Ferrari to take their toys and go home

  • Thread starter Sureboss
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Mt. Lynx
It´s not the budgetcap that´s the issue here, it´s two-tier system that is the milliondollar question. I´m pretty sure there will be a budgetcap, but at say 60 million or so, so that we´ll get rid of the two rulesets.
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But Ecclestone has already said the two-tier system is not only dead in the water, but that he thought it was a stupid idea to begin with.
 
Soundtrack
Case rejected.
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Thank the stars. If the case had gone through and the budget cap abandoned, we probably wouldn't be seeing any new teams for 2010.

Soundtrack
I doubt we'll see an agreement by friday...
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Actually, it might be possible after all: in the time since the injunction was filed, Ecclestone has said thatthe major sticking point of the new regulations - the two-tier system - has been abandoned. Ferrari were acting as Ferrari - not as FOTA - when they lodged that injunction, so it may well be that the other teams will agree to it now that the proposal has been scrapped.
 
Epsilon Euskadi could be interesting...

Williams would be bumped back up the ranks methinks...
 
Official Ferrari press release

Maranello, 20th May 2009- Ferrari has noted the verdict of the Tribunal de Grande Instance with regards to the request to suspend with all haste the consequences of the decision taken by the FIA World Council on 29th April.

The existence and validity of Ferrari’s right of veto, as sanctioned in a written agreement with the FIA Senate, were recognized by the Court, as was the fact that this dispute is of a contractual nature. Consequently, it was also recognized that the dispute was not a matter for the internal tribunal of the FIA, but rather a matter for normal civil courts. The Court believed that the right of veto should have been exercised during the World Council meetings of 17th March and 29th April. It therefore chose to let the civil law courts rule on the urgency of the matter.

Such a decision, which is not prejudicial to the outcome of the matter, allows the FIA to impose on those teams entered in the 2010 world championship, regulations that have been drawn up unilaterally without respecting the agreed procedures. In the final analysis, Ferrari has been forced to use its right of veto, in defence of its own interests and those of all the teams participating in the Formula 1 World Championship.

While continuing to evaluate whether or not to continue with this legal action already underway, Ferrari confirms its commitment to work within FOTA in conjunction with the FIA and the Commercial Rights Holder to ensure that Formula 1 is a series where the rules are the same for everyone and which benefits from stability in the regulations, while continuing the work of the past few months in moving forward methodically and gradually towards reducing costs.

If it is not possible for all parties to reach agreement, then in line with the decision of the Main Board, taken on 12th May, Ferrari will not enter its cars in a competition that, with the planned scenario in place, would see a watering down of the characteristics that have endowed Formula 1 with the status of the most important motor sport series and that have specifically led to the Maranello marque’s uninterrupted participation in the world championship since 1950. In this situation, Ferrari will continue to compete in races of a calibre worthy of the marque, matching its level of innovation and technological research.
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Taken from: www.ferrari.com


EDIT:

Kristensen: Sportscars are the future

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75438


Alonso: Worried over his F1 future

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75445
 
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The worst thing is that people seem to think that Ferrari is F1. Yes, Ferrari has been a part of F1 for a long time now, but there are other teams that were very big (Lotus, Ligier, Alfa Romeo) that left the sport, yet F1 is still enjoying a very wide viewing population. If Ferrari leaves, F1 won' change a thing. It's just a matter of a new page being turned over.
 
Bram Turismo
The worst thing is that people seem to think that Ferrari is F1. Yes, Ferrari has been a part of F1 for a long time now, but there are other teams that were very big (Lotus, Ligier, Alfa Romeo) that left the sport, yet F1 is still enjoying a very wide viewing population. If Ferrari leaves, F1 won' change a thing. It's just a matter of a new page being turned over.
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Its sad also that when those teams/names left, it wasn't noticed (well, you know what I mean). Ligier and Lotus in particular it was very sad to see those names die. The loss of Ferrari will still be a blow but it won't be the end of the sport and I have doubts whether the tifosi will side completely with Ferrari's decision. We will see.
 
