Engine didnt last forever

[RacinLei]

@MGR

yes you are right in the case of speed i know that to. I still feel the pain of changing disk load car change disk and drive with it 😫

But in general we would end up with a mutch better version if they had only ps5 in mind insted of trying to sqeeze to much out of min 8 yeahr old grafik engine.

Reflections in cockpitview still update only in 30 fps, trackdetail compare to gtsport in kyoto dialed back etc

And sometimes its the little details like widebody an Subaru chassie over and over again instead of the car you are using 😉

Hahaha, a certain type of OCD player now has to buy 1 extra car of each type to keep it it in mint condition. Wicked game 😂

Or you rent 1 🤣

 

[C_Raccoon23]

The engine wear mechanic doesn’t bother me because I highly doubt I’ll ever put so many miles on a single car that the permanent loss in HP becomes an issue. Not to mention it’s disabled in Sport mode as well.

 

[Jeff Goji]

I've destroyed a couple of transmissions and a couple of engines over the years through track use and daily driving.
I've felt the slow and gradual power loss over time through hard use. And it suuuuuuuuucks!
Nothing fun or enoyable about it, it feels terrible and you know you're about to be popping for an engine as you don't have an unlimited racing budget and you do this for fun.
I shouldn't have to worry about the ultra rare engine on my Porsche GT1 wearing out in a video game. I should be able to drive and enjoy it. Because it is a video game.

But GT7 is not about real life. It's about Kaz painting an emotional experience, and that "raw racing emotion" (think Takumi destroying the AE86's engine in Initial D and Bunta just happened to have a race engine waiting to go.)

The problem is that while video games should have emotional impact, I should not have to spend precious credits in an already messed up economy to replace digital parts that should just plain work all the time.
Also a 1 to 5 hp loss is just enough to make the most obsessive out of us spend those credits without impacting game play to an extreme extent, but its just enough to cause doubt and make you heavily consider replacing that engine.

I don't care for the "tamagotchi" level of care these digital cars need with the wash/oil change mechanics either. I get it, I know what they are going for, I just don't want or need it.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

Has anyone ever thought about testing engine wear with an automatic gearbox vs. a manual gearbox?

I was considering how with a manual gearbox, if you downshift too soon (i.e. you've just hit the brakes and shift down before the car slows down), you can often hear the engine hitting the rev limiter, in real life this would be quite bad for the engine. In an automatic it doesn't do this, as the automatic only shifts down when your speed drops below a point that your current gear will be able to drive easily/efficiently.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Has anyone checked to see if this 1hp decrease actually affects the performance of the vehicle? Because to the best of my abilities I can’t see that it does. It doesn’t change any of the specs on the car settings screen aside from the hp and torque numbers, nothing else changes (most importantly the acceleration times) nor does it make the car any noticeable amount slower when driving around the longest track in the game, Special Stage Route X, at least according to the lap timer. No one is perfectly consistent in regards to lap times from lap to lap, day to day, so I’m willing to bet if it has any affect at all it’s in the thousandths of a second range and will thus only impact the top .1% of players in .1% of their races.

 

[Rotherbach K]

Hi,

Maybe if you do a perfect lap - it might be measurable. Bit I think, most players are not that constant in their driving.

But in competition it seems to be out of the calculation - so nothing to worry about too much.

BR R.

 

[Will Once]

If they put a feature in, some people will complain and say it's not necessary. If they take a feature out, some people will complain and say they liked it.

As the game currently stands, engine wear is so tiny that it's not worth worrying about.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Hi,

Maybe if you do a perfect lap - it might be measurable. Bit I think, most players are not that constant in their driving.

But in competition it seems to be out of the calculation - so nothing to worry about too much.

BR R.

Exactly.

 

[Techlet]

As the game currently stands, engine wear is so tiny that it's not worth worrying about.

Why even implement a feature that doesn't do anything?

Even the car wash has at least a visual element...

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Why even implement a feature that doesn't do anything?

Even the car wash has at least a visual element...

It is a semblance, albeit a bad one, of real life. Engines wear and lose power over time. Oil needs changed. Race cars need washed for proper cooling, air flow etc.
PD has a tendency to implement things into the game that aren’t fully functional or built out (for whatever reason) and then eventually get around to making them work as intended, or sometimes just leave them as is for whatever reason. For all we know update 1.20 might increase wear rates and actually affect performance of cars.

