Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out
- Thread starter Crispy
- 13,388 comments
- 1,339,747 views
- 577
- NC
I've done countless hours of heat study on CSRs and my Elite. My rigs have volt, amp, and temp meters in place for live readings and trend spotting. I have the power supply set to emit a slight reminder sound when it reaches the amperage limit I have set. That way I can notice where and how often the wheel is maxed out and under what conditions.
It's not just which firmware or driver, but the chosen settings in-sim and in-wheel. You may be able to significantly help or hurt your motor and drive temperatures by adjusting your settings accordingly.
For instance spring or self-centering force makes a large difference and this is seldom mentioned. I tend to like some solid spring force as this feels like a car with high caster like some of my favorite German cars.
In the end it comes down to heat. Even the high dollar rigs using > 100 dollar motors have heat issues. The pricey motors may have more torque and a longer expected life than Fana-buchi motors but they still live within the same laws of physics this universe provides.
It's not just which firmware or driver, but the chosen settings in-sim and in-wheel. You may be able to significantly help or hurt your motor and drive temperatures by adjusting your settings accordingly.
For instance spring or self-centering force makes a large difference and this is seldom mentioned. I tend to like some solid spring force as this feels like a car with high caster like some of my favorite German cars.
In the end it comes down to heat. Even the high dollar rigs using > 100 dollar motors have heat issues. The pricey motors may have more torque and a longer expected life than Fana-buchi motors but they still live within the same laws of physics this universe provides.
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- 4,182
- Ottawa
- 577
- NC
Sorry about that, I was not clear enough.
ANY forces you feel at the steering wheel affect motor and driver heat. They came from the motor(s) which produced torque in proportion to the current sent to them. Unless they hid some gerbils and a treadmill in the wheel base!
So setting the spring / self centering high (which I do prefer) raises the temperatures. Since more current was sent to the motor in order to let the force be with me in Star Wars lingo. During a given turn with strong spring/centering, the motor is gaining heat you'll need to dissipate. When I test out some of my heat mods, I deliberately run maxed out spring / centering to work the device harder.
If you have your spring/centering set pretty high and have temperature woes, you can try turning it down, especially for longer events.
- 4,182
- Ottawa
I would have expected squirrels to give stronger force feedback
Thanks, this was what I thought, but did not want to assume.
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
Yeah, I run my spring pretty high also, I prefer it as it gives a better, more realistic feel IMO also. I used to run my Elites at max spring in GT5 and Forza, and minimum damping. However, the CSW I am pretty happy with right now at base settings. One of the reasons I wanted to mod my motors besides more power was longevity, especially once warranty runs out.
Stan, have you noticed whether the sens setting affects heat levels and torque at the wheel? I was wondering about this since by changing the sens you should be changing the "effective" gear ratio, which would seem like it would work the motors harder or less (more with a lower sens setting, less with a higher one). I used to run 270 all the time, but have been trying out higher settings lately.
Stan, have you noticed whether the sens setting affects heat levels and torque at the wheel? I was wondering about this since by changing the sens you should be changing the "effective" gear ratio, which would seem like it would work the motors harder or less (more with a lower sens setting, less with a higher one). I used to run 270 all the time, but have been trying out higher settings lately.
- 577
- NC
I haven't specifically looked into that, the effect of sensitivity settings. But I will play around with it. I kind of doubt it will have a major effect though. I look at it as more of an immersion / realism / control preference thing and that certain sim games or cars need different settings.
That's what I was expecting to experience with the Premium Service Pack. Unfortunately for me they should have received the CSW base for repair at least 7 working days ago, plus I have emailed a request for status info 3 working days and 1 working day ago and absolutely nothing heard from them at all. Getting angry and frustrated.
<UPDATE> Just had an email from Fanatec and my CSW base should be fixed and on its way back to me tomorrow.
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Carlos
Premium
- 6,453
- Netherlands
Thank you 👍
Unpacking was good. Everything is sealed and numbered, wich makes putting it together a lot easier. All type of screws were sealed seperately, only the manual was a bit hard to understand directly. While putting it together I noticed how well built this really is and it shows when my friend and I were finished. It took us around 2,5 hours and I think if they would've made a better manual we could have finished earlier but not that much.
edit;
Photo:
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- 22
- Brazil
I'll buy the CSW but I have a doubt. What is the best wheel (you're the best performance on the track) or the BMW or F1Rim, if you could choose only one.?