My true worries are that sportscar racing will now be overrun by financially very strong participants, and excalate everything to F1 levels. And where will all the drivers go??

But on the other hand, I would love to see both Toyota and Ferrari in LMP1, and hopefully Ferrari in other classes aswell (read: GT1).
 
Call me a conspiracist, but it doesn't strike me as a coincidence that Mosley has been at loggerheads continuously with two of the most influential figures in F1 - Ron Dennis and Luca di Montezemolo. It raises my suspicions when, immediately after the removal of Ron Dennis from F1, Mosley turns his cannons to Ferrari, after years of cuddling with them and giving them special privileges and veto rights; all of a sudden F1 doesn't need Ferrari? Could it be because they only needed them to keep McLaren and Ferrari from joining forces against him, and thus creating an urgent threat to his ambitions of control? Hmm....I smell a rat here...
 
Perhaps, but then McLaren are to blame :lol: Unless Max was telling McLaren what to do in Australia?

Considering that everything Max has said so far is pretty reasonable and the only response from the manufacturers is whining that they are what makes F1 and not small teams, I'll side with Max this time around even if this was some plot to seperate FOTA, though its sad that the one chance we had of some balance in power in the sport, its taken away instantly.

Still, we will have to see....for all we know, next year all of the manufacturers could still be racing.
 
Bram Turismo
The worst thing is that people seem to think that Ferrari is F1. Yes, Ferrari has been a part of F1 for a long time now,
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its not a "long time" its, Since it started, since it formed, since it began!
 
Ferrari indeed is F1. I'm not the biggest Ferrari fan, and hated them throughout the Schumacher era - though I like them a lot more since the end of 2007 - but there's no denying that they're an icon, the symbol of F1. Ask kiddies "Name an F1 team" and no one will answer "Williams" before "Ferrari".

And frankly, a series without McLaren, Ferrari, Renault and Red Bull, Toyota and BMW is no longer F1. Red Bull and Toyota may be newish teams, but that's most of the current grid.
 
McLaren will stay in Formula 1, so will Red Bull, now that the two tier concept has been scrapped. Not sure about Renault, but they won't be that missed, I think.

Ferrari will, if course be missed, but F1 can survive without them. There's no Ferrari in WTCC, there's no Ferrari in WRC, there's no Ferrari in Le Mans Series (fighting for the overall win) so many racing series can and do survive - and have fans and followers - without Ferrari being there.

Of course F1 won't be the same without Ferrari. But I don't think Mosley cares a bit about that (Bernie probably does, however).

It will be Mosley's F1. "Low" cost, FIA dominated. But probably with interesting races to watch.
 
Actually, a thought just occured to me: everyone says Bernie and Max are doing their best to get divide the teams and get rid of FOTA, but who is the head of FOTA? Di Montezemolo. And which team has the power to veto technical regulations that they do not like (and without having to consut the other teams? Ferrari. There's a huge power imbalance right there ... what if all Mosely and Ecclestone are trying to do is nullify Ferrari's extracurricular powers so that all the teams are of equal standing? It's easy to be a cynic and say that such a situation will make it easier for the FIA to crush FOTA, but you have to admit there's a lot of double-standards going on: Ferrari didn't like the concept of one set of teams playing by a different set of rules to the other teams, and yet they're the ones who have powers that the other teams don't. I'm beginning to suspect Bernie and Max's endgame is to undo the 'favouritism' (for want of a better word) they showed Ferrari in paying them to stay in the championship, giving them the technical veto and the perceived bias in Ferrari's favour when it comes to marshalling decisions.

Wow. Typing it out like that makes me think that there have been some big problems with Formula One for years, and now it's all starting to come out.
 
Small_Fryz
its not a "long time" its, Since it started, since it formed, since it began!
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Metar
Ferrari indeed is F1.
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No argument possible on this. But since they are Formula 1, since they are born competitors and since they have racing encoded deep into their DNA, why just not accept the challenge? Should they have way too much money running in their F1 facilities they could always s(p)end some to rebuild the Abruzzo.
 