 

[Will Once]

Why even implement a feature that doesn't do anything?

Even the car wash has at least a visual element...

It does do something. The best games make us think about trade-offs. In shooting games - do we use our best weapons all the time or do we save ammo for a future boss fight? In racing games, do we use our favourite car in every race or have to think about saving saving the engine? In an individual race, do we use racing hard tyres or racing mediums? Save fuel or pit more often?

Okay, so engine wear is tiny at the moment, but they have included the mechanism so they can use it at some point in the future if they need to. And they have got us talking about it, which is precisely what they want.

 

[Techlet]

It does do something. The best games make us think about trade-offs. In shooting games - do we use our best weapons all the time or do we save ammo for a future boss fight? In racing games, do we use our favourite car in every race or have to think about saving saving the engine? In an individual race, do we use racing hard tyres or racing mediums? Save fuel or pit more often?

Okay, so engine wear is tiny at the moment, but they have included the mechanism so they can use it at some point in the future if they need to. And they have got us talking about it, which is precisely what they want.

In what mainstream shooting game does your gun permanently degrade over time? Bullets are consumables, the gun itself isn't. In RPGs with item degradation/damage, there's always a way to repair it back to 100% without needing to buy/farm another copy of that item.

In what other racing game does your car permanently degrade? Seems only in GT7 do cars (that you can spend real money to buy) lose performance permanently and have to be replaced on the regular. There's no "trade-off." There's no way to avoid or mitigate the permanent loss in performance. The choice in this driving simulator is just between driving your favourite car or parking it in the garage.

 

[Samus]

In racing games, do we use our favourite car in every race or have to think about saving saving the engine?

Er, in every game that isn't Gran Turismo, the first one. Because other games recognise that they're games made for fun and engine degradation isn't fun.

 

[Will Once]

In what mainstream shooting game does your gun permanently degrade over time? Bullets are consumables, the gun itself isn't. In RPGs with item degradation/damage, there's always a way to repair it back to 100% without needing to buy/farm another copy of that item.

In what other racing game does your car permanently degrade? Seems only in GT7 do cars (that you can spend real money to buy) lose performance permanently and have to be replaced on the regular. There's no "trade-off." There's no way to avoid or mitigate the permanent loss in performance. The choice in this driving simulator is just between driving your favourite car or parking it in the garage.

So you want a game that copies every other game and doesn't introduce anything novel?

The point is that nearly all games give you choices and consequences. In GT7 if you don't want your engine to degrade, you can change the oil promptly and not use one car all the time. Or you can ignore the oil change and stick to just one car.

As I said, choices and consequences.

The game is trying to push you to try different cars and not do repetitive grinds. It is giving you the chance to get attached to a car and want to look after it.

 

[Techlet]

So you want a game that copies every other game and doesn't introduce anything novel?

The point is that nearly all games give you choices and consequences. In GT7 if you don't want your engine to degrade, you can change the oil promptly and not use one car all the time. Or you can ignore the oil change and stick to just one car.

As I said, choices and consequences.

The game is trying to push you to try different cars and not do repetitive grinds. It is giving you the chance to get attached to a car and want to look after it.

There's a difference between innovation and cramming in pointless features that are inherently anti-fun. Features that were perhaps harmless in older games in the series but now that MTX is involved?

Oil changes make no difference. Once you hit enough miles, the engine is permanently worse. Past that point, none of the maintenance buttons do a thing. You're just stuck with a degraded engine. The only way to "look after" a car that you're attached to is by not using it. How is that a good gameplay choice in a game about driving cars?

 

[Samus]

It is giving you the chance to get attached to a car and want to look after it.

But you can't. That's the whole point. You can't replace the engine in many cars. You have to buy a whole new car. That's the exact opposite of getting attached and looking after it.

 

[Rotherbach K]

Hi,

There are also RPGs with permadeath and permanently broken weapons.

But this discussion is in general pointless - this feature is there and if you (or others, or a group) don't bring up arguments to change PDs or Kaz' ideas - what will happen? Nothing is my best bet on it.