- 4,182
- Ottawa
Felipe Lourenco
I would choose the BMW, to me it is more versatile.
I agree, although it depends. If you don't drift or never use more than about 400-500 degrees of rotation, formula rim gives more speed and allegedly better feel of FFB.
- 681
- Hampshire
I have and love them both although I get much more use from BMW rim and it feels so nice 
I was tempted to buy a second F1 rim off ebay last week and take it apart to make a new rim from anotehr wheel but I figured I'd either break it or not get round to finishing it and waste £140+
I was tempted to buy a second F1 rim off ebay last week and take it apart to make a new rim from anotehr wheel but I figured I'd either break it or not get round to finishing it and waste £140+
- 22
- Brazil
I have and love them both although I get much more use from BMW rim and it feels so nice
I was tempted to buy a second F1 rim off ebay last week and take it apart to make a new rim from anotehr wheel but I figured I'd either break it or not get round to finishing it and waste £140+
I rarely use more than 400 degrees, only when I play Live for Speed ​​and Euro Truck 2. But most of the time I only use 360 degrees.
The difference between the feel of the F1 rim for the BMW rim is too big?
The F1 rim makes you run faster than the BMW kidney? Or is it simply a more realistic feel?
Thank to all
- 577
- NC
Well bear in mind that most FFB wheels honestly don't have "too much" FFB torque at the wheel rim. Or enough IMO. And their "speed" is noticeably affected by the rim inertia which goes up not just with mass but how far that mass is located from the center. You can really notice speed factors change as you boost voltage from stock on these wheels. And simple leverage matters too. A large diameter rim such as the BMW model gives you more leverage with which to resist FFB torque. Conversely a Formula rim with it's smaller working radius has less leverage and so this affects feel too.
Absolutely. I find it strange that Thrustmaster actually advertize it´s GT wheel as heavy for natural inertia when they don´t have the torque to back it up.
From what I gathered the CSW has less torque and go for a rim that weight twice as much or something???
Just don´t make any sense to me. I got the f1 rim and the 320 mm rim. Same weight on both but the leverage make a huge difference where the T500RS don´t nearly have enough torque for realistic feel. F1 rim I need to do more arm training to really feel I need more torque though even though again it doesn´t have enough torque.
Maybe Fanatec should release a 285 mm rally rim or something it should be a nice compromize. 320 mm to turn around is a bit bulky but I do like how it smooth the T500RS out. But that I expect is less needed on the CSR Elite and CSW with it´s smaller ffb engines and not using a toothed belt? That is what all the reports say anyway. IRL the leverage is more helpful then in simracing where for the above reasons a smaller rim may feel more realistic.
From what I gathered the CSW has less torque and go for a rim that weight twice as much or something???
Just don´t make any sense to me. I got the f1 rim and the 320 mm rim. Same weight on both but the leverage make a huge difference where the T500RS don´t nearly have enough torque for realistic feel. F1 rim I need to do more arm training to really feel I need more torque though even though again it doesn´t have enough torque.
Maybe Fanatec should release a 285 mm rally rim or something it should be a nice compromize. 320 mm to turn around is a bit bulky but I do like how it smooth the T500RS out. But that I expect is less needed on the CSR Elite and CSW with it´s smaller ffb engines and not using a toothed belt? That is what all the reports say anyway
. IRL the leverage is more helpful then in simracing where for the above reasons a smaller rim may feel more realistic.- 22
- Brazil
- 572
- 18603
- Intimidat3r421
If you turn the Drift mode up on the settings, it "lightens" the weight and feel of the rim up. It really comes down to which car you primarily drive. Both rims are excellent in their own right! People seem to forget what the Drift function does....
