Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out
- Thread starter Crispy
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- 4,145
- Ottawa
I hope the Formula rim is a succes as I am very interested in a GT rim but have zero interest in a formula rim for my CSR-E. Those a great news for CSR-E owners.
- 404
- Aubrey, Texas
I hope the Formula rim is a succes as I am very interested in a GT rim but have zero interest in a formula rim for my CSR-E. Those a great news for CSR-E owners.
I agree, I won't buy a Formula rim but would buy a GT rim for my CSR-E.
- 1,305
- N Ireland
- MarkyParky79
The reason many bought the formula rim for the CSW was due to the cost. The thinking being that the BMW rim could be bought later or they could wait for the next rim to be released as it was a big out lay, base and rim. Not because the formula rim was their first choice.
And I have seen many people mod their csr elites and not one choose the formula style in their modification. The one's I've seen are gt style, momo and sparco wheels being used.
There is the argument that the Elite is a GT style rim, but honestly it feels so toy like and cheap it detracts from the immersion. From day one of the reviews this has been its biggest criticism, leading many to call for a GT style rim and not the formula style on the way.
It baffles me why no one at Fanatec listens to it's customers. Why come on sites interact with us, ask what we would like, then ignore our plea's lol
And I have seen many people mod their csr elites and not one choose the formula style in their modification. The one's I've seen are gt style, momo and sparco wheels being used.
There is the argument that the Elite is a GT style rim, but honestly it feels so toy like and cheap it detracts from the immersion. From day one of the reviews this has been its biggest criticism, leading many to call for a GT style rim and not the formula style on the way.
It baffles me why no one at Fanatec listens to it's customers. Why come on sites interact with us, ask what we would like, then ignore our plea's lol
- 4,145
- Ottawa
As a Elite owner, I find excessive to say the the standard rim " feels so toy like and cheap " as it definitly is neither.
Even though, I would not mind a gt style rim, mainly because I prefer my wheel to be a full circle, I am perfectly happy with the feel and operation of the standard Elite rim.
Most of the criticism on the Rim was in compairison the the base built beeing so over the top in strengh feel and appearance, by compairison the rim, looked more ordinary as it is so similar to the CSR.
I am saden that the standard rim is diminishing your immersion experience, but I can assure you that it is not the case for me.
It would be a shame potential new Elite owner did not acquire this fantastic immersion tool the Elite is, believing the rim is a big draw back, it is not.
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
This is his blog and he's designing a belt tensioner from here on out for the CSR Elite: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/rmjhj650/27431248.html
And a link to when he was further along: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/rmjhj650/28520199.html
Oh, and his mountainbike suspension mod on the CSP's: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/rmjhj650/29202502.html
Last post is with the CSP MTB mod: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/rmjhj650/31377455.html
If I read what he says correctly. The sensor is very smooth and stable. Probably a big improvement over the 15kg load cell we have now.
Edit: Yahoo.jp doesn't allow linking to their images, so removed them. >_<
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bevo
Premium
- 2,483
- GTP_bevofrancis
- bevo francis
the rim on the elite is the reason I got the CSW with GT rim and I did not get the F1 rim as im not interested in F1 at all. plus the F1 rim just don't have the sexiness of the GT rim
I'm not all that interested in F1 either but got the formula rim anyway. It is a much better rim for the CSW. You can feel much, much more of what the tires are doing, and it is much more responsive. I use the BMW rim for the MX-5 and spec racer and that's it. Everything else I use the formula rim.
They really need to make a much lighter full steering wheel to use with the CSW. I would rather have a cheaper, lighter plastic rim then the BMW rim. It's just to heavy for the CSW, after you use the formula rim and see what the base is capable of doing, it's really hard to go back to the BMW rim.
It's a different story though with oval racing. The BMW rim is nice for it, because it kind of muffles the feedback and is easier to hold your line with. The formula rim is nice to use though for a few practice laps to get a better feel for the track surface and then switch back to the BMW rim to actually practice with and race.
If i could only have one though it would be the formula rim. It just has such a better force feedback feel and really does show what the CSW is capable of.
If I could pick the next CSW base, it would be another full rim, I don't care what style, but as light as they can make it. I don't care if it only has 2 buttons on it and is made from some kind of high quality plastic. I would rather have great force feedback then a heavy rim.
- 85
- Queensland
- smokey777
ya Bevo the GT rim is heavy but I have found that the cars feel a lot more planted with the CSW & GT rim (I had a G27 before) so I love the heavier feel of it I found iRacing im a lot more consistent & faster than what I was with G27 but I probably stuggling a bit with say rFactor as im used to very twitchy steering with it (I use 220 sensitivity in rF1) with the G27 it was easy to be twitchy because of weight etc. but to be honest I still wouldn't use the F1 rim as it don't seem right driving a V8 etc without a GT style rim.
