Ferrari to take their toys and go home

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people keep acting as if the two-tier system is still going to go ahead despite Ecclestone coming out before the Monaco Grand Prix and saying that not only is it off the table, but that it was a stupid idea to begin with. If he says it's gone, I'd say it's a fair wager that it's gone.

This may well be Bernie’s personal interpretation, I’m afraid. So far 2010’s Sporting and technical regulations are unchanged. So unless all the teams run as “Cost regulated” there could well be a so called “two-tier” competition.

Competitors who have agreed to abide by the regulations governing the voluntary cost cap for the Championship year, ("Cost-Regulated Teams") will be permitted certain additional freedoms where specifically stated within these regulations.

however:

Changes to these or to the sporting regulations which, in the opinion of the FIA Technical Department, involve significant change to the design of a car, will be announced no later than 30 June to come into force for the next season but one. Changes needed for safety reasons may be introduced with shorter notice in consultation with the currently competing teams.

So there might well be some time/room for accommodations. But since 2 newcomers already signed in, I don’t expect a major rewriting.
 
picture.php

Just put "Do you Race?" 's sig here ...​


:D
 
So there might well be some time/room for accommodations. But since 2 newcomers already signed in, I don’t expect a major rewriting.

The 2009 rules were only finalized on June 30ths last year - until then, everyone worked knowing their work might be overturned.

Yeah, but Bernie isn't nearly as cool as Nathan Fillion.

No one is as cool as Captain Tightpants.
 
I sadly watched Serenity and Firefly the wrong way around, but it didn't make it any less awesome.

Jayne, the man they call Jayne

He robbed from the rich
And he gave to the poor
Stood up to the man
And gave him what for
Our love for him now
Ain't hard to explain
The hero of Canton
The man they call Jayne


:P
 
Mercedes have a solution:
Mercedes develops budget cap proposal

28 May 2009

Mercedes' Norbert Haug has developed a possible solution to the ongoing budget cap row as Friday's entry deadline for the 2010 championship looms ever closer. The German manufacturer has put its suggestions forward to the FIA which, in-turn, is contacting all teams for consideration of the 'Mercedes Initiative'.

With Toyota, Red Bull, Renault and Ferrari having threatened to walk away from the sport and with no official agreement announced between the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) and F1 governing body the FIA, the Mercedes-Benz Motorsport vice president put his last-minute idea forward to FIA president Max Mosley.

The 'Mercedes Initiative', contrived by Haug, would involve the following:
  • a £100m budget cap for 2010
  • in exchange for this, teams must offer assistance to new entrants, such as providing cheaper components and sharing technical advice
  • teams must commit to the sport until the end of the 2012 season
  • from the start of 2011, a £40m budget cap will be in place
With time running out for teams to make a decision with regards to entering next year's World Championship, the scheme - if put forward at the last moment - would see the current £40m spending limit put back by a year with a significantly higher amount of £100m being allowed for next season. The plan, first mentioned in Monaco's meetings last weekend, has been described to The Times by a source close to Mercedes as 'clarity and certainty'.
Sounds pretty reasonable. The FIA get what they want in the shape of a budet cap, but the teams aren't stymied by major restrictions straight away, and instead work their way down. And the new teams don't get compromised by being unable to meet the maximum expenditure because they get discounts and technical know-how.

There's also been the talk that customer chassis might come back in for 2010 only simply to bridge the gap between then and a future with a budget cap in it (it's not in the article, I know). If that's the case, how many teams are going to be lining up for the Brawn BGP-001 and the Red Bull RB5? Would that be cause for concern, with new teams buying the best chassis available? Or will it be negated by the evolution of the cars for 2010 and/or the fact that Toro Rosso's STR-4 is essentially the same as the RB5 but they have proven that a good chassis does not guarantee good results?
 
That sounds like a good idea. It looks like it depends on the cheaper components and shared technical data details.
 
It looks like the "Mercedes Initiative" is well on it’s way:tup:. While Prodrive confirms 2010 entry:

"The level of next year's cost cap has risen substantially since we originally considered entering," said Richards.