- 577
- NC
I'm not sure as I have not used a T500rs. I have CSRs and an Elite. At the ID of their stock rims, an informal fish scale test shows about 10-11 pounds steady for a CSR and about 12 for an Elite FWIW. Both decrease with motor temperature as this is a protection mechanism plus motors inherently lose torque with temperature anyway. Yes the Elite has two motors however it also has much less belt ratio to multiply motor torque. A CSW should have roughly the same torque as the Elite since I think they both use the same power supply (24V / 5 A). Wheel torque is proportional to RPM and wheel speed for a given rim to voltage.
Allowing for this inside diameter I come up with around 4 lb-ft for the CSR and about 4.5 lb-ft for the Elite. With that spec you can do the math for another wheel diameter to get the associated force. Or do a fish scale on another wheel such as a T500rs and convert that to lb-ft. I can get the Elite to about double its stock torque via motor and related mods and hope to blog this when time allows.
Suppose the upcoming Formula Rim for the Elite is 15% smaller in diameter than the stock round wheel. That would lead to the force at the rim being about that much stronger due to less leverage.
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- 22
- Brazil
I found it : http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/6461-Fanatec-Clubsport-Wheel-Review/page5
DrR1pper : Here's a little comparison of the Bühler1.13.044.XX (TM) vs Mabuchi R550:
Bühler (T500 total)
Torque : 150 mNm
RPM : 3,000 rpm
Power : 65 W
Diameter : 52 mm
Mabuchi
Torque : 41.7 mNm
RPM : 13,540 rpm
Power : 60 W
Diameter : 38.5 mm
2x Mabuchi (CSW/CSR-Elite total)
Torque : 83.4 mNm
RPM : 13,540 rpm
Power : 120 W
Diameter : 38.5 mm (x2)
Difference
Torque: CSW/CSR-Elite = 56% T500 output
RPM: CSW/CSR-Elite = 451% T500 output
Does that then mean CSW/CSR-Elite = 252% T500 HP?
Based on what i'm hearing from CSW/CSR-Elite users that 100% FFB strength is really strong, i wonder how many T500 users are using the full 100% on theirs.
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whiplash: I guess it's difficult to just compare the raw numbers. It's all down to specific gearing, and that would mean in fact that the mabuchi motor is stronger at the same rpm. Maybe i have got something wrong here, so please explain it to me!
edit: What i mean is that you neither have 3000 nor 13540 RPM DIRECTLY for FFB, there will alway be some gearing inbetween. And that would mean, at 3000 RPM, the mabuchi puts out some 188 mNm of Torque.
DrR1pper : Here's a little comparison of the Bühler1.13.044.XX (TM) vs Mabuchi R550:
Bühler (T500 total)
Torque : 150 mNm
RPM : 3,000 rpm
Power : 65 W
Diameter : 52 mm
Mabuchi
Torque : 41.7 mNm
RPM : 13,540 rpm
Power : 60 W
Diameter : 38.5 mm
2x Mabuchi (CSW/CSR-Elite total)
Torque : 83.4 mNm
RPM : 13,540 rpm
Power : 120 W
Diameter : 38.5 mm (x2)
Difference
Torque: CSW/CSR-Elite = 56% T500 output
RPM: CSW/CSR-Elite = 451% T500 output
Does that then mean CSW/CSR-Elite = 252% T500 HP?
Based on what i'm hearing from CSW/CSR-Elite users that 100% FFB strength is really strong, i wonder how many T500 users are using the full 100% on theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------
whiplash: I guess it's difficult to just compare the raw numbers. It's all down to specific gearing, and that would mean in fact that the mabuchi motor is stronger at the same rpm. Maybe i have got something wrong here, so please explain it to me!
edit: What i mean is that you neither have 3000 nor 13540 RPM DIRECTLY for FFB, there will alway be some gearing inbetween. And that would mean, at 3000 RPM, the mabuchi puts out some 188 mNm of Torque.
- 577
- NC
In sim land, motors live at very low RPMs. And that is where DC motors make the most torque, in fact it is maximum at 0 rpms or "stall". FFB motors never hit thousands of RPMs. The spec you shared for Mabuchi seems high for RPMs too, could be for a motor with a different winding. Fana-Buchis use 0.22 mm copper wire, 130 turns for each of the five poles. The FFB motor issue is heat most of the time since they heat up pretty rapidly at these low revs when much current is sent to them, and torque is proportional to current. It pays to look at these devices in total…the motors, number of motors, power supplies, belt or gear ratios, motor drivers, cooling, wheel inertia / size, firmware, and other things can each affect matters. So something like a fish scale test nets this all out for a test you can do in a few seconds. However such tests have drawbacks since they are hard to repeat exactly, so keep that in mind.