And I don't think that you have a great argument with - replacing is impossible, hard or a big burden. Let's consider you use one of the 20M cars - to get it you need to run about 21x Sardegna or 20x Tokyo. - for Sardegna ist 1610 km - so you can do this 12.5x before you need to replace the 20M car with itself. If you really use the car that often - the credits you will get from that automatically will pay off the car again. The only exception would be - you lap the car 20.000 km on lap time for your personal training - bit I think this rather unlikely to happen.

And then one also must be aware - this difference of 1 HP might just be a rounding error.

Don't you think much addo bout nothing?!

I am sure most people will not notice this

 

[Will Once]

There's a difference between innovation and cramming in pointless features that are inherently anti-fun. Features that were perhaps harmless in older games in the series but now that MTX is involved?

Oil changes make no difference. Once you hit enough miles, the engine is permanently worse. Past that point, none of the maintenance buttons do a thing. You're just stuck with a degraded engine. The only way to "look after" a car that you're attached to is by not using it. How is that a good gameplay choice in a game about driving cars?

There has been a debate about fun vs realism since the very beginning of computer gaming. You find this anti-fun. Someone else will say that it contributes to realism. Both points of view are valid.

PD would argue that engine wear pushes players away from grinding over and over with the same car and towards trying lots of different cars. Is that fun or not fun? Depends on your point of view. Personally, I can see both sides of the argument and can't get too excited about it either way. It is the way it is.

 

[Techlet]

And I don't think that you have a great argument with - replacing is impossible, hard or a big burden. Let's consider you use one of the 20M cars - to get it you need to run about 21x Sardegna or 20x Tokyo. - for Sardegna ist 1610 km - so you can do this 12.5x before you need to replace the 20M car with itself. If you really use the car that often - the credits you will get from that automatically will pay off the car again.

Not all cars can be rebought. Once you hit 20Ks on the RX Vision Stealth car, it's done.

Of course, trust PD to implement a feature that can be passed off as a rounding error that nobody will notice.

It's illogical why they won't enable the option to just buy a new engine and chassis for every car available in the game, especially the race cars where engine replacements are frequent in real life...

 

[Rotherbach K]

Hi,

We don't need to discuss that this is illogical and also pointless. You are right for the pure sake of the argument and words. But what is the follow up - PD either gives you more engine options or they don't do this.

And as far as I know - your example is not different in terms of performance to the buyable GR3 or GR4 car - it is just a special design. So for the game and it's playability not essential.

But on this base, you can ask why EA doesn't offer every legendary player card to everyone, why there are more and less rare cards in trading card games and so on. You might even go so far to ask governments, why they spent money on stuff you don't like from taxes you had to pay. On the opposite - if you decide to paint your room pink - this is also your decision.

Decision must be made, some decisions are made even if there is no necessity for them - but the result is - it is there.

You have three options - accept it, because it it not worth opposing it - try to find enough people annoyed by it that PDs/Sonys Customer Service think it is relevant to push game designers or quit playing.

But I think - this issue isn't worth either third, nor really second option.

 

[Scaff]

You have three options - accept it, because it it not worth opposing it - try to find enough people annoyed by it that PDs/Sonys Customer Service think it is relevant to push game designers or quit playing.

Or we can discuss and debate it, on a discussion forum, like GT Planet!

I like this forth option, let's do that.

 

[Rotherbach K]

Hi,

That's what we do - but who except us as participants cares about it? So no improvement to be expected.

So there is - usually - no consequences from it. And if you are unlucky - people will flame you additionally.

 

[Scaff]

Hi,

That's what we do - but who except us as participants cares about it? So no improvement to be expected.

No, you engaged in 'whataboutism' and then basically told people it was pointless doing so, if fact you went as far as to say parts of it weren't worth talking about.

So there is - usually - no consequences from it. And if you are unlucky - people will flame you additionally.

Not if they want to remain members of GT Planet.

 

[Techlet]

I mean, do people actually like that their cars lose performance permanently with no way to recover it besides throwing it in the trash and buying a new one?

Do you actually enjoy the hassle of doing that? Especially when you have multiple settings sheets saved for the car (perhaps one for each track) where you have to manually recreate each and every tune one value at a time?

 

[eykxas]

I think no one here understand the purpose of these features... When you love your car, you take care of it. And that's the point.

Engine wearing "alone" is not fun, I'm ok with that. But the satisfaction of a well maintained car, that's what the game tries to replicate. How do we keep our cars in good condition ? By adding wear.

