Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

  • Thread starter eKretz
  • 3,608 comments
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Ok awesome! Thanks for the info Eric. Looks like I unscrewed the wrong screws on the front and the motors and the belt are off track. At this point I'm at a stand still due to not having a small enough tool to reach the 4 hex in rear. Once I get the base open tomorrow hopefully it won't be too difficult to get the belt back on the pulley and inspect the components a bit more. Any advice on what to inspect or any tips on how to improve the wheel in its stock form? I had heard rumor of replacing the grease with oil, those type of things are of interest. Thanks for the help on advance and I am all in on the order for the motors!
 
Colt Rogers
Ok awesome! Thanks for the info Eric. Looks like I unscrewed the wrong screws on the front and the motors and the belt are off track. At this point I'm at a stand still due to not having a small enough tool to reach the 4 hex in rear. Once I get the base open tomorrow hopefully it won't be too difficult to get the belt back on the pulley and inspect the components a bit more. Any advice on what to inspect or any tips on how to improve the wheel in its stock form? I had heard rumor of replacing the grease with oil, those type of things are of interest. Thanks for the help on advance and I am all in on the order for the motors!
Click to expand...

Look back in the last 10-15 or so pages, there are plenty of good suggestions.
 
I just signed up so that would make it minimum 13 atm right (need min 15, $120/motor is more then I can pay).

Regarding payments how is that done, Paypal? Also need to have shipment calculated, any Europeans (Scandinavia in particular) in here that have order already and can let me know how much you payed for shipping of that kit?

Not trolling guys, just a bit nervous and need to get my calculations right so I don´t give promises I cannot keep that´s not very nice.

EDIT: 12 had signed up but now also Colt Rogers + AttilaTheHUN if I understood it correctly?
Since I just signed up as well I think we are at 15 now? :D
 
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Almost wish I could sign up and help out...almost :P

If anyone is on the fence about the signup and motor replacement process and/or want some feedback regarding eKretz, feel free to shoot me a PM, I've used his services twice now and a third prototype is in the works *cough* PS Buttons *cough* 👍


Jerome
 
A tangent thought: I would hazard a guess that this "having stuff done for them" is actually serving to help people engage in learning. When a person doesn't have the experience required it can be extremely daunting, and the net result is often that nothing happens at all. I think the interactions between eK and others create a very healthy learning curve for us mere mortals.

The "hand holding" is not a bad or embarrassing thing at all. Especially if the opportunity to learn is seized.
 
I agree with Lemans..I am not by any means unable to do these things but learning is key. In fact I have learned more about the CSRE in the last day then ever before having taken it apart and put it back together.
I put it all back together and tried it now it appears the belt is slipping when the pulley is turning. Any ideas on how to fix this? Is there a nut or screw for tensioning the belt or pulley? Thanks in advance
 
Well that is great, I hope it encourages more people to get into their wheels and see that they actually can do it, rather than not trying because they think they can't.

The belt tension you probably have an issue with is the reduction pulley to steering shaft on the small pulley. Somewhere around page 42 or so I have a solution for that problem.
 
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Man what would we do without you man...lifesaver. Honestly it isn't so bad once you set back and assess what's what. It's the detailed things I could use help with and it seems as though you have already answered most common issues. Thanks for your time and commitment to helping this community. When I am a millionaire I will repay you for what you've done. Just amazing

This is where I'm at...this thing needed a good detailed clean anyways...






image.jpg
image.jpg
 
Seems I have either messed up what was already on its way out or didn't tighten something correctly...I have very weak tension in the wheel, especially under load in corners. When I test FFB in property page all is normal and strong, except of course for the flickering LEDS on tuning menu. I stretch the pulley as tight as possible while tightening the 3 hex on front of base. Not sure what's up all I do know is that I can't wait for the new motor setup to get in this thing and turn it into the wheel I've always wanted...
 
Probably just your motors. Still though you don't want to run more belt tension than you have to. Just enough to stop the slippage.
 
nubrocket
There are 14 folks signed up at the moment. We've almost hit the first milestone!
Click to expand...