Source
 
Go MotoGP Formula! So that these F1 squabbles come to an end anytime soon. It seems quite possible that the eight teams walk away to this good alternative now that Mosley have become completely insanely unrealistic about his demands. MotoGP holds a great brand as well as F1 and leaves regulation to the participants. What if Williams and Force India are left alone tied to F1 next year with a bunch of weird newcomers? They won't look so clever then. Poor Codemasters that will have bought an expensive licence that is suddenly bereaved of it's prestige and glamour.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090608195413.shtml
 
I didn't think of teams like Lola, Prodrive/Aston Martin, Lotus or March as "weird newcomers" but what the hey.
Its about time people realise F1 has never been all about the manufacturers.
 
seems quite possible that the eight teams walk away to this good alternative now that Mosley have become completely insanely unrealistic about his demands.
It's all on Mosley, isn't it? There's an expression: it takes two to tango. If FOTA were so concerned about the budget cap, why did they not raise their doubts soner? Why did all the teams go their own way to begin with rather than unify? If Mosely is so evil and intend on drving the teams away, why did he just offer them a lifeline?
'Up to you' - Mosley writes to teams

09 June 2009

With Friday drawing ever closer, Max Mosley has contacted all FOTA teams in a final bid to persuade their confirmed entries to next year's World Championship; in doing so, the FIA president has informed competitors that rules regarding a €45m budget cap cannot be modified without the blessing of all competitors, therefore recommending teams to sign up before meeting to discuss the matter.

This Friday, June 12, will see the FIA release the full line-up for the 2010 season, consisting of 13 teams and a subsequent total of 26 cars, which - in theory - was to be the current ten teams plus three new entrants. However, with the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA - currently representing all teams bar Williams and Force India) haven't stated that their entries will be declared invalid unless the budget cap is removed, Mosley explained the following:

'Under the International Sporting Code (Article 66) we cannot now change the published 2010 rules unless we have the consent of all the competitors who have entered. However, once we have a list of confirmed entries, we can make changes provided we have the necessary unanimous agreement.

'You therefore have the option of participating in this process as a confirmed entrant, or not. In order to participate, you should now write to us confirming that your entry is unconditional. It is of course up to you, but the simplest way to ensure that all entrants run under the same rules would be if everyone entered under the cost-cap rules as published and then all entrants cooperated to agree modifications to those rules which would make the proposition workable for all parties.'

The nine teams concerned have until the end of Friday to verify their entrance to F1 2010 with the FIA.
Mosely will have his unanimous agreement because FOTA are already standing together. By pointing out the above passage, he's offering them the opportunity to continue negotiations beyond Friday.

A rival championship will not work for the simple fact that FOTA cannot referee and compete at the same time.
 
I admit "weird newcomers" was a bit strong, newcomers are welcome, it's not their fault FIA is doing away with F1 being the best racing championship in the world with the best technology and the best drivers. I do side with FOTA in this. If Max doesn't budge I hope they do break away and create their own series and the Williams can happily stay in F1. They don't really care about racing in the best league anyway, they just wanna marry FIA (as admitted by Frank Williams. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75959)

By pointing out the above passage, he's offering them the opportunity to continue negotiations beyond Friday.
You must be joking? "Surrender all your opinions and we might do some more talking" looks like a reasonable deal to you? Insanely uncompromising is what it is.
 
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Don't double post.

Two separate championships would not work. You might not have noticed but there's an economic downturn at the moment. Either the F1 teams reduce budgets or F1 dies. Mosley is trying to prevent that from happening.
 
Don't double post.

Two separate championships would not work. You might not have noticed but there's an economic downturn at the moment. Either the F1 teams reduce budgets or F1 dies. Mosley is trying to prevent that from happening.
You might not have noticed, but the teams are not against cost cutting.
 
What if Williams and Force India are left alone tied to F1 next year with a bunch of weird newcomers? They won't look so clever then. Poor Codemasters that will have bought an expensive licence that is suddenly bereaved of it's prestige and glamour.

Weird newcomers like Brawn, Red Bull, Toro Rosso or Force India, all of which have been around for no longer than four years? Give it a season or two and these weird newcomers have become household names.

