Europe - The Official Thread

Dennisch
24 parties and almost 900 candidates to choose from.

DEMOCRACY!!!
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Interesting. 24 parties, but how many major? How is a coalition formed? In Switzerland, there are many parties, but the top four make the coalition government.

Of course the US is a different sort of democracy. The system is 2 major parties only. No such thing as coalition government.
 
Dotini
Interesting. 24 parties, but how many major? How is a coalition formed? In Switzerland, there are many parties, but the top four make the coalition government.

Of course the US is a different sort of democracy. The system is 2 major parties only. No such thing as coalition government.
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The biggest party makes the coalition.
 
Dennisch
Looks like it. His current coalition partner is heading for a massive loss, so I expect a coalition with the christian, slightly right wing parties.
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He has said it won't be with the Geert Wilders' Wonderboys so the CDA would be more likely.
 
Liquid
He has said it won't be with the Geert Wilders' Wonderboys so the CDA would be more likely.
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It's going to be a broad coalition. 76 seats are needed.

VVD 33 (R), CDA 19 (R), PVV 20 (R), D66 19 (L), GL 14 (L), SP 14 (L), PvdA 9 (L), CU 5 (R) PvdD 5 (?), 50Plus 4 (R), SGP 3 (R), Denk 3 (?), FvD 2 (?), VNL 0 (R)

PvdD is the Animal party. Denk are the Erdogan friends. FvD is the Forum for Democracy. I haven't followed them to see on what side of the spectrum they are.

I suspect a VVD, CDA, D66 and a small party, most likely the Christianunion to get to the majority.
 
Looks like PVV got 20 seats, becoming the second largest party in the Netherlands.

A likely coalition would be: VVD, CDA, D66, CU
 
24 parties?

Hmm...

1. Generic mainstream centre-right party
2. Generic mainstream centre-left party
3. Right wing Eurosceptics
4. Far left hippie tree-hugging green party
5. Extreme right-wing white supremacist party that no-one takes seriously
6. Conservative Christian party that wants to ban abortions and divorce
7. Left-wing socialist party
8. Far-left communist party
9. Libertarian party
10. Breakaway nationalist party for one of the states
11. Breakaway nationalist party for one of the states that also has terrorists
12. Radical Islamist party that may or may not be harbouring terrorists
13. One-policy party created by pothead students as joke that people actually vote for for some reason
14. Neo-Nazi party
15. Sub-nationalist party that wants the interests of Holland to come before the rest of the Netherlands
16. Radical feminazi party that wants to put all men in labour camps
17. LGBT party
18. Low countries reunification party
19. Anti-monarchy republican party
20. Maastricht independence party
21. Frisian nationalists
22. Anarchy party
23. Pacifist peace, love and marijuana party
24. Satirical party that worships Elvis

Something of that nature?
 
A thought...

The EU is, above all other considerations, concerned with the prospect of disintegration. While it must remain possible for a member to leave, leaving needs to be seen to be difficult, expensive and, when all is said and done, a worse option than staying a member. Now that a member of the EU has decided to leave, the EU is faced with its first true test in this regard, and will be doing everything in its collective power to make Brexit as hard as it can be.

But - this comes at a worrying cost: breaking up nation states. The harder Brexit is made to be by the EU, the more likely it is that Scotland (and possibly also Northern Ireland, and to a lesser extent Wales - and even some regions of England), will decide that the lure/promise of the EU is indeed better than what is coming their way through exiting the EU, and hence vote for independence - thus breaking up the UK. The question is, how complicit is the EU going to be in this? The EU's seeming intransigence on matters that the UK (among others) wished to see reformed played a big part in causing UK voters to vote to leave the EU in the first instance, and now there is the prospect that the actions of the EU could play a pivotal role in influencing independence movements in the UK as Brexit approaches. But surely this is not what the EU is supposed to be about, creating a supranational state on the one hand while helping to destroy nation states on the other...
 
Touring Mars
But surely this is not what the EU is supposed to be about, creating a supranational state on the one hand while helping to destroy nation states on the other...
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In general, for a new paradigm to be created, the old one has to be destroyed or die out. Mustn't the vision be for all nation states to be subsumed into a global order? I would assume a successful Brexit must be thwarted by any means possible. Should the EU fail or, gasp, Trump to force a dissolution of NATO or the UN, the globalization/one world movement would be dealt a terrible setback, leaving many wondering about the world coming apart at the seams. The America First plan would call for a series of bilateral trading arrangements.

Edit: A report coming in now says Trump, in meeting with Merkel, is leaning on her (and other foot dragging Euro nations) hard to pay up on delinquent NATO dues.
 
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Touring Mars
A thought...

The EU is, above all other considerations, concerned with the prospect of disintegration. While it must remain possible for a member to leave, leaving needs to be seen to be difficult, expensive and, when all is said and done, a worse option than staying a member. Now that a member of the EU has decided to leave, the EU is faced with its first true test in this regard, and will be doing everything in its collective power to make Brexit as hard as it can be.

But - this comes at a worrying cost: breaking up nation states. The harder Brexit is made to be by the EU, the more likely it is that Scotland (and possibly also Northern Ireland, and to a lesser extent Wales - and even some regions of England), will decide that the lure/promise of the EU is indeed better than what is coming their way through exiting the EU, and hence vote for independence - thus breaking up the UK. The question is, how complicit is the EU going to be in this? The EU's seeming intransigence on matters that the UK (among others) wished to see reformed played a big part in causing UK voters to vote to leave the EU in the first instance, and now there is the prospect that the actions of the EU could play a pivotal role in influencing independence movements in the UK as Brexit approaches. But surely this is not what the EU is supposed to be about, creating a supranational state on the one hand while helping to destroy nation states on the other...
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Abraham Lincoln had what turned out to be a pretty effective way of dealing with states who tried to leave the union.
 