Ok I see, thanks for correction. I based my calculation loosely on this:


Sunday at 3:37 PM - eKretz said: We currently have 12 signed up
Yesterday at 5:42 AM - Colt Rogers sign up
Yesterday at 8:56 AM - AttilaTheHUN sign up
Yesterday at 12:47 PM - I sign up

Not sure where I did wrong but still 14 it is, we there soon enough :D


Regarding power supply for eKretz mod, does it have to be a Meanwell supply would something like this work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-DC-10A-..._Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d47934d0e

Also I´m curious about the USB cord used for the new powers supply, do you make your own?
Do not wanna cut the cord original power supply.
 
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The list is currently at 16. So we made the first notch.

As for the cord: Eh? Power supply doesn't need a USB cord? And any power supply will work - I just recommend the Meanwells because they are reliable, run on almost every residential AC voltage and are easy to get almost anywhere.
 
Ok I see, thanks for info eKretz that´s great news!

I messed up, now I looked closer and see the USB is for signal and power plug is the round connector into CSW base pcb

What is the name of that plug/connector then, I mean can I buy one on for ex Ebay so I do not have to cut the stock cord and steal it´s connector?

I also have another question for you guys regarding the air pumps, I´m very sensitive to noise and even run a very quiet custom water loop in PC cause of that. The pump I have is a high blow GP15 made in Japan by Techno Takatsuki and I bought it a while back for other purposes cause it is quiet compared to many other air pumps, but the air coming out from the tubing is still irritating so I wonder: When led directly into the DC motors will that dampen the noise a bit? Just like it´s dampen when you let´s say put a air stone on it and acts a bit like a muffler?
 
Yes it does dampen it a bit. One of the guys running the Bühlers and air cooling setup has found a pump that he says works really good and is quiet; @geg1020 will hopefully come and post up about it for you guys.

I just used the plug from my stock supply for mine, so I don't have a line on where to get one exactly - I'm sure you can find something through the usual channels like DigiKey or Mouser. Perhaps even Amazon or eBay.
 
Here is a suggestion which I have found to work *extremely* well for over a year if you are motor modding a Fanatec CSR-E or CSW. This might help other true DIY modders such as folks like me, or commercial projects such as the one in this thread when the design is improved at some point in the future. I've had some email correspondence with some of you not actively posting about their efforts, there are some very good ideas out there. Some do not want to post as it can lead to the "ugh" feeling which I have noticed personally. That is a shame. Meanwhile the Physics of it all is what it is regardless.

One drive pulley is better than two. If you can, use ONE. If you absolutely must use two drive pulleys, don't do it in the stock manner, there are more effective strategies.

Besides being cheaper (one beefier motor instead of two), a one pulley rig allows the belt drive to function more efficiently. It is certainly a part of how I got my wheel working so well. Chosen wisely, your single motor can have both more torque and less inertia / friction than two motor concepts. More of the motor's drive makes it to the wheel rim.

Let's look at the stock belt drive for a moment.

Feeling-Tense_zps92dadd7a.png


With this concept two identical motors (at pulley "B" and "C") are equally driven to create the FFB forces. The two motors are independent hence there will be three belt tensions presented to the drive. The highest will be seen by motor "B". This is because to it's left it sees the total tension both motors create ignoring preload. While on the other side it sees the tension created by motor "C". Motor "C" sees less belt tension if you follow the same thought process. Well things like belt install tension, the belt "wrap" angle, and in-use tension affect how much grip the belt and pulley can create.

What happens when you drive this two drive pulley setup hard and belt slip occurs? Well it will slip at pulley "C" all the time. Since that pulley sees less tension and a bit less wrap angle than pulley "B". Reverse the directions and then pulley "B" slips and slides.