I do wonder exactly about that. They'd obviously have troubles downsizing the massive facilities - lots of redundancies and such - but they should manage...

Especially, I wonder about Renault. ING is pulling out, and they've been often rumoured to pull out under the current rate of spending - that budget cap should've been a blessing.
 
Hun200kmh
McLaren will stay in Formula 1, so will Red Bull, now that the two tier concept has been scrapped. Not sure about Renault, but they won't be that missed, I think.
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Actually, Ian Philips (Force India director of business affairs, been with the team ever since the early 90s) on BBC practice 2 commentary made suggestions of an "outside power" affecting Red Bull's reasoning with the budget cap.......(he said he didn't want to say too much, he'd prefer to just leave it as that).

Seeing as Horner and Briatore are good friends, I'm guessing Renault are the "outside power".
 
Well, maybe friendship isn't the key word here. I never thought of that really, but now I just realized who provides the engines for Red Bull (Renault) and for STR (Ferrari) ... ;)

PS - But, if that's the case, a similar problem must be concerning Frank Williams, because Toyota seems to be also seriously considering to drop out of F1.


PPS - Anyway, some engine supplier will have to be found for all the newcomers, I don't think BMW and Mercedes will be able (and willing) to supply the whole grid.
 
Well Frank has little choice as Williams only exists for F1 which is the key point here about the manufacturers and their loyalty to F1.
Its interesting to see what happens with engine suppliers actually, would some manufacturers still sell engines regardless just for the media coverage? I think some would but yes, its still a problem for some.

I imagine most would just switch to Cosworth and perhaps the FIA would lift the engine freeze if the new/current teams protested using the same engine and wished for other alternatives.
 
I´m pretty sure there is a loophole in that contract somewhere, like if they stay as an engine supplier they´re off the hook or something.

But F1 tend to have a few really ridiculous contracts. The commercial rights contract is for example valid for 100 years! What would happen if the commercial value of F1 suddenly took a deep dive, and was unpopular amongst the sponsors, and thus the TV-channels? Would BE be bankrupted?
 
It's like an amalgamation of 2007 and 2008. Politics taking prescedence and ruining what credibility Formula One has. If we could all stop suing and countersuing, that would be lovely, thanks.
 
Tired Tyres
I didn't know Ferrari had signed a "I promise to take part in F1 forever" contract.
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This could be a very serious threat. I can't recollect where I read this, so I don't have any sources to back up what I'm going to say next, but ...

I think the Ferrari/FIA contract was celebrated in 2005, and expires in 2012. I also think that FOM (BE) either signed that same contract or one other simultaneous one with Ferrari.

The FIA contract gave Ferrari (that's all we know about it at this moment) the power to veto regulation changes.

The FOM contract gave Ferrari commercial advantages.

What did Ferrari give in exchange, both to the FIA and FOM?

I can't be sure, but probably they commited to F1 until the end of the same period.

Now, if they leave, they'll have a huge problem. Apparently, the french court decided that Ferrari indeed has contractual veto powers, but the injunction was lost just because - apparently - Ferrari didn't use them at the right moment.

So, there's no breach of contractual obligations from the FIA.

IF indeed Ferrari has the obligation to remain in F1, and if the other parties didn't violate their own obligations, then Ferrari has to stay.

Or face the possibility of paying billions to FOM, that will have no trouble in explaining why F1 revenues will drop drastically if Ferrari leaves the series.


The plot thickens ...
 
Hun200kmh
Now, if they leave, they'll have a huge problem. Apparently, the french court decided that Ferrari indeed has contractual veto powers, but the injunction was lost just because - apparently - Ferrari didn't use them at the right moment.
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Actually, the way I'm interpreting it - and I could be wrong here - is that the French courts sided with the FIA and threw the injunction out not because Ferrari mis-timed their veto, but because they didn't use the veto at all and instead went straight to a court of law. Why Ferrari did that, I have no idea, but they simply went to a higher authority than the FIA instead of going throug the proper channels.
 