MotoGP needs the major motorcycle manufacturers, it's always been their base. Essentially, to the casual fan and the man on the street, a MotoGP bike looks just like a road sports bike. F1 cars don't look anything like a car you'd see on the street, so the public doesn't register the link between a TF109 and a Avensis in the same way they would a Yamaha YZR-M1 and a Yamaha YZF-R1. F1 prospered for years with very few manufacturer teams. So it can easily do so again.
 
You must be joking? "Surrender all your opinions and we might do some more talking" looks like a reasonable deal to you? Insanely uncompromising is what it is.
Far more reasonable than creating a splinter championship that won't survive because it cannot be organised in time and because FOTA cannot race and referee at the same time with the FIA championship dying because it is made up of all new teams. It might make for half a championship, but last time I checked, half a championship is more than no championship. And with FOTA being so united, do you really think they're going to let the FIA walk all over them? Of course not! If things don't go their way, they can always withdraw entirely.

Your problem is that you're basing your opinion of Mosley's comments on his previous decisions, decisions which have no bearing on this one. You're too quick to want Mosley gone without considering that in the here and now he could be offering a solution that ends this fight on terms everyone agrees wth.
 
The Budget Cap is the best way to cut costs... But only in an ideal world. One where we don't have multi-national corporations hellbent on getting the best performance, and with the accountants to hide that extra money. Or moving a factory to India for cheaper labour. It'd be a bit of a farce to have to disqualify the championship leader because they found Brawn's extra wind-tunnel in Siberia or, more obviously, that spare MP-4/25 in the Mercedes tunnels, next to a 2012 E-Class. Or that suddenly, the Mugello tracks gives Ferrari 20 test-hours worth of vouchers.
 
Weird newcomers like Brawn, Red Bull, Toro Rosso or Force India, all of which have been around for no longer than four years? Give it a season or two and these weird newcomers have become household names.
I was faster than you ;)
I admit "weird newcomers" was a bit strong, newcomers are welcome, it's not their fault FIA is doing away with F1 being the best racing championship in the world with the best technology and the best drivers.
Far more reasonable than creating a splinter championship that won't survive because it cannot be organised in time and because FOTA cannot race and referee at the same time with the FIA championship dying because it is made up of all new teams. It might make for half a championship, but last time I checked, half a championship is more than no championship. And with FOTA being so united, do you really think they're going to let the FIA walk all over them? Of course not! If things don't go their way, they can always withdraw entirely.

Your problem is that you're basing your opinion of Mosley's comments on his previous decisions, decisions which have no bearing on this one. You're too quick to want Mosley gone without considering that in the here and now he could be offering a solution that ends this fight on terms everyone agrees wth.
I'm a bit confused with what you mean. The teams have concerns about the new regulation. These concerns are recognised as reasonable concerns by most people following the sport. The teams recognise the need to cut costs and propose their way of doing it and explain why FIAs plan is thought of as unreasonble. Normally, two parties that want to solve things for the best of all sit down and talk. Max then thinks about the situation carefully and then says "my way or the highway". It's the optimal stance to pick a serious fight or to tear down the whole creation.

Ezpeleta takes command of the regulating in a MotoGP Formula championship. The teams race. Looks like a reasonable start to me. I'm not thinking about what happens to F1. It might crash and burn or survive in its new form with the new keen teams.

The
 
You want a rival series to break away, don't you? You want to prove that Mosley is bad for the sport and that it can survive without him, but at the same time you're risking everything about the sport. Proving Mosley wrong will do nothing other than prove him wrong; any other perceived benefit from it can be found another way at considerably less risk.
 
I admit "weird newcomers" was a bit strong, newcomers are welcome, it's not their fault FIA is doing away with F1 being the best racing championship in the world with the best technology and the best drivers. I do side with FOTA in this. If Max doesn't budge I hope they do break away and create their own series and the Williams can happily stay in F1. They don't really care about racing in the best league anyway, they just wanna marry FIA (as admitted by Frank Williams. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75959)

Williams already had their hands tied because they supply and support Formula 2.
 
You want a rival series to break away, don't you? You want to prove that Mosley is bad for the sport and that it can survive without him, but at the same time you're risking everything about the sport. Proving Mosley wrong will do nothing other than prove him wrong; any other perceived benefit from it can be found another way at considerably less risk.
If it stands between Mosley highway or breakaway series then I prefer seeing a breakaway series. Best thing would be if Mosley started agreeing on compromise solution but the latest events rather point in the opposite direction.
 
dyr?, you forget that Mosley came to power in the first place via threats of a breakaway in the FISA/FOCA war. Note that all his old pals from there - from fellow team-owner Ecclestone to Charlie Whiting, who was just an engineer - are now in comfy positions.

