Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

  • Thread starter eKretz
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I like the T500, and I think in feel it compares very favorably to my CSR Elite. It's a shame it doesn't run to it's full potential, still, that's probably for the best in terms of reliability.
 
A lot of people like the T500, and I still use mine here and there. I just feel like the CSW/CSRE has that really super smooth and solid feeling, which is what my preference is. My t500 is definitely a bit stronger than my elite and especially my CSW with a heavy rim, but I just love that super smooth feeling when free wheeling. The T500 is very fast though, and great for things like rally and drifting as you can just whip that thing around without concern of damage. I do not feel that confidence with the csre/csw, despite the robust build quality. I am always concerned about odd little issues popping up. The T500 is tough, fast, and powerful but I just cant get past the toothed belts. Plus there is just something impressive about the design of Fanatecs products. I am not usually one for form over function but when non-sim racers come over it is the Fanatec gear that grabs there eye :)

Just for the record, I'm not hating on the T500, I just like the CSRE/CSW's strengths over the T500's strengths personally. For Ekritz, having a modded CSW with over volt potential he really has the best of both worlds (at least I would assume) so that's why I said hes not missing out.
 
Well in reality if the T500 wasn't current limited it would suffer the same reliability problems that the CSW did IMO. Running the motors at unlimited stall current is VERY hard on them - it would pretty much void any factory motor warranty instantly. The Bühler motors are MUCH tougher and more reliable than the stock motors but they would almost certainly fail without the cooling system in place eventually too. Heat kills. The pictures of my failed stock motors' blue armatures are in this thread. (This means they likely reached over 500°F or 260°C internally).

I have actually driven a T500 wheel before at a demo at a car show - I personally feel that it's on a par with the CSW V1 as far as driving feel but the aesthetics are much less pleasing - to me at least. It doesn't hold a candle to a Bühler-modded V1 even at 24V though. One thing that bothers me about the newer firmwares is that they seem to be tuned back in power in certain areas - I am guessing that this is to combat the heat issues. I prefer the V37 firmware on my Bühler V1, so I have no desire to get a universal hub personally. The higher firmwares I've tried have all lost some of the very small and lower mid level forces.

And you're welcome Seth! Glad I had what you needed!
 
Hmm, makes me wonder if maybe my T500 is worse than usual? With mine, when turning the wheel (while on or off) you can feel each tooth and it is saw like. Similar to the older Porsche wheels, but more pronounced. This does seem to go away a bit when the belts have warmed up, and it isn't noticeable when driving except when making slow small turns like whole oval racing. When under constant ffb, this can be felt by turning the wheel slowly, its like it moves in steps but not due to the motor. Its not like the tic, tic, tic of a bad brushed motor, its just a gear like/light rubbing feeling. Perhaps I am just being overly picky, I am a bit fussy sometimes and tend to notice certain small details that wouldn't be noticed by most lol. Ill have to find another T500 owner to come try mine out :)
 
No, the toothed belt can definitely be felt - I just meant the FFB performance. The CSW is definitely smoother and more realistic feeling in terms of the feel turning the wheel when no effects are occurring.
 
Not just the as the aesthetics that give the csw the edge over the t500 (for me anyway, I do agree 100% the csw/csr e look awesome compared to the t500, I did like the stock wheel rim on it, but the base is just fuggly) the tuning menu gives it a huge advantage imo

And I can vouch for the Buhler mod at 24v too, when I had to go back to the t500 it felt like a toy in comparison. Definately worth doing, takes these wheels into a league of their own
 
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Well I'm glad to have so much re-assurance about the Buhler mod :) I just finalized the deal for the setup I am buying and should be sending payment tonight. It will need a little work and assembly but I am excited to get it going. I have wanted this mod ever since I learned about it over a year ago but it has always been beyond my price range to get everything I need. I will definitely be letting you guys know how much I love it once I have it working :)

It couldn't have happened at a better time either, my stock csw motors seem to be failing. They feel gritty and not smooth when constant force is applied.