So what I do instead is use ONE drive pulley. This results in around a 150-160º wrap angle. You wind up needing much less belt tension to minimize slip, which helps cut drag. Motor shaft bending and bearing loads are slashed. More force reaches the wheel rim instead of it being wasted with drive inefficiency and higher thermals. Choosing your motor carefully you wind up with much lower inertia than the Buhler approach. I probably have about 5-10% the Buhler motor inertia loads. Remember that the motors turn around 17 times faster than the wheel rim, therefore the impact of their rotational inertia is similarly magnified. Which again helps slash drag and wheel correction speed. You get grip with much lower belt tension requirements. Note that belt drives lose some efficiency right as the belt enters the pulley (rubber distorts/stretches), and then some when the belt leaves the pulley. If you run two drive pulleys at the necessarily higher belt tensions needed to cut slip at pulley "C" you wind up with well over double the belt ingress/egress drag. Since there are TWO entries and TWO exits all of which take place under higher belt tension than a one pulley drive requires.

This is all born out in the theoretical calculations in Engineering texts and in simulations such as MITCalc. And in practice. Let's suppose I drive ONE pulley in a two drive pulley setup to a high load with no slip. The driven pulley is locked in place. Note the amperage consumed (which is directly proportional to torque). Now add drive to the other pulley and observe the amperage as you twist the knob on your lab power supply upward. There are a number of variables however in some of my tests you'd start getting the second pulley ("C") to start slipping when it is fed with about 1/3 the current being fed to pulley "B". Clearly pulley "C" is an issue. In the stock Fanatec and now Killer-B installs, the same exact problems exist and so this is handled or covered up by jacking the belt tension higher than is actually needed to hit a given FFB force at the wheel rim. Leading to needlessly high drag, more heat load, and slower than necessary countersteer.

If one simply wants a more reliable Fanatec, you can DIY a one motor mod with higher torque than stock, less inertia / drag and higher wheel speed (this all helps track speed due to faster countersteer) for an inexpensive price. Like 30-50 bux or thereabouts. Sometimes a lot less. You can do way more torque than stock too of course, and also slash drag massively but that is another story involving additional basic Engineering concepts.

Now some may not like this post however the theory is good and it really works well in practice. Maybe some of you can benefit from it? Or you can at least know that devices can always be improved. I still find little things that help wheel performance even after my lengthy mod process. For instance the lower drag and more reliable zero-contact steering shaft harness shown below. I DIY though (which few do) and so I don't have to wait for someone to start selling a product, nor see that some have some easily resolvable tech or frustrating forum issues that are part of the deal. I'm more focussed on brushless / servo / other drives at the moment in any event, fun stuff.

OnePulleyIsBetterThanTwo_zpsd7b4968e.png


shaft-harness_zps6c6e22e6.jpg
 
Using a single motor drive will reduce belt friction but to get equal torque you need to use a larger motor which increases motor friction. Also kills linearity since the larger motors take more to get moving. Not a very good trade-off according to your other thread which got canned due to your lack of sharing. If you had bothered to continue following this thread rather than having a hissy fit and deleting all your earlier posts you'd see that switching to a single motor has already been discussed several times by several different posters, myself included. Also one still must deal with the massive amounts of heat generated at stall - regardless of whether you have reduced free-wheeling drag or not. You know very well that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be in order to troll my mod.

The belt slack issue was known at least a couple years ago as it was pointed out by the Japanese mod guy who is linked in the first post of this very thread. One approach to mitigate that is to use 2 separate drive belts, one for each motor. However, it's pretty well a non-issue, as even with 250%+ of stock torque the slippage isn't noticeable and can't be felt if the belts are properly tensioned.

I would appreciate your not trolling the mod thread with your posts if you aren't going to elaborate on how to go about any of your "wonder mods" for the guys who might want to try them.
 
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Also, the wire loom/wrap down the center shaft is fine but I have no idea why one would want to use such an approach when the slip ring is better all around. The problem with the stock setup is crap quality control. They left a sharp corner that is basically a knife edge on many of the steering shafts that acts as a saw basically cutting through the wires slowly but surely if they rub. Some wheels have a radiused steering shaft and those don't harm the wires at all. See the following photos to spot the difference. At bare minimum you should radius or at least deburr your steering shaft if it looks like the 2nd or 3rd pics. The other thing to worry about is whether the factory got the strain relief right on the other end of the cable. If not the wires eventually stress/flex the solder joint enough to break it free. Both of these problems as well as all friction is completely taken care of by a slip ring.