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Thanks logi-force! From what I see, he didn't make a modification to belt wrap, he tied the two FFB motors together with a synchronous belt. One big problem with his setup is he's putting even more side-load on the OE motors than they already have. It also says he changed to a 4-rib belt, which I thought of doing too, but didn't want to add the extra friction and weight. The OE motors use bushing supported shafts, so side loads are bad news. It looks as though he also made a handle to make it easier to tension the belts without disassembling the housing.
The belt wrap mod I want to make should allow for running less belt tension so the rolling friction will decrease and there will be less side load on the motor shafts, however since the belt wrap surface will increase nearly 100%, it should still easily prevent slipping. I am quite liking his brake mod though.
I am using my phone right now so I can't use google translate, I wonder why he 3D modeled the motor block? Does anyone know if he speaks English?
I think I'm going to run with a liquid cooling system from a PC for my MOSFETs and the FFB motors. I've already 3D modeled most of the parts and a jig to make the tubing wraps for the motors. Probably going to get started on the machining Thursday.
OK, I have checked it out on the PC now, I see where he did the wrap mod. Interesting. It would appear that he had trouble getting the belts to stop slipping even with the wrap mod. And I see that he examined the pulleys' teeth profiles on an optical comparator and found them a bit off, so he re-cut the teeth. Darned Chinese crap! I think he missed a beat by not checking ALL the pulleys' teeth though; if the motor pulleys were off, there is a high likelihood that all the pulleys were off...so his slippage may have been coming from the other end at the larger pulley. It is interesting to note that he didn't feel there was a loss of FFB effects until he did all the mods AND went ultra-tight on the belt tension. He didn't lose FFB effects from only the belt wrap mod. It was a smart idea to add the bearing supports on the outboard end of the pulleys, but he should have done that on both sides. Also, the rubber belt he used looked sort of plasticky...I wonder if it didn't have a lower coefficient of friction than the OE belt and that's another reason why he had so much trouble with slippage.
The belt wrap mod I want to make should allow for running less belt tension so the rolling friction will decrease and there will be less side load on the motor shafts, however since the belt wrap surface will increase nearly 100%, it should still easily prevent slipping. I am quite liking his brake mod though.
I am using my phone right now so I can't use google translate, I wonder why he 3D modeled the motor block? Does anyone know if he speaks English?
I think I'm going to run with a liquid cooling system from a PC for my MOSFETs and the FFB motors. I've already 3D modeled most of the parts and a jig to make the tubing wraps for the motors. Probably going to get started on the machining Thursday.
OK, I have checked it out on the PC now, I see where he did the wrap mod. Interesting. It would appear that he had trouble getting the belts to stop slipping even with the wrap mod. And I see that he examined the pulleys' teeth profiles on an optical comparator and found them a bit off, so he re-cut the teeth. Darned Chinese crap! I think he missed a beat by not checking ALL the pulleys' teeth though; if the motor pulleys were off, there is a high likelihood that all the pulleys were off...so his slippage may have been coming from the other end at the larger pulley. It is interesting to note that he didn't feel there was a loss of FFB effects until he did all the mods AND went ultra-tight on the belt tension. He didn't lose FFB effects from only the belt wrap mod. It was a smart idea to add the bearing supports on the outboard end of the pulleys, but he should have done that on both sides. Also, the rubber belt he used looked sort of plasticky...I wonder if it didn't have a lower coefficient of friction than the OE belt and that's another reason why he had so much trouble with slippage.
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you never know i might buy it oneday
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
This guy really like nice engineering : Dyson, nice hi-fi amp
He uses the back motors shafts to remove some front belt constraint ?
It's not for that actually. It is for the use of trying to keep the torque equalized and minimizing slippage, as he explains with his drawings.
What he says is that when for example the top motor pulls to the right (trying to rotate the big pulley to the right), the belt acts like an elastic band. It stretches ever so slightly and than on the bottom motor the tension is lost. Thus causing slippage which increases wear and causes FFB effect power loss.
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
Actually, I am starting to think it might be better to have separate motors and separate belts for motors. This so the one motor can't cause belt slack for the other. Also the belts will more properly wrap around the motor pulleys. Only issue is getting both belts around the steering axle without hitting it.
Edit:
Argh... Stupid ipad app. Must've hit quote by mistake.