One question though, is it possible that faulty motors can cause the CSW base to shut off mid race? I was running gt6 in the McLaren f1 on nordschief today (lots of ffb) and about 21 minutes into the race the wheel completely shut off and required a restart. This has never happened before and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't make it happen again. I got the motors good and hot by turning FOR all the way up and also by holding against the full force of the soft motor stop foe an extended time, then driving over lots of bumps. No matter how hot they got, or how rugged the ffb, I couldn't get the base to power off again. Very weird. I checked the power plug on the PCB but there was no issue there. should be worried about my csw PCB? I've had this happen with my elite but never the CSW.
 
Yes, failing motors can definitely cause the wheel to power down and restart. Damaged motors can draw more amperage than healthy motors, and when they do the power supply can't keep up with the wattage demand (watts = volts x amps) so voltage drops. Once the voltage gets below a certain threshold the wheel shuts down.

If they are borderline but not completely failed they will work until there's a high power draw FFB moment and - poof - the wheel shuts down. It will get worse as you keep using them.
 
Ahh, that makes sense. It was definitely right at a strong jolt in a corner that shut it down. I really cant wait to get the buhler mod set up! I know I'm going to love it, I've been looking through your photo album and getting pumped lol.
 
Im sure I will love it, I cant wait!

I have been toying with ideas for keeping the PCB super cool. As I've mentioned before, I use a fairly strong horizontal amp fan (mounted vertically) that blows air onto one side of the heat sink. I would like to replace the thermal paste under the heat sink on my current PCB because when I got it the heat sink was loose and the paste was a bit dirty. Therefore I had to clean much of it off, leaving a layer even thinner than it should be. Any ideas what the best thermal paste/compound would be for this application? I have some Arctic Silver 5 from when I was working on my laptop but I don't know if that is best for this application. I know there ate different types and a bunch of brands but I don't know what types/brands I should be looking at :confused:. I will be rotating the heat sink 90 degrees so the fan blows air across instead of against the fins (EDIT I just looked and my heat sink on my elite PCB is rectangle so this wont work). I also considered putting a heat sink on the back side (I saw this in your album ekritz), I will do this as well if you think it helps 👍. I actually enjoy doing cooling mods, and I like to see how cool I can get something to run even if not absolutely needed. Just one of the many things I'm weird about :D.

Heres a couple pics of the fan I am using.
SANY0026.JPG
SANY0009.JPG
 
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Heat sink on the back will help draw off more heat for sure. You need to be careful back there though because of the vias on the circuit board. If they make contact with each other through the heat sink you'll get a short and a cratered board - might have seen pics of that in my album too! I use AS5 for my wheel, but any reputable thermal compound will work. I replaced the stock heat sink on my PCB with a different one so the fans were blowing through rather than against the fins also.
 
Hey guys, so it is almost 4:30am and I just finally tried the buhler mod out in my csw. I have been busy for the last few days, I worked all week and Saturday I was at mayamans house having some fun with VR, projection and d=box :)

So on the the buhler mod with older style motors at 24v 10a. All I can say is wow! It really is powerful, a LOT more powerfull than the stock setup. I was running my uni hub with a 350mm rim and the ffb was still much stronger than even the elite with the stock or Formula rim. For the first time I ran with less than 100 ffb on the wheel. I was in gt6 so I had the in game sensitivity at 1 or 3 and the in game force at 100%. The on wheel ffb was set anywhere from 60-90. anything above 80 is very strong, to the point where I really needed to hold on and use muscle. I tried it at 100 for a minute and the force was incredible. I knew this setup would be stronger, but this it really strong! The amount of punch is just awesome. Definitely liking it so far ekritz, cant wait to put some more time in :)

My only question is temp monitoring, the motors don't have any temp sensor attached to go to the PCB. I could take one off of another block, but that would only monitor one motor. My idea is to use two of those silicone covered temp sensors/thermistors with two temp displays (either the cheap led ones or preferably a nice round digital automotive gauge if there is a way to replace the water probe with a regular thermistor. I have to look into what the best option for monitoring temps are rather than using the wheels PCB. I'm pretty sure with no sensor plugged in to the PCB it will always be 100% feedback?
 