Touring Mars
A thought...

The EU is, above all other considerations, concerned with the prospect of disintegration. While it must remain possible for a member to leave, leaving needs to be seen to be difficult, expensive and, when all is said and done, a worse option than staying a member. Now that a member of the EU has decided to leave, the EU is faced with its first true test in this regard, and will be doing everything in its collective power to make Brexit as hard as it can be.

But - this comes at a worrying cost: breaking up nation states. The harder Brexit is made to be by the EU, the more likely it is that Scotland (and possibly also Northern Ireland, and to a lesser extent Wales - and even some regions of England), will decide that the lure/promise of the EU is indeed better than what is coming their way through exiting the EU, and hence vote for independence - thus breaking up the UK. The question is, how complicit is the EU going to be in this? The EU's seeming intransigence on matters that the UK (among others) wished to see reformed played a big part in causing UK voters to vote to leave the EU in the first instance, and now there is the prospect that the actions of the EU could play a pivotal role in influencing independence movements in the UK as Brexit approaches. But surely this is not what the EU is supposed to be about, creating a supranational state on the one hand while helping to destroy nation states on the other...
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Why would they set themselves up as enemies of democracy? Making it hard to leave the EU or punishing us for wanting to leave is punishing the people of the UK for having the temerity to exercise their democratic rights. How would that play with the public in each member state if the media did the job properly and point out what their politicians are doing? That in itself might be a pretty good tactic to use. Go to the media in each country and ask them how they'd like being treated like that for having the right to vote to leave.

Besides since no country that is a net benefactor money wise would ever choose to walk away from free money - that leaves the net contributers as the only ones who can leave. How many of them are not in the Eurozone? Two. Denmark and Sweden. There is no exit method from the Euro I've ever heard of so they are then the only other countries that could leave. That's not a disintegration in anybody's book.

Then you look at the options put on the table recently - one of which is to go back to trade only. If the rest of the EU chose that we wouldn't even want to leave at that point anyway.
 
Tired Tyres
Why would they set themselves up as enemies of democracy? Making it hard to leave the EU or punishing us for wanting to leave is punishing the people of the UK for having the temerity to exercise their democratic rights.
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Exactly - but that is what is on the table... the EU must demonstrate that being outside the EU is worse than being inside the EU, and Brexit is the first opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, this runs the risk of fomenting divisions within the exiting member state - where regions (or in the case of the UK, countries) are divided over whether it is better to be in the EU or out of it. Naturally, the EU must do its utmost to convince people it is the former, and that is what is happening in the UK - the EU are proposing a deal with the UK that is clearly inferior to EU membership, and thus Scotland, Northern Ireland and may be even regions of England are prepared to break away from the UK in order to maintain the benefits of being inside the EU. But this is a dangerous game - perhaps they don't have any other choice, but as it stands, a hardline approach from the EU toward the UK in Brexit negotiations is a key driving factor that could cause the UK itself to disintegrate.

Tired Tyres
Besides since no country that is a net benefactor money wise would ever choose to walk away from free money - that leaves the net contributers as the only ones who can leave. How many of them are not in the Eurozone? Two. Denmark and Sweden. There is no exit method from the Euro I've ever heard of so they are then the only other countries that could leave. That's not a disintegration in anybody's book.
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The fact that there is no clear method for leaving the Eurozone is troubling - and the consequences of this can be seen in Greece, and probably in Italy too in the not too distant future. But what happens if a member state has a referendum and votes to leave the Euro? If there is no exit method, then the will (and/or the needs) of the people becomes irrelevant, and that's a bit of an issue. While it is unlikely for the moment, it is certainly possible that a major Eurozone economy (namely Italy, but also Spain or France) could at some point vote to leave the Euro.

Tired Tyres
Then you look at the options put on the table recently - one of which is to go back to trade only. If the rest of the EU chose that we wouldn't even want to leave at that point anyway.
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The 'trade only' EU model is one suggestion but the other options include going in the entirely opposite direction - full scale integration. The UK might even rejoin the EU if it were to be scaled back to a mere trading bloc, but it is probably the least likely of all the proposed options. The fact that it has taken a key member state to leave the EU for these ideas to even see the light of day, however, is pretty ridiculous... could they not have come up with some of these ideas before the Brexit referendum?
 
Touring Mars
The 'trade only' EU model is one suggestion but the other options include going in the entirely opposite direction - full scale integration. The UK might even rejoin the EU if it were to be scaled back to a mere trading bloc, but it is probably the least likely of all the proposed options. The fact that it has taken a key member state to leave the EU for these ideas to even see the light of day, however, is pretty ridiculous... could they not have come up with some of these ideas before the Brexit referendum?
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Probably because it takes something as big as someone leaving to shake them out of the cosy way of thinking people get into when you're just coasting along. It happens to the best of us, never mind great big institutions like to EU.
 
Free societies sometimes descend into tyranny. They do this "by increasing the size and scope of government. Throughout history, free societies descended into tyranny when their populations realized they can use the power of government to give themselves benefits at the expense of others."
 
"Sadly, for all the commission’s hard work, it is unlikely to be heard. The average rebuttal is read about 1,000 times. The Daily Mail’s website, by contrast, garners 225m visitors each month."

Depressing, i didn't know fake news reached such an extent in UK for such a long time. (well, actually i knew but not that EU was a target since the 90's).
I'm glad tabloids are non existent in France, but social medias are, more or less organically, starting to do their dirty job.
 

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