Properly radiused bore/face intersection:



Knige-edged bore/face intersection due to improperly formed chamfer:



 
Afternoon fellow CSW / CSRE Enthusiasts.

Ekretz, now that we are at 16 are we good to order the first batch or are we waiting to hit 30 respondents?

I'm good with the 15+ price, as it's only a $30-$40 difference.
 
I think we'll probably wait at least a bit longer to see if there's enough interest to get the next break, but I'll leave that up to the respondents. @nubrocket is there any chance you could set us up a quick poll?
 
From the 16 ppls how many selected the first option ($70 per motor) only? (I'm happy with the 15+ price too and don't expect to get 30+ anytime soon)
  • I am willing to pay $70 per motor ($140 for the pair), if 30+ people participate
  • I am willing to pay $85 per motor ($170 for the pair), if 15-30 people participate
  • I am willing to pay $120 per motor ($240 for the pair), if only 1-15 people participate.
 
eKretz
Yes it does dampen it a bit. One of the guys running the Bühlers and air cooling setup has found a pump that he says works really good and is quiet; @geg1020 will hopefully come and post up about it for you guys.

I just used the plug from my stock supply for mine, so I don't have a line on where to get one exactly - I'm sure you can find something through the usual channels like DigiKey or Mouser. Perhaps even Amazon or eBay.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks, suspected that will have at least some muffling effect. Will wait and see results on the other guys pump, keep my eyes open. Regarding the plug I found one on Ebay that says 5.5mm + 1.7mm hole in center, if order and it fit I´ll post here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-5-5x1-7m...=Laptop_Adapters_Chargers&hash=item20e3066a8a

Regarding the motor doc I am ok with the $85/motor alternative as well so lets see where it take us?
 
eKretz
I think we'll probably wait at least a bit longer to see if there's enough interest to get the next break, but I'll leave that up to the respondents. @nubrocket is there any chance you could set us up a quick poll?
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I may opt to send out a (bcc) email to those who signed up to give them a chance to reply with their thoughts. I was considering doing that anyway, given that it's been a few weeks and I'm curious if anyone signed up that may have had a change of mind & heart. Life happens, after all.

vittorio
From the 16 ppls how many selected the first option ($70 per motor) only? (I'm happy with the 15+ price too and don't expect to get 30+ anytime soon)
  • I am willing to pay $70 per motor ($140 for the pair), if 30+ people participate
  • I am willing to pay $85 per motor ($170 for the pair), if 15-30 people participate
  • I am willing to pay $120 per motor ($240 for the pair), if only 1-15 people participate.
Click to expand...

Great question. As a heads up I changed the form slightly to facilitate answering this in the future. The price ranges are now multiple choice instead of "check all that apply." That makes way more sense anyway. For those who have already responded I kept the highest price you selected when you filled out the form.

There are currently 15 people signed up. It looks like 16 when you look at the sheet but that's because the top row is just a header row.

Of those 15:

  • 1 person is in only if we hit the 30+ mark
  • 9 are only in if we hit 15 people
  • 5 are whole hog, no matter what
 
That's great looks and maybe the 1 person in the minority would reconsider due to the timing and relatively small price difference.
Also I am curious as to which other mods I MUST complete in order for the new motors to be properly installed and working?
Eric, do you have a comprehensive list of mods or equipment that we can purchase from you?
Just want to have everything covered for when the motors come in.
Thanks in advance
 
You don't need to purchase any mods if you can do the work yourself. If you don't have that capability then I offer a bunch of different options. The most popular seems to be a "drop-in" motor block which comes with a new motor mount, new pulleys, new wire harness with plug and mods to the motors, cooling kit parts etc. Everything internal to the wheel and the quick release fittings to hook your tubing to on the outside. You'll also need to pick up an air pump, tubing, splitter/tee and power supply on your own. The cost of the drop-in block is $220 plus the motor cost. If you want to send me your stock motor mount and pulleys to mod that will knock some off the cost.
 

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