If any of you has RU accounts, there's a 15 minute clip on the 1982 driver's strike at South Africa there.
 
I completely agree with Alltidxx. What Mosley is asking the teams is of course legitimate, but unnacceptable. I don't really care or worry much about Mr. Mosley's F1. In my view, Ferrari is strong enough to go anywhere and I don't doubt that if they go for a Le Mans project, then the ELMS and ALMS will become the world pinnacle of motorsports.

I am going to follow Le Mans as I have been doing for many years. I am going to Algarve for the ELMS race this year. I know many people will be there, but I can only imagine what would happen if among the Audis and Astons and Peugeots we would also have a team of red Ferrari LMP1s. It would be crazy, and the crowds would get immense.

A breakaway series is a lot more difficult to set up, but it isn't impossible. And I guess Mosley's days are numbered inside the FIA if this happens. That's good, in my view.

I had a discussion with a friend about this last night - after I read about this new deadline for today and realized what it means - and he said "you know, Mosley will survive this crisis, even if there is a breakaway series. He won't have the support of many european federations, but he didn't need it when he overcame the sex scandal, with all the votes from African and probably Asian federations".

Fair point, I guess, but what if the european federations this time act a bit stronger and don't just "vote" inside the FIA? What if, as an example, the italian federation leaves the FIA entirely? What if a few other (european) federations follow them? What if a new international motorsports federation is created?

Wild thinking I guess, but at this point in time, with the teams having a deadline set for today, and this deadline meaning "unconditional surrender" (with an after the fact promised "reasonable" discussion of the regulations, provided all teams - including newcomers - agree with the outcome), I think every scenario is possible.
 
If it stands between Mosley highway or breakaway series then I prefer seeing a breakaway series. Best thing would be if Mosley started agreeing on compromise solution but the latest events rather point in the opposite direction.
As previously stated, a brekaway series is doomed. Firstly, fifteen races could not be organised in the space of just six months considering that FOM holds the rights to the "Grand Prix" title and the races; a FOTA-led series would not be able to hold races on those circuits, and I doubt many of the remaining ones would be ready or considered safe enough. Secondly, FOTA is made up of the teams that race. If they are racing, they cannot also be making the rule book; look at the Olympics or any other professional sport like rugby where the referee always comes from a different country to that of the competitors. You might prefer the breakaway series, but if that happens, the breakaway series will die as sure as the sun rises of a morning. Right now, a rival series is the worst possible thing for the sport. You don't want Formula One to die, do you? Because the way you're going, you're killing it faster than Mosley ever could.

You're expecting Mosley to start bending over backwards, but he can't do that. There are just three or four days left until things have to be sorted out, and there's probably still a lot of negoiations to get through. Mosley is offering the teams the opportunity to join now and cement their places in the 2010 World Championship and then negotiate. Once they're in, they're in. He's conceding a huge advantage here because the teams will always be able to remind him that they are there, they are unified and that the 2010 season will not go ahead without them. Like I said, you're letting your dislike of Mosley and his previous judgements get in the way of the fact that this is a good thing.
 
I'm not sure about the lack of circuits "safe enough". There are lots of circuits that can host F1 tests because they are "safe enough" but don't have the money needed to pay whatever Bernie Ecclestone wants for them to host a F1 race (and taxpayers in europe an NA aren't like the Bahrain ones). Do we have a french GP this year? Do we have a portuguese GP this year? Do we have a canadian GP this year? Do we have an american GP this year? Will we have a german GP next year? Will we have a japanese GP next year? Is Monaco tied to Bernie for next year? In that case, can Prince Albert pay whatever he needs to pay to BE to get rid of the FIA-F1 race, and host the FOTA-F1 race instead? Can he host both races or is that a breach of contract? I sincerely don't know, to tell you the truth, but ...

... I don't think there's a problem of shortage of "safe enough" circuits. The real problem would be the enormous amount of work needed to get everything up and running.
 
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