@ Do you Race?

This is the Ferrari press release after the court's decision. I'll bold the relevant part:

Official Ferrari press release

Maranello, 20th May 2009- Ferrari has noted the verdict of the Tribunal de Grande Instance with regards to the request to suspend with all haste the consequences of the decision taken by the FIA World Council on 29th April.

The existence and validity of Ferrari’s right of veto, as sanctioned in a written agreement with the FIA Senate, were recognized by the Court, as was the fact that this dispute is of a contractual nature. Consequently, it was also recognized that the dispute was not a matter for the internal tribunal of the FIA, but rather a matter for normal civil courts. The Court believed that the right of veto should have been exercised during the World Council meetings of 17th March and 29th April. It therefore chose to let the civil law courts rule on the urgency of the matter.

Such a decision, which is not prejudicial to the outcome of the matter, allows the FIA to impose on those teams entered in the 2010 world championship, regulations that have been drawn up unilaterally without respecting the agreed procedures. In the final analysis, Ferrari has been forced to use its right of veto, in defence of its own interests and those of all the teams participating in the Formula 1 World Championship.

While continuing to evaluate whether or not to continue with this legal action already underway, Ferrari confirms its commitment to work within FOTA in conjunction with the FIA and the Commercial Rights Holder to ensure that Formula 1 is a series where the rules are the same for everyone and which benefits from stability in the regulations, while continuing the work of the past few months in moving forward methodically and gradually towards reducing costs.

If it is not possible for all parties to reach agreement, then in line with the decision of the Main Board, taken on 12th May, Ferrari will not enter its cars in a competition that, with the planned scenario in place, would see a watering down of the characteristics that have endowed Formula 1 with the status of the most important motor sport series and that have specifically led to the Maranello marque’s uninterrupted participation in the world championship since 1950. In this situation, Ferrari will continue to compete in races of a calibre worthy of the marque, matching its level of innovation and technological research.
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Ah. Well, because a lot of this is happening behind closed doors and because a lot of it is being fuelled by emotion more than rationale, a lot of people are only getting half the story. For example, people keep acting as if the two-tier system is still going to go ahead despite Ecclestone coming out before the Monaco Grand Prix and saying that not only is it off the table, but that it was a stupid idea to begin with. If he says it's gone, I'd say it's a fair wager that it's gone.
 
Pardon the double-post, but overnight the conflict seems to have come a step closer to resolution:

Teams still united, confirms di Montezemolo

22 May 2009

All Formula One teams remain on talking terms and united, according to Luca di Montezemolo, as the dispute rages over the FIA's £40m budget cap ahead of next season. The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) met in Monte-Carlo on Friday with just one week remaining before the entry deadline for the 2010 World Championship.

Formula 1 team bosses met with FIA president Max Mosley and commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone on Friday afternoon in Monaco onboard the luxury yacht of Renault's Flavio Briatore. "As always there's been a very good meeting, with a very good atmosphere and we are all together," FOTA and Ferrari president di Montezemolo told Reuters. "We will be in position to go to the chairman of the FIA saying, in a very constructive but very clear way, the position of FOTA.

"What is most important is that our views of the future are absolutely in common; we want to be in Formula One, we don't want something else."
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This I'm interpreting as good news: FOTA have united under a plan. Rather than having to deal with no less than three factions in the ranks - Ferrari with their court case, the renegade Toyota, Red Bull, Renault and the fourth team threatneing to withdraw whose name escapes me right now and everyone else in FOTA - the FIA will be dealing with a single entity. One has to wonder which line FOTA are taking, but now that Ecclestone has said the two-tier system has been abandoned, I'd say FOTA would be much more amenable to the budget cap as a whole. I'm also wondering what that 'something else' di Motezemolo mentioned; whether he means departing for another series like IndyCar or LMS or whether he means that the FIA's proposed regulations will turn Formula One into something else is unclear. I'm seriously hoping he means the former.
 

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