do a whole lot of cooperation and make deals with various attorney generals to survive. Now if this were 2008 during the auto and credit crisis VW would be in even greater jeopardy, but this is a different time. It may have to sell some brands or at least put them up for collateral (I'm thinking the likes of Ducati, SEAT and Skoda, not Audi and Porsche). I suspect its motorsports efforts will be at least drastically cut for a while (maybe next year's Le Mans will be an LMP1 battle between Toyota and Nissan). And VW will likely have a lot of upper management changes and possibly emerge as a much-more-cooperative-with-government-organizations company, kind of like the new GM (okay. at least in appearance). Perhaps more importantly, however, is that the inroads diesel has made into mainstream passenger vehicles in the US will likely be destroyed. It may go back to what it was in the late 80s/early 90s, a fuel used for commercial vehicles, dually pickups and a few oddballs.
But for what happens now, my guess is in the short term VW gets together its cash reserves and meets with all its creditors to make sure it has the money to pay all the fines and legal fees it's going to get. It'll also likely have to do a whole lot of cooperation and make deals with various attorney generals to survive. Now if this were 2008 during the auto and credit crisis VW would be in even greater jeopardy, but this is a different time. It may have to sell some brands or at least put them up for collateral (I'm thinking the likes of Ducati, SEAT and Skoda, not Audi and Porsche). I suspect its motorsports efforts will be at least drastically cut for a while (maybe next year's Le Mans will be an LMP1 battle between Toyota and Nissan). And VW will likely have a lot of upper management changes and possibly emerge as a much-more-cooperative-with-government-organizations company, kind of like the new GM (okay. at least in appearance). Perhaps more importantly, however, is that the inroads diesel has made into mainstream passenger vehicles in the US will likely be destroyed. It may go back to what it was in the late 80s/early 90s, a fuel used for commercial vehicles, dually pickups and a few oddballs.
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- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Pretty much spot on IMO 👍
Only comment I'd add is to say I doubt they'll need to sell any brands to cover the potential costs unless it gets to the stage where they have to start refunding customers or giving them new cars.
VAG made almost €15bn profit BT in 2014 (€11bn AT), and had €19bn of cash on their balance sheet, so they are very secure financially.
Plus they are unlikely to come under pressure from share holders in the short-term. 87% of their stock is held by only 3 investors - 50% is owned by a holding company set up after the failed acquisition by Porsche and the group itself controls 100% of that stocks voting rights. 20% is owned by the German Government. 17% is owned by the Qatar Government.
And with over 500k employees the German Government will do whatever it takes to protect those jobs.
- 156
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Insert something something lance Armstrong joke.... something something 90's Toyota rally team designers joke....
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
VW is setting aside 7B for the problem (they make 12B per year). There are 11 million cars affected, which puts the fix at less than $1000 per car. I think they'll need $5000 per car, which would be $55B, which is almost 5 years of profit. This company could go under.
- 9,089
- Scotland
Is there a detailed report on this as I'm wondering if it's the map that limits the cars to something like 3000rpm when stationary.
I remember when my friend bought a load of new skodas one of his drivers complained that it wouldn't Rev over 3000rpm when stationary to which my friend replied why the 🤬 are you reving it over 3k when it's not moving
Interesting rumour on who chopped them in if its true too.
I remember when my friend bought a load of new skodas one of his drivers complained that it wouldn't Rev over 3000rpm when stationary to which my friend replied why the 🤬 are you reving it over 3k when it's not moving
Interesting rumour on who chopped them in if its true too.
