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They did that's why they tried to recall cars at the start of the year and not tell anyone why.
Well Piech wanted rid of him and what a way to do it.
Emissions scandals thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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Well Piech wanted rid of him and what a way to do it.
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Yes, just read about that too, apparently they recalled 500.000 cars and even did a software update -- Epic Fail™.
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No one is in fact saying anything like that. Just pointing out that there is no inconsistency between the damages levied in a wrongful case/negligence case already on the books and napkin math about theoretical fines a different automaker could (but obviously won't) receive for knowingly breaking a completely different set of laws.
Robin
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But polluted air from these illegal cars HAS killed untold thousands and has consigned many more to a future with an appalling environment. I think the scope for damage (and therefore punishment) is far higher when it goes beyond simply effecting the individual car and its occupants.
The Deep Water Horizon incident only killed 11 rig workers... yet look how many lives the incident ruined from environmental damage. The fine was $18.7 Billion.
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I think the critical difference here lies in the fact that this is a clear cut case of a deception as opposed to a mere cover up of a blunder - there's criminality at the very core of what has happened here, and the gravity of the offense doesn't just lie with the absolute amount of extra pollutants in the atmosphere as a result, but in the flagrant disregard for the law as well as the massive commercial gains being made on the back of it. That sets this case aside from comparable cases IMO.
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I wonder how much more pollution tax there will be put on a VAG diesel if this spreads to Europe.
On a side note.
I wonder if they now also will check the big rigs, as Scania is part of VAG. If there is a problem there also....
On a side note.
I wonder if they now also will check the big rigs, as Scania is part of VAG. If there is a problem there also....
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This is untrue. You only die as a direct cause from diesel powered engines unless you're sealed in a room filtered with nothing but the exhaust of one.
Otherwise, I'd be dead by now with the exposure I've gone through.
Source
I also don't believe in the numbers we are seeing right now. GM in the long run will pay far more in the civil courts for those who did not settle, and VW will pay but probably not to the extent that GM will have totaled.
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- GTP_Stotty
Get some perspective. This is 500k passenger cars out of over 250 million cars on American roads, a lot of which will be old and pollute a lot more than the VAG cars. And the VAG cars will cause a fraction of the pollution that the 1'000's of HGV's running round the US cause.
How many Americans will be indignant at this whilst running round in 3,000kg+ V8 pick ups or SUV's?
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Sorry, but what planet are you guys living on?
Classifying what GM did as a 'blunder' is just hilarious.
They knew they had a problem for over 10 years. They chose to do nothing about it. Over 100 people died as a result. That's not a blunder. That's murder, or at best manslaughter.
How many GM execs have been prosecuted or went to jail for murdering people?
No comparison.
Robin
Premium
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Obviously I'm not talking about keeling over instantly as a VW passes you in the street
I'm talking about life long exposure adding particulates to your lungs contributing to an early death and it's proven that thousands have died from car emissions.I wasn't just talking about the US, what about Europe where half of the cars are diesels and VW's make up a huge proportion of that. Although we don't know yet if EU models are affected I'm pretty sure they would have the same device fitted. So there is a likely sizeable impact.
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As Stotty pointed out, you'd have a hard time proving NOx from VW's was what killed someone out of the total NOx someone may inhale over their life time.
The US regulations I believe are stricter than we have here in the UK/Europe, and we have a lot more diesel cars... if the cars aren't US compliant without a Urea system, but are Euro compliant without one, what does that tell you?
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The test in Europe is a joke, and all manufacturers manipulate (sorry, optimise
) their cars to get the headline results. The actual results are effectively irrelevant.Guess I'm just incredulous that anyone could call what GM did a 'blunder', and consider it a lesser offense to VAG's
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Yeh, considering it a lesser offense is certainly not right - to clarify, what I meant by 'blunder' is that the original problem stemmed from something that had no ill intent, but the resulting handling of the situation seems to be criminally negligent, but I can't say I know too much about that situation.Guess I'm just incredulous that anyone could call what GM did a 'blunder', and consider it a lesser offense to VAG's
Are the possible financial implications for VAG fair in comparison? All I would say to that is that no-one knows yet how much VAG will end up having to pay - probably nothing like the $18bn that is possible under the law, but that is probably the least of their worries. Similarly, the GM case is still on-going, so who knows what will end up coming from it.
But the fact remains that comparisons between the two cases can only go so far, and arguing about which is worse is pretty hard since they are fundamentally different in nature.
Robin
Premium
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It's literally EVERYWHERE right now...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...responsible-for-50000-premature-10513845.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11883416/vw-scandal-emission-target-death-rate.html
I never said VW cars specifically, I said car emissions in general of which VW cars will have definitely contributed to, seemingly more than others. All cars contribute to killing people... but the illegal ones kill more.
That the EU tests are stupid, it's reported the 9/10 Diesel's don't meet emission regulations in the real world despite passing the EU test. I am willing to bet the device also fitted to the EU models just for the hell of it because production differences would add cost (they already have to add the other US specific stuff like side lights).
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So if those are 100% right...then this becomes fraud + cheating + corporate involuntary homicide/manslaughter....
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- GTP_Stotty
Agreed 👍
I'm playing devils advocate to a small extent, primarily to try to balance some of the more catastrophic outcomes some posters seem to believe will become reality.