Yup, no sensor = 100% at all times. The Bühler motors have a higher temp rating than the stock motors so as far as I'm concerned the temp cutout for the stock motors is no good. Some fellows still attach theirs though. I've been running my wheel for 2 years now with no temp monitoring, but I know some folks just like gadgets! :cheers: If you are running the air pump for cooling though, you really don't need to monitor the temps.
 
lol, sorry, I didn't meant to name drop so much :lol:. Yes, I am running the internal motor cooling 👍. I was actually running for a while today and it doesn't seem like the temps get too high. It seems to get to a point and pretty much stay there. I can always keep my finger on the motor or heat sink/heat sink mounting screw area without being burned. Having said that I do like gadgets :)

The mod is great though, and I don't know if it is in my head but it seems like there is less resistance with higher motor belt tension levels using the buhlers. In other words, I can run tighter belt tension on the long belt without getting lots of resistance like with the stock motors. The buhlers may have a bit more internal resistance at the shaft but it seems like the bearings more than make up for that when tension is applied. I am going to make a video at some point to show my internal resistance and just to show the buhler mod installed on my rig.
 
Lol you missed the whole point of LMA's post! Even funnier! :lol:

Yeah the ball bearings help a lot with that. Stock motors felt awful with any extra belt tension. The long belt really doesn't need that much though - I prefer to run it as loose as possible without slipping as it does still influence freewheeling friction.
 
Hahaha, just got it! I am an idiot :banghead: :dunce: :guilty:. I guess since I thought it was spelled a certain way the first time I wrote your user name I kept repeating it that way. I sincerely apologize eKretz, I usually try to give the respect of spelling names correctly at work and online but I guess I was mistaken here. What can I say, spelling is not my thing. I tell you what I will never forget now though 👍.

P.s. As I am writing this I know get the "sith francis" too! I feel so enlightened all at once. Ironically, my friends used to joke with me and say "revenge of the Seth" lol
 
Nick Moxley
What kinda cooling you running seth ? Cheap Probes are available on ebay for 3-5$ with Led back lite screen or non if you want.
Click to expand...

Hey, just to respond directly, I am running the internal motor cooling mod with the usual pump.

I don't have any issues with temps, I just thought it would be cool to have some gauges. I looked at the probe type online, I wasn't sure if the round probes would contact the round motors well enough to give a good reading. I actually looked at digital water temp gauges for cars because they look nice and I think it would be neat to have not only the in game data available for vehicle info but also extra gauges for FFB motor and maybe PCB temps. My concern is the same though as the automotive gauges use round water probes and I don't know what specifications I should look for in a replacement sensor/thermistor. I was looking at styles like the one in the pic below but I don't know what resistance or specifications are correct to use with standard automotive type gauges.

I will have to do some research, hopefully I can find some specs somewhere and I'll know what to use.

B57861_Series.jpg
 
Nick Moxley
Ebay to the rescue,

There's a few different style's to choose from,

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=WH5001+Celsius/Fahrenheit+Digital+Thermometer+Temperature+Meter+Gauge+C/F&_id=131495015344&&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2658

The Round probe is fine, I used ShoeGoo to hold it in place. Just make sure the probe itself is touching the Can.
Click to expand...

Yup, that is similar to the ones I am looking at. It is good to know that the probe type will work, that will make things much easier. There are a few that have the wire style ones but not as many. ShoeGoo is a good idea, I was going to try using some of that white thermal past stuff (the kind that dried somewhat hard) but ShoeGoo should be cheaper and easier to find. Thank you for the advice and info :)

So I have had some more time with the wheel since I last wrote. I'm really loving it, the extra force is just what I needed to really enjoy the CSW V1. For the first time I find myself not needing max force all the time. I just bought a flat 1 rim so I am waiting for that to arrive for some karting. I love the force feedback when driving karts and that rim should feel nice compared to my larger ones. I still haven't tried the mod with my regular elite formula rim, but I imagine it would be pretty intense.