- 790
- Germany
One thing which is way more important than speed or torque is cogging force.
This is how much you can feel mechanical steps if you turn the motor. The higher the cogging force the less realistic the feeling and the less precision you have.
What is the use of a super sensitive sensor if the mechanics only allow that you move the wheel in steps and not as fluid as in a real car. You will also miss a lot of the small subtle effects.
We have chosen the two smaller motors because they offer a much lower cogging force.
This is how much you can feel mechanical steps if you turn the motor. The higher the cogging force the less realistic the feeling and the less precision you have.
What is the use of a super sensitive sensor if the mechanics only allow that you move the wheel in steps and not as fluid as in a real car. You will also miss a lot of the small subtle effects.
We have chosen the two smaller motors because they offer a much lower cogging force.
- 481
- Germany
- GTP_Mahnegold
And once again from your very own FAQ-section:
"Why is one motor better than two?
The big wheel rim requires a strong motor. We decided to use a single motor as this reduces mechanical resistance or the so called "cogging force". When you turn the wheel you feel little mechanical steps.
The only reason to use two smaller motors instead of one big motor is the increased heat produced by the big motor. The necessary cooling heat sinks and sensor controlled fans cost more than a second motor.
As cost reduction was less important than performance on this wheel, we decided to go for the big 24V Mabuchi motor."
http://www.911wheel.de/?q=faq
So you are trying to say that if your wheel (Porsche wheel) uses one motor, and your main competitar at the time (G25/27) uses two motors, then the FAQ are valid?
And if your wheel (CSR-E/CSW) uses two motors and your main competitor (T500) uses one motor, then it's not?
I am confused...
"Why is one motor better than two?
The big wheel rim requires a strong motor. We decided to use a single motor as this reduces mechanical resistance or the so called "cogging force". When you turn the wheel you feel little mechanical steps.
The only reason to use two smaller motors instead of one big motor is the increased heat produced by the big motor. The necessary cooling heat sinks and sensor controlled fans cost more than a second motor.
As cost reduction was less important than performance on this wheel, we decided to go for the big 24V Mabuchi motor."
http://www.911wheel.de/?q=faq
So you are trying to say that if your wheel (Porsche wheel) uses one motor, and your main competitar at the time (G25/27) uses two motors, then the FAQ are valid?
And if your wheel (CSR-E/CSW) uses two motors and your main competitor (T500) uses one motor, then it's not?
I am confused...
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- 3,475
- Vilnius
^ Ooooohhh... Right in the mabuchies....
- 22
- Brazil
LOL
Now I was worried (scared). I've asked my uncle to buy the CSW tomorrow or today.
Anyway I'll have the G27, the GT2 and the CSW with the BMW (I chose it). I will do a review on 3 wheels, and try to expose as much as possible of the wheels.
Anyway, one thing I think Thomas is correct that the CSW is more accurate and easy to fix during the race that T500rs. At least that's what I see in many analyzes of the wheel
- 4,182
- Ottawa
- 577
- NC
IMO it's all relative. Big compared to what? Small compared to what? And sure you can have two low cogging motors have less drag/pulsing than one motor of a different spec. What is low? I can tell you for sure that the Fana-Buchis enjoy very low cogging. You really can't feel any when holding one loose in your hand and twisting the shaft twixt thumb and forefinger. And the rotational inertia is low.
I have had my Elite wheel only a very short time but have had various motors in it along with variations of them and also different drives. Been busy! At this instant my favorite option is running four of the low cogging Fana-Buchis lol. I use two motors in the stock position and two more feeding into those via the unused rear stub-shaft. This is kind of like using your appendix for something useful. ;-) So the rear pair and front pair are siamesed at the brush ends of the cans (which face one another). Of course, they get even happier when you sprinkle some ball bearings into the mix...
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