I'm no supporter of Corporate fraud in whatever shape it comes in.
Agree... so far
The similarities lie in a big organisation trying to cover up their actions, and the extent they will go to to achieve this.
VAG clearly set out with bad intentions, but this is balanced by the effect of the crime being less, and GM doing more to avoid taking responsibility. Both are wrong.
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lol, comparing to the black plague? Really? A disease (finite only because it's non-existent now) that wiped off almost affected almost a quarter of humanity?
The image with the clouds is quite cute too. If it's a known fact that almost all major European auto's are breaking the law, why is it just now that they're focusing on VW?
And claiming facts from WHO doesn't justify the opinion at all. Look at all of Asia first, and then tell me that the UK needs to be in fear...
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In the context of the thread, you'll have to forgive be for assuming you meant these illegal VW's.. as opposed to... ummm?
Anyway,
I'd agree that testing in general is too open to manipulation. But just to lay things out as I understand them, the defeat device is not actually a "device", it's just in the software, and it would appear to have been very specifically coded to get round US/California testing - if it doesn't kick in during Euro tests it's pretty much irrelevant in Europe, in actual terms - it just means our regulations are allowings to be poisoned, rather than the actions of VW.
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Just so you know...
VW AG are not the only manufacturer implicated in this now. Two separate bodies are claiming they have evidence of other manufacturers either gaming the European tests or running test-specific maps. These include Daimler, BMW, Porsche, Ford and Opel. And by random coincidence, the boss of Vauxhall quit this morning too.
It's worth a note that NOx limits in Europe have fallen from 500mg/km to 80mg/km in 13 years. Atmospheric NOx has risen in that time despite this and independent reports for the last two years have suggested that there has been no actual reduction in NOx output in cars.
For reference, it's estimated that 30,000 deaths occur due to pollution every year in the UK and more than two thirds of this is due to diesel. A number is hard to plot, but it has been estimated that this number would have fallen by around 12,000 had cars been meeting NOx targets in the real world. 50k a year alone is a bit far fetched, but a total of 50k over the last 15 years is not.
VW AG are not the only manufacturer implicated in this now. Two separate bodies are claiming they have evidence of other manufacturers either gaming the European tests or running test-specific maps. These include Daimler, BMW, Porsche, Ford and Opel. And by random coincidence, the boss of Vauxhall quit this morning too.
It's worth a note that NOx limits in Europe have fallen from 500mg/km to 80mg/km in 13 years. Atmospheric NOx has risen in that time despite this and independent reports for the last two years have suggested that there has been no actual reduction in NOx output in cars.
For reference, it's estimated that 30,000 deaths occur due to pollution every year in the UK and more than two thirds of this is due to diesel. A number is hard to plot, but it has been estimated that this number would have fallen by around 12,000 had cars been meeting NOx targets in the real world. 50k a year alone is a bit far fetched, but a total of 50k over the last 15 years is not.
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Who said that? GM took a 900 million deferred prosecutor agreement to avoid a long trial which the Justice Department is still actually pursuing loose ends on. They initially blew a few billion on recalling nearly every car that made in the past ten years, set aside an initial 625 million dollars for a fund to compensate victims, then another 525 million a few months later, and are still fighting countless court cases across the country over it. Was the fine too low? Yeah, I'd certainly say so when Toyota was nabbed for 1.2 billion when the NTHSA couldn't actually find what Toyota was saying to actually be lying, but it wouldn't really surprise me if the Justice Department spent another ten years investigating who exactly screwed up in that case amongst all of the other corporate wide incompetence that permeated the company to its very core and still not find anyone to charge specifically; and they couldn't really come too hard on a company that the US government had up to that point acted like it was a separate company from the former GM.and consider it a lesser offense to VAG's
In comparison, VW broke a law that very deliberately specified a set fine to the tune 37 grand and change, and allegedly broke it and deliberately profited from breaking it hundreds of thousands of times. That's a potential fine levied before any investigations into what VW actually did to circumvent emissions testing which is only big because of how over the top VW violated it rather than how serious it is. 18 billion dollars is a pretty big number to stick in your headline on a slow news day, but there's no way in hell VW will pay 18 billion so it's irrelevant, and it has nothing to do to begin with with whatever fines the Justice Department ends up levying them if they pursue criminal charges.
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This. People are running a muck claiming similar numbers to your post as annual totals. The Independent post from Robin is a good example. It's pretty much the same crap Daily is putting out, but seeming to be more 'sensible' (yet it's far from it).
There's a lot more than just gas (no pun intended) that has boosted the VAG group.. Together they have quite possibly the most achievable records in motorsports in the shortest span of time compared to anyone else.This whole scandal reeks of finding out your poor old lonely Aunt Mable drop-kicked Uncle Bill off a balcony! Seriously disappointed in Volkswagen; but then I should have known better than to trust a company who has their origins in a man with a Cyclone B fetish!
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Which reminds me.. I think I know what Audi's Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich's opinion was of Winterkorn.. "Schieb ihn raus"
No doubt. But they've lost all credibility to me by lying about emissions; as will any other manufacturers who turn out to have done so. It doesn't really matter how unachievable the emissions targets set by governments may have been; lying about it is the wrong way to deal with it.
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