(same with the car wash)

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I mean, do people actually like that their cars lose performance permanently with no way to recover it besides throwing it in the trash and buying a new one?

Do you actually enjoy the hassle of doing that? Especially when you have multiple settings sheets saved for the car (perhaps one for each track) where you have to manually recreate each and every tune one value at a time?

I don’t like it per se, but I’m not really bothered by it either because I don’t ever picture myself putting 12,000 miles on a single car like OP’s Super Formula for instance. My most organically driven car that I didn’t use for grinding so far is a DBR9 with only 500+ miles from completing the Gr.3 races.

For the record, I was actually glad to see the GT Auto maintenance return leading up to the game’s release. I like that a car’s condition changes the more you drive it, so it simulates an aspect of what having a car is like long-term. However, I do understand those that are annoyed at permanently losing power and don’t see a good reason why we can’t at least restore our cars to peak performace other than PD’s bizzaro logic that only makes sense to them, which can be said about a lot of things in GT7.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

I mean, do people actually like that their cars lose performance permanently with no way to recover it besides throwing it in the trash and buying a new one?

Do you actually enjoy the hassle of doing that? Especially when you have multiple settings sheets saved for the car (perhaps one for each track) where you have to manually recreate each and every tune one value at a time?

I don’t exactly like how this aspect was implemented, but I also don’t mind it either. It’s nothing worth getting upset about. If I ever find myself in a situation where I’ve permanently lost more than 1hp on a car (whatever amount it will take to actually affect its performance because currently 1hp isn’t it) then I’ll just buy another of that car to use in races where I want/need to use said car at peak performance. I won’t trash the car that’s lost the hp either, I’ll find other uses for it I’m sure.
Having said that, I don’t think I’ll ever put that many miles on any of the most expensive Legend cars in the game and I definitely don’t care what the hp number is as long as the car still performs the same, which currently it does in this situation.

I also don’t like the idea of having to copy over the settings, but again, nothing more than a minor inconvenience as it takes all of 2 minutes tops to transfer over a setting sheet from one car to another. People on PS4 spend about that same amount of time waiting for certain menus or events to load from what I’ve heard.

 

[Will Once]

I mean, do people actually like that their cars lose performance permanently with no way to recover it besides throwing it in the trash and buying a new one?

Do you actually enjoy the hassle of doing that? Especially when you have multiple settings sheets saved for the car (perhaps one for each track) where you have to manually recreate each and every tune one value at a time?

It's part of the charm of the GT series that the game doesn't make your life too easy. You have to start with a crappy little hatchback when you really want to starting with the racing cars or hyper cars. And when you do get to the racing cars you find that they aren't eligible for every race. Maybe you have to get a licence before you can enter some races. We have to manage tyre wear and fuel consumption in-race. Cope with rain. Save up for the more expensive cars. Deal with night races. Rallying.

Oh, and cope with engine wear.

None of these are things that I actively like in and of themselves. But the cumulative effect is that when you win you feel that you have really earned it.

Would the game be more fun if it was easier? For some people, yes. For some people, no.

 

[RacinLei]

Im fine with this feature 👍🏻
Lets say we are grind the fav gr.3 car on Sardegna 800.

20.000km… We earn round about 45 to 83 million, I think thats more then enough to buy a new 1.
And yeah there is a slite power loss. Is like to drive with normal oil and drive further is also 1bhp loss.
Both Moste noticeable @ the end of the rpm range.
And yeah, every day hour zero, i choose my car and oil and clean it. After every session same thing.
Change Car, same thing 🤪

 

[Rotherbach K]

Hi,

But @Scaff - even with the nice words, this is basically already a kind of flaming towards me - by rendering my opinion to be worthless. I don't think it's intended to be like that - but you can understand it like that.

My opinion is based on my professional experience in managing customer complaints and statistics. The number of negative views is even small compared to all other critics, isn't it? So I don't expect anyone putting big efforts in it. Specially when taking into account - this feature is I'm since GT4 and the resulting "damage" is exceptional small.

And so do I priorize how much efforts I put into things I notice and find not well done. Saves breath for more important stuff and gives you a better mood in general ,) That were my point comes from. You need impact and you get impact by numbers or weight.

Good night