Europe - The Official Thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
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- CZE
- novcze
If you think that hand grenades are part of somebody's culture than I fully agree with you
On a serious note I already agreed with TouringMars about cultural aspect, but would anyone care about immigration if it was only positive experience?
So if your car gets burned, your house lost value and you can't go jogging outside that's what? ... racist perception I guess 💡
So that my definition of no-go zone is different from yours, if journalists can't do their work without Police assistence, or paramedics need Police backup, that's pretty much no-go zone. Don't tell me you are taking "no-go" literally.
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6630452
"The police do not use the term 'no-go zones,' but Gudmundson argued it was a good way to describe a place where, quoting the report, "the public in several instances feel that it is the criminals who run the areas" and where "police cannot carry out their job.""
If you think that hand grenades are part of somebody's culture than I fully agree with you
On a serious note I already agreed with TouringMars about cultural aspect, but would anyone care about immigration if it was only positive experience?
Handgrenades aren't a part of someones culture... I didn'y make that claim you did, this means you have to prove to me this is part of someones culture before you can use it as a fact.
Ever heard of antwerp? We have nates trown in one of the biggest cities in Belgium and they are due to drugcartels fighting each other. The hellhole in Belgium is the place where a nationalistic politician is mayor. I have no recollection of grenaded in Brussel but in antwerp one explodes almost on a montly basis.
So again please what culture has grenades as part of it?
On your serious note, this is complex but let's try. People have bad experiences with other people. Now when that person is an immigrant more people will remember that encounter. Further there is something as confirmation bias. Wich if you believe migrants to be something and news comes allong that confirms said belief you will be less likely to check if it's actually true. (I.e. No go zone's
)When you have people using these thing to spread a narrative perception can significantly differ from reality. (I.e. @PocketZeven showed the perception in the netherland s of a majority of them not working was wrong)
A lot of the bad experiences a mot of people have are actually hear say and not really experiences. And the real experiences most of the time don't differ to much from experiences with the 'real' population.
If your car gets burned you have every right to be mad and press charges just as when a 'real' citizen does that. Also since when is.it a common thing for migrants to burn cars?
If your house lost value it's either because you didn't take care of yoyr property or something major changed in regards of road connections to the rest of the country. Which is the most likely explanation. If it's due to migrants moving there, well yeah you might not be but having a neighbourhood valued less because migrants live there is, how to put it, ... rascist? Or off coarse like I said before the immigrants had nothing to do with it which is entirely possible.
You can't go jogging outside? Seriously... my parents are using.this line for as long as I remember yet all my girlfriends where able to go and jog outside without being raped or assaulted by migrants so yes this fear is your perception and if it's because the migrants will hurt you, your perception is rascist...
Ow yeah I'm taking the no go zone litterally that's how it was presented to me. Don't pull a ****ing jordan peterson on me and say something controversial yet laugh at me when I take it as you said it while you didn't define what you meant and didn't allude to it having to be taken less litteral.
Secondly you have to show this is a problem that stems from migration and not some other reason.
Secondly what you describe is exactly what @TenEightyOne described.
So yeah peoples perception of problems with migrants. I belief you feel it to be true but I've had very similar experiences with 'real' belgians so I do not believe these are specific migrant issues.
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- novcze
I didn't claim that, I said:
... hand grenades in Sweden are now in fashion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden
On your serious note, this is complex but let's try. People have bad experiences with other people. Now when that person is an immigrant more people will remember that encounter. Further there is something as confirmation bias. Wich if you believe migrants to be something and news comes allong that confirms said belief you will be less likely to check if it's actually true. (I.e. No go zone's
When you have people using these thing to spread a narrative perception can significantly differ from reality. (I.e. @PocketZeven showed the perception in the netherland s of a majority of them not working was wrong)
A lot of the bad experiences a mot of people have are actually hear say and not really experiences. And the real experiences most of the time don't differ to much from experiences with the 'real' population.
I wasn't talking about personal experiences, more about experience for the country where you can study overall data like crime statistics, cost of immigration, etc.
I'm not pulling anything, I used the term as I understand it, which differs from yours, no big drama ... I also didn't say that I disagree with @TenEightyOne, although I'm not sure if Sweden is historically used to have this type of violence.