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Yeah that would be interesting, but you'd end up with more friction that way sort of like he got with the 4-rib belt, since you'd have to use a 2-rib belt on each motor. It doesn't look like there's room to do that and get around the steering shaft though. I still don't understand why he was getting so much slippage with that setup unless either all the pulley teeth were improperly machined or that belt was more slick than the original.
Now that I think about it, I might have an idea for how to run two belts and still get around the steering shaft. I may try it out, running two 2-rib belts, one for each motor.
Now that I think about it, I might have an idea for how to run two belts and still get around the steering shaft. I may try it out, running two 2-rib belts, one for each motor.
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- 1,305
- N Ireland
- MarkyParky79
I never realize that belts are so hard to master
Bodnar wheel seems to be the best choice to avoid problems but it is ten times more expensive...
I'm having the same thoughts for a while now. Paying for the CSW and Elite and then modifying both could be quite costly and leaves you without a warranty.
In the long run in might be better just to pay the extra for the top end product.
But hopefully the new motors will continue to keep working
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Well you don't. Anybody who orders from now on should have the supposed "new" batch of motors, but there's no way to check as Fanatec aren't releasing batch no.s of the bad batch, and the motors are identical externally. I wouldn't worry about it too much if you still have a warranty unless it keeps happening to everybody still. Keep an eye on the interwebz and see what happens.
My new CSW should be arriving within the hour. I plan on running the "new" motors until they burn up. If they last I will let you know. I will be doing all my mods and having them ready for the moment I feel any notchiness in the steering. I have a spare motor mount and pulleys so I can do my mods while still running my OEM wheel.
Also, as for the cost of the mods, they really wouldn't cost much as far as parts other than the new motors, and those can be gotten cheap if you look in the right places. If I were to offer a kit of some sort, I am thinking it should be under $100 for sure, (probably quite a ways under, I'm just thinking absolute worst case here), even if I went the two belt direction. (Without the motors). If someone came up with a kit using the same motor as the T500 and went the single motor route, that could save on the motor cost too. Just not sure if the MOSFETs could take the extra current or not.
IIRC, the Bodnar setup was several thousand bucks.
My new CSW should be arriving within the hour. I plan on running the "new" motors until they burn up. If they last I will let you know. I will be doing all my mods and having them ready for the moment I feel any notchiness in the steering. I have a spare motor mount and pulleys so I can do my mods while still running my OEM wheel.
Also, as for the cost of the mods, they really wouldn't cost much as far as parts other than the new motors, and those can be gotten cheap if you look in the right places. If I were to offer a kit of some sort, I am thinking it should be under $100 for sure, (probably quite a ways under, I'm just thinking absolute worst case here), even if I went the two belt direction. (Without the motors). If someone came up with a kit using the same motor as the T500 and went the single motor route, that could save on the motor cost too. Just not sure if the MOSFETs could take the extra current or not.
IIRC, the Bodnar setup was several thousand bucks.
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Hmm... ok. What about modding the wheels, won't this void the warranty?
Also what software are you using? Inventor or Autocad? These are very expensive...
It's interesting that Fanatec didn't listen to the Japanese gentlemen and unfortunate as well
He knows what he is talking about... Will be interesting to see what you come up with and if it is comparible. Do you wish to sell these modifications you plan?
Also what software are you using? Inventor or Autocad? These are very expensive...
It's interesting that Fanatec didn't listen to the Japanese gentlemen and unfortunate as well
He knows what he is talking about... Will be interesting to see what you come up with and if it is comparible. Do you wish to sell these modifications you plan?
- 577
- NC
All else held constant, DC motors such as sim wheels use produce torque directly proportional to drive current. That is at the motor. At the wheel you feel the additional effect of the "gear ratios" from the gears, cogs, or grooved belts in use. So by measuring current under load you can get an idea of torque and any losses. You can also use a fish scale at the rim and some math to track delivered torque. And you can judge speed if you induce some oscillation via tuning settings and then measure travelled distance. Speed is proportional to voltage more or less if only that is varied. Add a different wheel and the travelled distance when oscillating will rise if rim inertia dropped and fall if inertia rose.
Belt slip worry is a bit overblown IMO. And of course you don't necessarily want zero. Non-cogged automotive belts all slip slightly and they transfer way, way more power than do sim wheels. The CSW/Elite wheel is not faced with any massive slip woes or consequences. You want a balance here, and you don't want to face unintended consequences such as more drag.
Belt slip worry is a bit overblown IMO. And of course you don't necessarily want zero. Non-cogged automotive belts all slip slightly and they transfer way, way more power than do sim wheels. The CSW/Elite wheel is not faced with any massive slip woes or consequences. You want a balance here, and you don't want to face unintended consequences such as more drag.