I do have a question though, what is the function currently of the on wheel FFB setting? Is this setting linear, meaning it will simply adjust all forces equally according to the setting or will this setting only reduce the stronger forces? I remember a long time ago reading that this setting will change the FFB linearity because only the strongest forces will be effected but I don't know what the situation is now or if that was even correct. I figured someone here will know better than myself.
 
Yeah, that was fixed quite a few firmwares ago. As I recall it was fixed by the time I tested for the update to the front page of this thread in February 2014. I was kind of surprised when I found that it lowered the power evenly across the whole output, because at that time everyone was still saying not to use the FF setting.
 
Awesome, I'm glad I know for sure now that I am not missing out on any linearity by lowering the on wheel FF setting.

I should have a couple videos coming soon! I am going to post one video with the stock CSW V1, and one video with the Buhler mod CSW. Both videos show the internal resistance (as best I can without a scientific means of measurement), overall constant force at the rim during both hot and cold conditions (using simple fish scale method), and some game play in GT6 on Nordschleife. I feel that GT6 gives very strong FFB, maybe not as accurate as a PC based sim but very strong and does a good job of heating up a wheel. These videos are quite amateur so when I do finally get them uploaded please try not to judge lol. They are likely going to be quite long as well. Both the stock and modded base segments actually took a few videos to make since my battery wouldn't last. I have to figure out how to join them so they become one somewhat fluid video. I will put time stamps in the description so people can just skip to the part they are interested in if they don't want to watch it all.

Once the vids are uploaded to YouTube in the next few days I will post them here :)
 
Hi guys,

I've been following the thread since my GT3 RS v2 developed the notchiness which has been described as the start of the motor failing.

I found a Buehler motor which matched the original Mabuchi motor specs pretty well (1.13.049.202), had some of the original parts machined to fit and pieced it all back together.

I'm now having a problem where when I turn the wheel on, the fans start but the wheel shows a dash " - " on the screen and does not start its calibration routine. I've checked the base input (showing 24V) and that connection to the main board (also 24V). There is a second board stacked on top to which the motor connects and the motor connection itself is showing 0-0.2V. It looks as though the power supply to the second board is broken, or the motor controller/supply is not working. Questions are; am I missing something, and do you guys know how I might go about fixing the problem?

I've emailed Fanatec support, but I'm not particularly hopeful, given some of the stories on here. I would expect them to suggest replacing the PCB, though availability and cost might be an issue.#

Thanks in advance for your input,
Jon
 
If you test at the motor while the wheel is being switched on, is there any voltage while the wheel should be calibrating? I have a gt3 and a gt2 which I can use test different areas of the circuitry to see what reading I get. I would test at the motor, then move back from there until you see voltage. You will have to test at startup though so the wheel attempts calibration. Let me know if you want me to take some measurements. If you post a pic of where you are applying tye probes and seeing .2v, I will test that spot on my wheel(s) and see what I get.
 
Thanks for the quick reply seth, comparison with another board would be really helpful.

I tested the motor by connecting across the power rails and it started to spin, so that appears to be working.

I measured the 0-0.2V at the connection of the motor to the daughter board, at tweezers in the attached photo. Looking this morning it is showing a flat 0V. Last night it the voltage did vary as if something was charging, or potentially some control was limiting the voltage; I'm wary of not getting too focused on this as it seems to be behaving differently today.

I've tested at the power supply connection to the main board (underneath the motor cooling fan in image) which gives 24V. I've tested at the motor which gives 0V. I assume the IC standing vertically is a FET; testing between the farthest and nearest legs (source and drain?) gives 0V, testing between the centre and nearest legs (gate and source/drain) gives ~24V. That would imply that the FET has power and is turned on.

Hopefully my descriptions make sense!

Thanks for your help.
 

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