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HenrySwanson
(Banned)
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An Imam offered a Swedish Politician 3,000 votes in return for a promise that, once in office, the party would arrange a building plot for a new, bigger mosque in a central location.....
https://spectator.us/2018/09/selling-europes-new-muslim-vote/
Some things never change
https://spectator.us/2018/09/selling-europes-new-muslim-vote/
Some things never change
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
An Imam offered a Swedish Politician 3,000 votes in return for a promise that, once in office, the party would arrange a building plot for a new, bigger mosque in a central location.....
https://spectator.us/2018/09/selling-europes-new-muslim-vote/
Some things never change
It's good to see you finally posting a story about immigrants integrating with the communities they're joining.
An Imam offered a Swedish Politician 3,000 votes in return for a promise that, once in office, the party would arrange a building plot for a new, bigger mosque in a central location.....
https://spectator.us/2018/09/selling-europes-new-muslim-vote/
Some things never change
So Sweedish people then
Whitestar
Premium
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- Whitestar127
Sweden no doubt have their fair share of challenges. Whether one calls them "no-go zones" or "exclusion areas" are kind of irrelevant. Although "no-go zones" are probably a bit misleading in most cases, is my impression.
This is a short report from the Norwegian channel NRK.
I should perhaps make it clear that this isn't meant as any sort of "blame the immigrants" post. Actually, the researcher says that the immigrant youths are some of those now paying the price for the politicians' decisions, which he more or less sums up like this:
(there's a small translation error here; he actually said "nazister" (nazis), not "rasister" (racists))
One of my colleagues (who has parents in Sweden and visits them regularly while working in Norway) mirrors what he says here, adding "I like how you in Norway has a much more open discussion about these things". He also thinks this has contributed to the fact that the Sweden Democrats are on the rise now.
This is a short report from the Norwegian channel NRK.
I should perhaps make it clear that this isn't meant as any sort of "blame the immigrants" post. Actually, the researcher says that the immigrant youths are some of those now paying the price for the politicians' decisions, which he more or less sums up like this:
(there's a small translation error here; he actually said "nazister" (nazis), not "rasister" (racists))
One of my colleagues (who has parents in Sweden and visits them regularly while working in Norway) mirrors what he says here, adding "I like how you in Norway has a much more open discussion about these things". He also thinks this has contributed to the fact that the Sweden Democrats are on the rise now.
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It's still considered somewhat unusual, yes.
Is said people shouldn't drop their culture, assimilation is not integration.
Your reply was:
If you think that hand grenades are part of somebody's culture than I fully agree with you
So why was that your answer if you didn't want to imply they bring with the the active use of handgrenades?
Then bring on the data,... you've been using personal.experience the entire time as the proof for the experiences of the country. Show me the rise in crime due to immigration, cost of migrants is very hard to calculate and allows for a lot of discussion but when provided with the data that would be an honnest discussion.
I honnestly took offense due to the way you acted when explaining I misunderstood your idea. This sentence in particular:
You were acting as if it where to be irrational for me to assume the words you used to mean what those words mean. Since you've explained what you meant I can accept no go zones according to your defenition existing, I just don't agree it's an immigrant problem.
So again my problem.was you acted as if I was irrational for using the standard defenition of certain words. This tactic has been used many times before to discredit an 'oponent', Jordan Peterson did it fairly recent with his 'forced monogamy' statement. I don't like those debate tactics as they are just a disguised ad hominem. So you might not have done this deliberatly but I found it to be unfair. Just tell me what you meant if I misunderstood, no hard feelings by the way
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I also implied it's an exaggeration, but if you look at that wiki link, you can see who is mostly using them.
Crime statistics are made of individual crimes which mean personal experiences.
https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics.html you can try to find any mention of ethnicity because Sweden wants to keep their face. As this article states :
"Yet it’s still hard for Swedish authorities to be frank about what’s going on. It’s widely known that gang members are mainly first- and second-generation immigrants, and problems are rampant in what police euphemistically refer to as ‘vulnerable areas’. Thus the gang wars serve as a constant reminder of Sweden’s failed migration and integration policies. This is a problem for the government (and even the opposition) in a country that prides itself on being a ‘humanitarian superpower’. And yet politicians, in government and opposition, seem particularly concerned that violence in immigrant suburbs is a PR problem, a threat to the image of Sweden, and that the remedy is spin."