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- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Yes, this is true, but my goal is not necessarily reduced slippage so much as reducing side load for people using stock motors (hopefully they will be able to reduce belt tension or leave it equal and reduce any slippage to minimum. That being said, a 90 degree belt wrap seems very insufficient as far as grip levels go, especially once the belt has aged a bit.
On another note, I've just received my new CSW and it is sporting a 3-rib motor drive belt rather than the 2-rib used on the Elite. So it must be of some concern to Fanatec as well. It is pretty clear the Japanese blogger's original beta CSW has a 2-rib belt from his photos, so it must be a change they made at some point. Wonder when?
On another note, I've just received my new CSW and it is sporting a 3-rib motor drive belt rather than the 2-rib used on the Elite. So it must be of some concern to Fanatec as well. It is pretty clear the Japanese blogger's original beta CSW has a 2-rib belt from his photos, so it must be a change they made at some point. Wonder when?
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- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Yes, the skinnier belt that runs to the electric motor pulleys.
Oh and to ViaContra: sorry, forgot to answer your question. I use Inventor for modeling and AutoCAD for dimensioned drawings made from the imported model. I am able to use them at my former employer's. I couldn't afford them myself. However AutoDesk will let you have copies for free if you are using it to learn. The only thing is they do something so you can't use it to print (maybe overlay with a message?) or something like that.
As far as warranty, everything I plan to change would be able to be changed back, and shouldn't affect the warranty. I might sell some kits if there is interest, but I'm not planning on it. My motor mods that I'm doing for only my wheel will probably void the warranty though. At this point, if another set of motors burn up, I could care less, since all they'll do under warranty is give me another set that will burn up. I am planning on a water-cooling setup that I might sell kits for too, (again, depends on interest), and that shouldn't void anything either. The cooling is very much needed, IMO. I just played some GT5 on my new CSW and I could feel the FFB strength dropping off after about 20-30 minutes of play.
Oh and to ViaContra: sorry, forgot to answer your question. I use Inventor for modeling and AutoCAD for dimensioned drawings made from the imported model. I am able to use them at my former employer's. I couldn't afford them myself. However AutoDesk will let you have copies for free if you are using it to learn. The only thing is they do something so you can't use it to print (maybe overlay with a message?) or something like that.
As far as warranty, everything I plan to change would be able to be changed back, and shouldn't affect the warranty. I might sell some kits if there is interest, but I'm not planning on it. My motor mods that I'm doing for only my wheel will probably void the warranty though. At this point, if another set of motors burn up, I could care less, since all they'll do under warranty is give me another set that will burn up. I am planning on a water-cooling setup that I might sell kits for too, (again, depends on interest), and that shouldn't void anything either. The cooling is very much needed, IMO. I just played some GT5 on my new CSW and I could feel the FFB strength dropping off after about 20-30 minutes of play.
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Thank you. That is interesting. I was aware that you could purchase educational licenses but this normally requires proof that you are enrolled in a program or at a trade school.
I do not believe the T500 motor would fit in the CSW/CSR-Elite base. I think that motor is too long and very expensive.
How long until you have some photos you can show of your mods? Also, are you going to be selling these?
I do not believe the T500 motor would fit in the CSW/CSR-Elite base. I think that motor is too long and very expensive.
How long until you have some photos you can show of your mods? Also, are you going to be selling these?
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Well anything can be made to fit with modifications. I will probably have to move the PCB back a bit to use the Bühler motors I bought.
Again, whether I plan to offer anything really depends on interest. I hope to have a good start on my stuff his week and have it wrapped up in 3-4 weeks' time. At that time I'll start a new thread to gauge interest.
As for AutoDesk; contact them, I believe if you tell them you are trying to learn their program so you can use it as a learned skill on your résumé, they will let you have a free, albeit limited, copy.
Again, whether I plan to offer anything really depends on interest. I hope to have a good start on my stuff his week and have it wrapped up in 3-4 weeks' time. At that time I'll start a new thread to gauge interest.
As for AutoDesk; contact them, I believe if you tell them you are trying to learn their program so you can use it as a learned skill on your résumé, they will let you have a free, albeit limited, copy.
Sorry I am having trouble following because you keep going back and edit your posts.
I see.
I think a saw a photo comparison of the motors in the CSR compared to the T500 and the T500 motor looks to be 50% more long as the RS-555. I suppose one could run the wheel without the back on it at all. It may seem like a better idea to just purchase a T500 at this point hehe
I have made modifications to the CSR but I cannot sell them as they would void someone's warranty. I am though interested in what you have coming to see what you do. I keep the comms clean with a small lathe if need be. It would be nice to see something new happen.
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