Economic research by https://sites.google.com/site/joakimruist/ look at his work if interested.
edit:
Probably not alone, but just because you English folks are used to it doesn't mean it should be standard or something worthy of importing.
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If you think that hand grenades are part of somebody's culture than I fully agree with you
On a serious note I already agreed with TouringMars about cultural aspect, but would anyone care about immigration if it was only positive experience?
So if your car gets burned, your house lost value and you can't go jogging outside that's what? ... racist perception I guess 💡
So that my definition of no-go zone is different from yours, if journalists can't do their work without Police assistence, or paramedics need Police backup, that's pretty much no-go zone. Don't tell me you are taking "no-go" literally.
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6630452
"The police do not use the term 'no-go zones,' but Gudmundson argued it was a good way to describe a place where, quoting the report, "the public in several instances feel that it is the criminals who run the areas" and where "police cannot carry out their job.""
I think this sums up the BS that is going around about no-go zones in Europe. It is essentially rightwing propagenda:
There are zones that have high poverty and petty crime, but marking it as a no-go zone is a gross overstatement.
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If you are born in raised in say, England (for arguments sake), you are English. End off. You're not an immigrant.
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I understand your postition, but I still identify myself as a Dutch Chinese and very proud of it. You are making it sound as a bad thing being called an immigrant.
I dont understand how "immigrant" somehow became a bad word? The usa for example is built upon immigrants and used to be proud their identity (English, Irish, dutch, Italian etc.) somehow that became a negative word in these few decades. In a lot of cases they use the word immigrant, but want to refer to Muslim immigrants, but probably immigrant doesnt sound racist. Essentially making the word "immigrant" bad.
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- GTP_Famine
It's not. It is however a word that means "one who has migrated into". If you were born there, you didn't migrate there, so you're not an immigrant.
A "second generation immigrant" is a native.
You can identify however you like, I'm not attacking your identity. But the word immigrant, just as asylum seeker carries emotional weight that the far right use to push their agendas of hate.
Look at that link above about Swedish Muslims pushing for a Mosque during the elections.
The article groups immigrants and '2nd generation immigrants' together, as if they are the same. This is how '2nd generation immigrant' is used to strip you of your rights and who you are to demonise you.
And what @Famine said
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- Johnnypenso
It's a commonly used term here in Canada to refer to immigrants as "first generation" and their children as "second generation", with no negative connotation I'm aware of. Statistics Canada defines it as so:
- First generation refers to people who were born outside Canada. The 2011 NHS data showed there were 7,217,300 people in the first generation in 2011, or 22.0% of the total population. This is a diverse group, whose country of birth is represented by around 200 countries. The vast majority (93.9%) are individuals who are, or have ever been, immigrants to Canada. In addition, 4.9% are non-permanent residents, defined as people from another country who, at the time of the survey, have a work or study permit or who are refugee claimants. It also includes any non-Canadian-born family members living with them in Canada. Also included in the first generation are roughly 87,400 people who are Canadian citizens by birth; that is, they were born outside Canada to parents who are Canadian citizens.
- Second generation includes individuals who were born in Canada and had at least one parent born outside Canada. In 2011, this group consisted of just over 5,702,700 people, representing 17.4% of the total population. For just over half (54.8%) of them, both parents were born outside Canada.
- Third generation or more refers to people who are born in Canada with both parents born in Canada. In 2011, this group comprised 19,932,300 individuals, accounting for 60.7% of the total population. They may have several generations of ancestors born in Canada, or their grandparents may have been born abroad.
Native.
I'm on my way home so I'll chek the links when I'm there.
And while individual cases summed up totals crime statistics it's not beneficial to use individual cases to analyse the global effect of migrants on the statistics.
Also if you mean to say that evidence is the plural of anecdote you'd be wrong. The way you said it I have to agree the sum of the individual cases fill the statistics.
I'll check the links like I said.
